Mazzer Super Jolly doserless modification

[PheasantCreek]

Here is a topic I would like to chat about! Now Dan-Dan-The-Grinder-Man has made all sorts of mods to his grinder. I'm sure some of you other folks have as well.

Any mods you think were really great mods and some not so great? How about the ultimate mod of going doserless? What has been your experience in mod'ing your grinder?

[lino]

I'm actually working on a doserless attachment.

With any luck I'll have a prototype next week.

The final intent will be to have it available for sale in kit form for any Mazzer (which means different versions for mini - SJ - major)

Anyway, I don't want to blab too much more because there are still many obstacles between a prototype and production...


ciao

lino

[HB]

We want pictures!!!

PS: For those who may have missed it, you can read more about Lino's workshop in The Mind and Machines of Verna Design.

[shadowfax]

I'm definitely a potential customer. what do you suppose the time frame is, Lino?

[lino]

Heh,

That's the million dollar question, isn't it?

The short answer is not very soon.
From the hip, I'd say after June and before the end of the year...

I do hope to distribute a few protptypes for evaluation before then however.

One of the issues I'm dealing with is what to offer, and how.
For example. I could make it have a switch near the spout so the PF would turn on the grinder. That adds cost. Do I make it optional? That's more difficult on my end...

Anyway, we're testing the first prototype on Friday, and there'll be some comments and pics posted from that.

ciao

lino

[shadowfax]

I'd love to evaluate one!

I made my own chute with a martini shaker and a dremel tool, styled after twomartinis' idea (he's from coffeegeek). I guess from that perspective, I'm not in that much of a hurry to get a new hopper, though I would love to see what kind of functionality yours will offer over Noll's (twomartinis').

[lino]

Well, I gave the first prototype to Dan today for evaluation....

Let me note, this is not a "pre-production" part, it is more of a "test-of-concept" . This also means production units (if this gets there) will look very different. (the hole exposing the windings will be covered then too)

I want to find out things like:

• how evenly do the grounds come out?
• is it hard to clean? Where?
• how big a mess does it make? (how far around the grinder gets dirty)
• is it easier than a doser?
• do you want to have a PF "fork" to hold the PF in place?
• do you use this, or are you going back to your other girnder? Why?

etc.

Here's the pics...







Lemme know what you think.

I'm sure Dan will have plenty of "constructive" criticism soon...
... like "Gimme back my doser!"


ciao

lino

[framey]

Perhaps a straight rather than curved dosing tube would be better?
It would be easier to clean ie poke something up, and grounds would meet very little resistance.

Just a thought.

[NewEnglandCliff]

Hey Lino,

Gotta laud your willingness to tackle these espresso issues.

I've had both doser and doserless grinders and, for those of us who only pour for ourselves, doserless is the way to go. I bought a Macap M4 to replace my Innova doserless mainly to have a better grinder. While I can live with either, the doserless is less work. As framey pointed out, cleaning out the chute is the main issue. If you only use the grinder for a shot a day you'll always want to clean the chute out after each use, regardless of which type you have.

With that in mind, it looks like your prototype would be difficult to clean. Visibility is important, as well. The ideal chute would be clear. Do you work with plastic? IMHO, regardless of the chute material or its shape, a snap in, snap on, or slide over design would facilitate the most user friendly cleaning of the orifice. A shorter upper portion of the doser (roof), with a longer lower one (floor) would also make access with a brush easier, as well as viewing the remaining grinds. On a semi-permanently attached chute a hinged roof would be perfect. That would allow the easiest access to the port with something like a blower bulb with a brush on the end (what I use), and it wouldn't much matter whether the material was opaque or not. Plus the roof could be longer if a short one meant flying grinds. I have an idea for a steel chute I can draw up and send you when I send your check (got your package), if you like. I'll email you tomorrow evening.

A momentary-on switch would be a real plus, either portafilter activated or finger activated. On my Macap it's virtually a necessity, as the power switch is hard to activate with one hand so that the grinder doesn't move to the side. Having a doserless attachment would be a 3 hand job.

Dolce Vita,

Cliff

[shadowfax]

I agree with most of what's been said. I think the curvature of this tube will contribute to severe problems of stale grinds building up both in the "orifice" or chute between the burr housing and the outside of the machine and the actual main chute itself, and to problems of making it difficult/impossible to clean out with a brush.

In my opinion, a doserless chute needs 2 holes in it. here's why:

One hole has to be rather small. it needs to point downwards, flat. This hole, of course, is to hold the portafilter up to, so it also needs to be close to the fork, where users will place their portafilters. This hole must be the size of the portafilter (58 mm), or preferably a little bit smaller so that users can move the portafilter around under the chute as grinds fall into it to distribute them more evenly. Your design facilitates this hole inasmuch as it points downward and appears to be a little bit smaller than the diameter of a portafilter.

