Still can't froth milk properly

[nixter]

I have the NS Oscar which as some of you know produces professional steam from it's four hole professional tip. I can't get it to do anything except separate my milk. I get plenty of big foam on top but only watery textured milk underneath. I've tried plugging 3 of the 4 holes with toothpics as some suggest but this made no difference. I am using skim milk however, could this be my problem? I'm also using a small milk jug and only enough milk for 1 latte. I don't usually make more than one at a time.

nik

[HB]

I am using skim milk however, could this be my problem?

Skim milk does separate faster, which can lead to frothed milk with a dry cap. Could you post a video of your preparation? That would help diagnose the problem.

[nixter]

No can do on the video.

I went out and bought some 3% milk and tried again just now. Still the same, garbage. I use a thermometer to make sure the milk doesn't go above 160. I have a four hole tip so I don't know if I'm getting the right kind of movement happening. I read a "how to" on this forum that said the tip should be in the center, straight up and down for multi hole tips. So as it stands I can make hot milk or I can make plenty of hard foam that sits on the top but not the nice velvety milk. When I pour it in the espresso it just turns everything into a soupy mess. I'm only used about 6 ounces of milk when I do this so maybe that combined with too much steam power is the problem. It seems I only have about 10-12 seconds total before the thermometer tells me I'm nearing 160.

My technique so far has been to keep the tip near the top to get the sucking noise until my temp gets to about 110, then I lower it and heat things up to about 150 and shut off the steam. Then I swirl and bonk and pour my thin, hot milk into the beautiful espresso shot I've just pulled. Wasteful

[danetrainer]

The Oscar is a "steaming machine" quite impressive with its stock 4 hole tip ( I had a Faema Compact commercial machine here at the time, and the Oscar outperformed it in steaming in every category)...but I think that plugging off the other holes somewhat defeats some of the process of making microfoam. The diameter of your remaining hole being very large (mine measured 2mm or .080") and without the swirling action or an opposite hole I think you may be getting inferior results.

What I did (as I steam small quantities, and use skim milk also) is purchase one of the two hole tips from Chris Coffee, and the Oscar uses the standard 10mm thread size. There is also a 'Gold Pro' tip out there you may want to look at it too. I ended up adjusting the hole size on the two hole tip a tiny bit larger...but really isn't necessary.

[HB]

Oh well, no video. That will make it much harder. Some general suggestions: Use very cold milk, store the milk pitcher from the freezer, and use more milk. More milk volume means more time to texturize (mix) the milk; try a 20 ounce pitcher. Many apparently hopeless pours can be saved if you have good swirl and thunk action. This video from Latte Art Challenge(d) demonstrates how to beat a milk cottonball into milk chrome:



My guess is you're injecting too much air early on and then overcompensating by burying the tip without mixing. Slowing down the whole process with a larger pitcher, cold milk, and an icy pitcher will give you more time for corrective mixing.

[lberg]

I'm still pretty much an espresso noob , but I'll try explaining what I do. I work at my local coffeeshop, and they have a Grimac La Vittoria 2-group, which has 4-hole steam tips. I don't want to make any generalizations, because your tip might be different than "mine," but I'll try to explain what I do to get OK microfoam.... (note: I say "ok" because, like I said, I'm a noob and I am very far from excellent microfoam.) I should probably warn you that since this is in a coffee shop, I'm using upwards of 38 oz steaming pitchers (which, to me, seems kind of counter-intuitive, since our largest drink size is 16 oz). So because I'm working with large steaming pitchers, what I'm writing might not work for you.

Anyway, with the 4-hole tip, even with the commercial steaming power, I can't easily get the "standing wave of turbulence." I go for the "whirlpool" action.

As for overall wand placement, I angle the wand slightly. Not 45* from the machine or anything drastic like that--just NOT vertical. I spin the milk clockwise, so for me that means placing the tip near the right of the pitcher, facing the steam wand/machine. For stretching, I start with the tip placed right up next to the edge of the pitcher and that helps with stability. I try to get that "paper tearing" sound to varying degrees, depending on what kind of drink I'm making, so more for a capp than for a latte....Then, for the "whirling" part (which I start when the milk gets the slightest bit warm to the touch), I move the tip to about halfway between the center of the pitcher and the edge, and just barely below the surface of the milk, so that sometimes there's a "sucking/whoosh" sound, but never that "paper tearing" sound. That area seems to get the fastest whirlpool action. During the time it takes to get up to 160*, I try to get rid of all the big bubbles if there are any, by "sucking" them into the whirlpool. With the tip up next to the edge of the pitcher (in the stretching phase), the whirlpool action isn't as fast, but it's still there. Oh yeah, and, I keep the steam valve all the way open the whole time.

