Stop me, I'm about to pull the trigger on a Ponte Vecchio Lusso! - Page 2

[mborkow]

for what it is worth, this thread has stopped me from purchasing the Lusso...I want to see what 1st-Line does about this incident before I proceed with my purchase...in the meantime, I've got my eye on a used Cremina...it would be the same price as the Lusso, but it is now 25 years old!

[peacecup]

When I bought my Export new it was the same price as a used Cremina ($400 US, 2005). My machine has certainly not appreciated as fast! I went with the new machine because I wanted something that would work right out of the box, with no restoration or repair. I'm a capable, but not very patient mechanic, and I knew I would not want to wait to use my new lever machine. I just about went crazy when it was out if commission 24 hours for new seals the other day.

As it turns out I've been very happy with the 45-mm spring lever - I like it more than I thought I would. I finally got a chance to try a 49-mm manual lever (La Pavoni) a while ago, and I found it far less forgiving, albeit very capable of great espresso. I also have a manual Caravel, and it is also less forgiving. I've never even SEEN a real live Cremina!

I've written elsewhere that I suppose the Cremina to be built to finer tolerances than are the Ponte Vecchios. That said, a PV will last a lifetime with the most minimal of maintenance.

The big difference will be spring vs. manual - there are advantages to both, and to each his own. I do home to try a Cremina myself sometime, but currently I really love the spring lever.

PC

[mogogear]

Jack- I did my best to try to ship a "test" unit Cremina to you.... but you're a hard man to talk into things
I bet your PV will be the last man standing some day.....You have a lot of good Karma with espresso machines...

[peacecup]

MOGO! Here's to you. I just couldn't accept a "loaner" Cremina - I would feel too bad if anything happened. I missed my chance when they were $300 or less, but I will get to try one sometime. I loved the Pavoni anyway, and someday I'd like to own one of those as well.

With your rebuilding skills you would have had a good laugh when I pulled out the Subaru jack to try compress the spring and replace the piston in the PV. Bad idea, and the next day I got a C-clamp and all was well. But I had to race over to the U in the AM, grab the Caravel, and race home for the AM cappa before the hardware store opened.

PC

[peacecup]

BTW, I saw a nice collection of steam engines in a store in Stockholm recently. There is a lot of good old used stuff laying around these parts.

PC

[mborkow]

I went with the new machine because I wanted something that would work right out of the box, with no restoration or repair. I'm a capable, but not very patient mechanic, and I knew I would not want to wait to use my new lever machine.

the used Cremina at which I am looking has been refurbished. The following work has been done:
- Every Seal Replaced, including the boiler seal.
- New Group Portafilter Gasket
- Scrupulously cleaned and manually descaled
- All components inside inspected cleaned and polished
- Group lubricated upon assembly
I think I should be able to use this Cremina right out of the box...

[peacecup]

I also think its easier to replace the seals on the Cremina. The spring in the PV is very strong, and makes for an interesting piston re-insertion experience. Also, a used Cremina will hold its value if not increase, whereas the new PV will likely drop a little after its used.

All that said, there is something to be said for the consistency of the spring lever...

[mborkow]

man...i'm really not sure what to do: get the Lusso or the used Cremina...I know the Cremina has a rock solid rep...but it is 25 years old...

[rawman]

I'd suggest both!

[Cathi]

I wouldn't be off put by the age of the machine (cremina). If it looks as good as it sounds, I'd go for the Cremina. If you're unhappy with it, you can certainly re-sell it and then get a lusso. I seriously doubt you'd have any trouble getting your money out of it.

[1st-line]

I just have the best luck with these lever machines. First, two failed Gaggias, and now, a Lusso that arrives with a severely dented drip tray, a lever about 10 degrees off center, and enough water stains and other splotches of something that just leave me convinced that this machine was more than tested. That would be a bit too much splashing for just a test.

Oh, and did I mention that the boiler appears to be mounted off in some direction? (Doesn't look vertical) I'll post pictures a bit later. I'm waiting for a call back from a 1st-Line tech.

Dan,

I am sorry to see that this purchase did not arrive to your satisfaction and our intentions. Please note that I have been on vacation since August 5th, and I will be returning on this Monday, August 17th. On top of this, I know some of my other employees have been on vacation or been out sick during this time period. Therefore, I apologize if you did not receive a call back this past Friday.

Please also note the machines are inspected before they leave. This is performed just before the grey Instapak is added to protect the unit from damage in transit. However, it is very evident that my staff took a shortcut and did not double box the Ponte Vecchio box. This definitely caused the drip tray damage. This is the easy fix.

The hard fix is the boiler shifting. This has happened to two other PVs in the last month - not cheap since 1st-line eats the cost as the carriers insurance makes excuses for everything now. This is where I am uncertain how any packaging can stop the inertial forces of shipping to cause the boiler to shift.

As for the limescale, this is how they come from the factory. They do not drain all the water from the boiler, and the residual turns into this. All the units have this as well as the water stains that come from leakage out of the boiler during shipping. Most likely, the boiler shifting caused a break in one of the internal pipes. At this time, we do not test the units with water because the DOA due to manufacturer's defect has been less than 1% of shipments.