It's very important that there be another hole to access, though. This one is for user access. For users who grind per shot, it's key that all or nearly all of the grinds come out of the entire chute from the burr housing on. The only way to facilitate this, short of using a vacuum cleaner, is to allow users to brush out the inner chute. To that end, there needs to be this second hole that faces upwards (so users can see what they are doing and access the inner chute with a brush). To facilitate this, it's preferable that this hole be considerably larger.

I have seen two excellent solutions to this so far that might help you design a more workable prototype. This thread details how to make one from a cup. it's ultimately a slightly too open design on the top with a bottom hole that's a little too small, but notice how easy it is to access the inner chute:


Another doserless design that's probably near-perfect is the Mazzer Mini E chute:



This design is perhaps ideal. it's only flaw is that mazzer stupidly added a useless electronic dual setting timer that somehow justifies them charging another $250 for the machine. The chute, however, is very well designed. It has the small hole on the bottom, and has a big hole on the top (with a lid) to allow users to easily access the chute and inner chute for cleaning purposes. One problem that might arise with the design is that the cylinder section is a bit short, making the hole in the bottom open far over the fork. Also, I've heard criticisms from Mini E users that the hole is a little too small as well.

I think it would be a simple matter (speaking from my ignorance, though) to design a similar chute and correct for some of mazzer's flaws. If you could find or fashion such a funnel with the same diameter as the doser, people would be able to use the doser lids they currently own to cover it (or perhaps chris could just buy some of those mazzer lids for those who want to buy an extra or don't already own one. once the funnel is made, you would just need an opening for the inner chute and screw holes for mounting, and then of course a backplate, which is where you may run into problems from the different housing sizes....

finally, regarding clear plastic, I do not think that's a good way to go. Plastic inherently lends a cheapy feel to any appliance; It is less reliable and more prone to "aesthetic damages" like scratches, etc. Your best bet will definitely be stainless steel/aluminum/some other non-corroding metal. It just wouldnt do to put a clear plastic dongle on a Mazzer!

good luck!

[NewEnglandCliff]

finally, regarding clear plastic, I do not think that's a good way to go. Plastic inherently lends a cheapy feel to any appliance; It is less reliable and more prone to "aesthetic damages" like scratches, etc.

I could argue all of your points on plastic, but stainless does have an air of quality about.

An entirely different approach, and I like it!

Been a long time since I've been in Norman. All I can remember is the girls.

[lino]

Very good input. I can certainly see that I underestimated the cleaning needs on that first round.

I'll take another crack at it, and you can expect the next to be quite different...

One thing I am still waffling about is whether to stick to a simple chute, albeit, not curved and with full access for cleaning, or to what appears to me to be a little more complex (or let me say, less simple) and have a chamber and funnel type system -- a al Mini E.

Then, being able to make these efficiently, repeatably, and in qty with the manufacturing means at my disposal is the next challenge....

ciao

[HB]

Lino,

Last year I wrote a few words about the Mazzer Mini Electronic that may apply (link):

Every review I've read about this grinder just raves and raves. So needless to say, I was anxious to see what all the excitement was about. At first glance it appears to be a $200 funnel accessory for the stock Mazzer Mini, plus some touchpad buttons. After a few uses, the pricing still seems excessive, but I see why owners are so pleased -- Mazzer nailed a great doserless design.

To fill the portafilter, you place it in the MME's cradle and press the single or double doser button atop the funnel. In about 12 seconds, a perfectly centered pyramid of grinds fills the basket. For those of us who have resigned ourselves to the "left throw" tendency of most doser grinders, watching this spectacle is a small miracle (indeed, geeks are impressed by the darnest things).

The burrs and carrier on the MME are larger than its Mini sibling (64mm versus 58mm), although both share the same-sized housing. That means the MME's exit chute is shorter, which allows less room for grinds to hang up. The finger guard is an angled stainless-steel grate. It looks like it may be dual-purpose, i.e., preventing curious fingers from entering the chute and also dispersing the grinds more evenly for their death-spiral to the bottom of the funnel. I didn't test my theory by removing it.

Mazzers are built rock solid -- so well in fact that I believe a warranty is an unnecessary gesture. The MME, as nice as it may be, complicates the reliability picture by adding electronics. I have no data to support the assertion, but in general I prefer simple switches to fancy buttons, if only because I can repair them myself if need be. Quibbling aside, if the MME were available at the time I upgraded from the Rancilio Rocky DL, I would have seriously considered it despite the eye-bulging pricetag.

So, fabrication issues aside, a funnel-shaped doser might be the best option both for easy of cleaning / access and even dispersion. But hey, I haven't even tried the elephant nose prototype, so I could be wrong.