I'm still experimenting with wand direction/angle myself, but this is what I've had the best results with so far.

HTH.

[Beezer]

I completely agree with Iberg. I'm using a four hole tip on my Anita, and I find the best way to make microfoam is to place the tip near the right side and sort of down into the lower corner. Tilt the pitcher toward you a bit, and then surf the tip just below the surface, letting just a bit of air into the milk. Once the milk starts getting warm, sink the tip a bit lower and try to get the milk spinning in a clockwise direction. Let the milk spin until it's too hot to touch, and then shut off the steam, thunk the pitcher a couple of times, and spin the milk by hand. That should do the trick.

A video is worth a thousand words:

[lberg]

Cool. I must be on the right track
Anyway, I was re-reading my post, and saw how I sort of emphasized the speed of the whirlpool. Hopefully I won't hijack this thread too much, but I have a related question. I wonder if the speed of the whirlpool has any impact on taste/microfoam quality? With the 2-group mentioned earlier, I can get milk riding up pretty far on the sides of a ~28/30 oz straight-walled pitcher (a little less than half-full) with a pretty deep "inverted cone" created by the centrifugal force. And depending on where I put the tip, the whirlpool slows down/speeds up, just curious if it has an effect....I'll have to experiment at work tomorrow.

[ira]

No idea if this will make any sense, but here goes. I'm using a Brewtus and a small pitcher, 10 oz or so. I keep the pitcher in the freezer, fill it 1/2 full of 1% milk and start with the tip just below the surface so it sounds right, not the scream if it's too deep and not so high it get's big bubbles, I try for a continious noise. People seemto describe it as tearing. I can build volume really fast and sink the tip as soon as the volume is correct, long before the pitcher gets warm. If I find the proper spot and it swirls so all of the air gets broken up into tiny bubbles I get nice foam. If I do it perfect I have no big bubbles, but usually there's a few. I do have trouble making latte art as I seem to get 2 different kinds of foam. I occasionally use whole milk and then it gives better microfoam.

Until I figured out that I had to do it as two distinct steps, build volume as fast as possible and then incorporate the bubbles I could never get decent results. One thing is the Brewtus has a very small single hole tip and is very slow. Soon I'll have another tip with much bigger holes and I might have to discover a different method.

Ira

[nixter]

Thanks for all the help guys. I will try again in a couple days. One thing I don't understand is how I'm supposed to make the milk swirl in the jug when the 4 holes in the tip point away from each other? Wouldn't you want the steam moving in one direction in order to get the milk moving in a circular motion? I just seem to get turbulence but no swirling. I'm not giving up yet!

n

[HB]

One thing I don't understand is how I'm supposed to make the milk swirl in the jug when the 4 holes in the tip point away from each other?

Assuming you have enough steam velocity, do an end-over-end, otherwise a vertical spin as described in New Andreja owner with microfoam problem:

If you're having trouble with texturing, try creating a vortex like this:


Sorry about the quality of this diagram...

The pitcher is tilted to the left and towards you; the force of the steam wand is directed downwards and slightly towards the front and right. You should be able to get a nice "offset" vertical spin with a 20 ounce pitcher and 9 ounces of milk. With a 12 ounce pitcher, you must pay attention to avoid splattering. When done correctly, you will see the effects of the liquid rebounding off the bottom of the pitcher on the opposite side. It is not an end-over-end roil; Anita doesn't quite have enough steam for that.

[cannonfodder]

Raided my video vault. Maybe one of these will help.

[PaulM]

HB, et al, couldn't have put it better. I have found the info here invaluable in terms of getting really good microfoam. I use good ole organic whole milk (really cold) and a really cold pitcher. I'd keep my pitcher in the fridge at all times but I don't want to run the risk of it taking on a food flavour so I throw it in first thing in the morning when I get up. I generally steam enough milk for two capps and find a 20 oz jug just not quite big enough as oftentimes, the foam pours over the edge. A 32/33 oz is best I find.