So far, we have had no returns on PV machines. The 2 other machines that were damaged have not been returned yet. So, we have no used units to ship out.

Finally, please do NOT use the machine as another poster suggested. This will 100% ruin our ability to even file a damage claim, nevermind being successful in acquiring an insurance payment from the carrier. Please call me on Monday morning so we can get this squared away for you. Once again, I apologize this happened.

[aindfan]

Finally, please do NOT use the machine as another poster suggested. This will 100% ruin our ability to even file a damage claim, nevermind being successful in acquiring an insurance payment from the carrier. Please call me on Monday morning so we can get this squared away for you. Once again, I apologize this happened.

Jim, not to worry, as I said earlier today the machine has been packed up since last Friday night. As you can imagine, it was very tempting even to pull the lever, but I read all over these forums that that's a bad idea because the water acts as a lubricant.

I couldn't imagine that shipping could cause that kind of dent, but I know your staff wouldn't have taken a hammer to the drip tray cover and front panel. The box appeared to be in flawless condition, but a blunt bump must have been able to cause some of that.

I may try to call you about the possibility of a cross-shipping arrangement - I'll think about it a bit.

Thanks for your reply both here and on the phone. Looking forward to the resolution!

Dan

[mogogear]

BTW, I saw a nice collection of steam engines in a store in Stockholm recently. There is a lot of good old used stuff laying around these parts.

PC

Cool thanks for the observation!! I hope you all are doing so well..Our thoughts are with you so far away..( well Juneau wasn't exactly in our backyard!!

[mogogear]

Jim and 1st line is as good as they come!! Take it to the bank!

[aindfan]

Dan, if it were me, after all this tsouris, I'd be inclined to drop espresso and switch to scotch...

r-gordon-7

Sigh.

Though FedEx picked up the package on Wednesday, everyone I've spoken to at 1st-line has echoed Jim's strict policy that no new machine is sent out before the old one comes back, and FedEx damage claims usually take about a week. So at this point, essentially, I'm being held responsible (time-wise) for FedEx's major screw up in the first shipment. I fail to understand why this is the case: 1st-Line has clear evidence (from FedEx) that the old Lusso is no longer in my possession, so why am I stuck in the middle of a dispute between 1st-Line and FedEx?*

While part of this issue is caused by the timing of my vacation last week, it's still *quite* unfortunate that my machine, which should have been up and running within two days of the order, will take three or four weeks to get here in working order.

I'll let the reader decide why I quoted Richard's post above.

*I write this because the situation is frustrating, not because I have a misunderstanding of how much value is at risk of simply being written off by 1st-Line.

[HB]

I fail to understand why this is the case: 1st-Line has clear evidence (from FedEx) that the old Lusso is no longer in my possession, so why am I stuck in the middle of a dispute between 1st-Line and FedEx?

I've heard "returned equipment" horror stories from resellers. Equipment loosely tossed in a box with only newspaper as padding (they had already discarded the original box). Boiler full when dropped off at the shipper in the dead of winter. Various parts missing (portafilters, baskets, owner's manual). While I sympathize with your frustration, if I were in a reseller's shoes, I would not ship another new unit unless it was paid in full, then I would issue a credit once the original unit arrived intact. If indeed there were no shipping issues, there would be no cost to the consumer since their card would be credited long before the payment was due.

[r-gordon-7]

if I were in a reseller's shoes, I would not ship another new unit unless it was paid in full, then I would issue a credit once the original unit arrived intact. If indeed there were no shipping issues, there would be no cost to the consumer since their card would be credited long before the payment was due.

That's the way I handled (over the phone) my return to WLL of the defective Gaggia Achille refurb in exchange for the Gaggia Factory refurb - they initially said they'd e-mail me a return shipping label to print out and would then ship the Gaggia Factory to me as soon as they'd received & checked out the returned Achille - I suggested how 'bout instead charging my credit card right then over the phone for the Gaggia Factory, shipping it to me right away & then crediting my credit card for the Achille once they'd received it and checked it out... They immediately said, "sure"... Worked very well for both sides.

r-gordon-7

[aindfan]

If indeed there were no shipping issues, there would be no cost to the consumer since their card would be credited long before the payment was due.

Probably the case, but if not, that would be a hefty bill. I'd rather wait than end up spending twice the amount.

The waiting game continues...

[peacecup]

This must be a bit disappointing for you. I'm sorry to say that if 1rst line did not double box the machine then they would appear to be at least partly to blame for the damage. Making you wait until FedEx figures things out does not seem to be the best customer service policy. I'm surprised, because I thought this would all be resolved by now.

Well, when it finally does arrive it will be worth the wait. I waited 8 weeks for PonteVecchio to get a 220 heating element and gaskets to me (fortunately I had the Caravel). When I finally got the machine running I was quickly reminded of how much I love the espresso from the PV.

Hang in there,

PC

[orphanespresso]

I can't say for sure how Fedex handles insurance claims, but with a UPS account, I know within a very short time whether the claim will be paid or not. Often within 24 hours of when the package is picked up. Once the claim is approved, I usually (and thankfully it happens very, very seldom!) only have about 1 week for the check from UPS to arrive.