PS: Terry or Dave, does the fancy-pants funnel from the MME fit the Super Jolly? That would be a nice OEM option, although I shudder to think of the cost...

[framey]

Just a couple of links to Ditting grinders with doserless chutes:

http://www.appliancemaintenance.c.../dittingke640b.jpg

http://www.appliancemaintenance.c...ng-KF-1800-big.jpg

Ditting seem to have gone with a straight tubular dosing attachment.

[shadowfax]

http://www.toledometalspinning.co...pers/priceList.asp

This place looks like they will mass produce hoppers.... If you got a big batch that had the exact same diameter as the doser, then you would just need to drill out the holes for the screws, make a hole for the inner chute, and if the size is right, our old lids will fit. I think you might also need to cut the bottoms of the hoppers.

Of course, that's a bit less of a "custom" job, but seems like it would be quite, quite effective.

[cannonfodder]

I could argue all of your points on plastic, but stainless does have an air of quality about.

An entirely different approach, and I like it!

Been a long time since I've been in Norman. All I can remember is the girls.

Do not forget that plastic has a nasty habit of forming a static charge when something like ground coffee slides down it. Aesthetically, I prefer polished stainless or chrome.

[shadowfax]

Lino, any updates on your progress with the chute? what have you discovered?

[Teme]

I am looking to upgrade from my Rocky doserless and find the Mazzer Mini E a very tempting alternative. However, it is way overpriced. The $250 price difference between the Mini and the Mini E is so excessive that I have even considered the doser model of the Mini (and Macap).

I would therefore be very interested in hearing updates on Lino's doserless mod to the Mini. BTW, if you are going for a spout instead of a funnel, how about a quick release for taking it off completely for cleaning? Someone did such a mod on a Rocky doserless (posted on CG) and it seemed like a good idea to me. I guess a quick release would work with the funnel as well.

If only someone could convince Mazzer to do the Mini with Mini E's funnel, PF rest and PF activated grind (from the Mod B), while leaving out the electronics and a big chunk of the Mini E's price. I hear that the finger guard in the funnel needs to be retained in place for proper grind distribution (and/or elimination of static) - some sort of a quick release for that would also be nice... ...I also posted on CG on this at: http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines/148526

Br,
Teme

[lino]

Hey Guys,

Progress? Well....
I've been pretty busy with other issues lately so I haven't had as much time as I would have liked to work on this....

As I told Dan earlier, I've taken to carrying an empty SJ shell around the house with me, to keep it in front of me.
That keeps me thinking of possibilities...

The real problem is coming up with an attractive solution that fills the holes left by the doser. Particularly in light of the fact that some of the holes are on curves, others arent, and "molding" sheetmetal takes some very expensive molds...
Then there are the different body styles (even just among the SJs).

Straight sections with sharp bends are really the only economically effective sheetmetal shapes for this situation (as evidenced by most E-61 prosumer machine bodies)...

Anyway, I'm working on it....

On a related note, let me ask what this group prefers in terms of "exhaust" design.

Funnel or chute?

Assume either would be easily cleanable. I'm asking from an aesthetic standpoint primarily, but if anyone knows of issues with dose or distribution from one method or the other, I'd be interested in that too...

ciao

lino

[Teme]

Hi Lino,

On a related note, let me ask what this group prefers in terms of "exhaust" design.

Funnel or chute?

Assume either would be easily cleanable. I'm asking from an aesthetic standpoint primarily, but if anyone knows of issues with dose or distribution from one method or the other, I'd be interested in that too...

Between a straight sided/sharp edged spout and a round funnel (like that of a Mini E), the latter sounds more attractive. I have no experience with a grinder that has the funnel design, but looking at the Mini E, it might be a slightly less messy design (as in less ground coffee ending up on the countertop).

Regarding the difficulties in coming up with the design, I understand that there are limitations on what can be achieved on a reasonable budget. I guess that's why a really nice doserless mod is not available. It is great that someone is willing to take the time and put in the effort to try and produce one, though

As regards dose distribution, I saw an interesting thread on another forum regarding the Mini E's funnel design. Here's the link: http://www.toomuchcoffee.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1326

A couple of quotes from that thread:

"the grounds are thown out of the burss, past the antistatic grid thing, hit the funnel and fall into the basket. During this trip they seem to get slightly sorted, with clumps of fines ending up slightly more over towards the front (towards handle)"

"I've experienced the same size sorting too. One of the reasons I kept the model B was that I can remove the plastic cover on the funnel mid-grind and watch what happens (also makes clearing the anti-static screen easier and its interesting in a geekish sort of way....).
Anyway, in order to get to the screen I removed the deflector plate and have noticed the size sorting thing more. As the grounds shoot out of the chute (ho ho) the lighter particles travel further and hit the front of the funnel (the side nearest to you) and slide down witht he heavier ones dropping earlier"

Br,
Teme