Don't plug the holes w/ toothpicks. You should be able to get good results just fine w/ the stock tip but the trick is all in "surfing" the surface of the milk w/ the tip. If you can get the milk to swirl around in the jug, you're set (see diagram from other poster).

If you do happen to get soapy bubbles, give your pitcher a good bang or two on the counter and swirl it around (on the counter) for about 10-20 secs. Since following the suggested tips from here, I've had incredible results.

Good luck!

[nixter]

Well I tried again this morning and I had "some" success. I put the pitcher and milk in the freezer for about 10 minutes beforehand. I also plugged 2 holes leaving the other 2 facing in one direction open. I think the combo of these 2 things gave me more time to surf and create microfoam. I swirled and bonked afterwards and the pour went ok. A little too liquidy at first but then some decent foam. I still had a little bit of hard stuff on top though. Definitely leaps ahead of what I've been doing. More practice.

[cafeIKE]

I still had a little bit of hard stuff on top though. Definitely leaps ahead of what I've been doing. More practice.

Hard stuff, as in cheese, means it's getting too hot. If the milk has any cheesey aroma, it's definitely too hot.

I'd recommend pulling out the plugs, purchasing a gallon of milk and practising 'til you get it right.

One of the big mistakes people make with both learning to make espresso and steam milk, is being too cheap. You're gonna waste a gallon of milk, one way or another, so do it all in one go. It's much easier to learn if you do one after the other than trying to remember what you did last time, a couple days ago.

Sound is a good indicator. Dunk the tip about 1.5cm, open the valve and lower the jug until it sounds like frying bacon. Keep that sound until you've about doubled the volume, then plunge the tip and get the milk turning over. Some like to use their hands to gauge, but a thermometer is always the same.

[nixter]

Success! made some great microfoam just now. A combination of putting the milk and jug in the freezer for a bit and plugging 2 of the four holes has helped greatly. Some have said to remove the plugs but I just don't see how you're supposed to get the milk to spin or swirl when the four holes are facing away from each other. Doesn't make sense to me. I actually made a bit too much foam as I had no room to swirl/bonk at the end! I'll use a little less milk next time. Pretty happy with the progress though. I need better latte cups though as the pour height is too high on my current ones causing too much movement on initial contact.

[lberg]

Congrats! Which two holes did you plug? And how are they oriented, as discussed in this thread?

With "my" 4-hole tip, if I position the wand like in Beezer's video, then I can get a pretty nice whirlpool. Placement of the wand and even angle of the pitcher, for me, can affect how fast the whirlpool is. One time I just couldn't get the whirlpool going no matter where I put the tip, and then I tried tilting the pitcher just a little to the right and the whirlpool started almost instantly...

[seattlesetters]

I got a rare opportunity to steam milk on a 2-group Synesso Cyncra this weekend. Talk about fast! It would make 160-degree microfoam of 12oz of milk in 6.5 seconds! All had to be done by feel, because the thermometers weren't fast enough to keep up!

Anyway, the pro taught me how to do it on that beast, and now, after steaming 20-25 pitchers on the Cyncra, my Alexia is easy! The key is never getting the tip in too deep, and creating and keeping the whirlpool effect for both adding air and for heating the milk once enough air has been added. Tilting the pitcher and keeping the tip near the wall are what makes for success.

Now, I say, "Give me steaming power!"

[Starryeyedgryph]

Although you can steam only 6 oz of milk at once I would recommend that you try larger quantities until you have perfected your techniques. Until you get consistent results you should be using a minimum of 12 oz.
The way that I steam my milk to get really good froth is to dip only the very tip in around the edge of the container. As the milk begins to foam I slowly pull my pitcher down until I've expanded the milk to have as much foam as I'd like and then I slowly sink the tip into the pitcher till the milk has reached about 120 degrees on my thermometer. Depending on the speed that your thermometer registers the heat of your milk, the temperature should continue to increase after you have pulled the wand out. Anything over 160 degrees is going to scald the milk. After this if there are any larger bubbles still on top you can swirl your milk and tap it down on the counter in order to help mix and pop the bigger bubbles.

At the coffee shop that I work at we were talking about the technique of steaming milk and listening to the sounds that it makes and what sounds that we should be hearing. You can think of it as driving a stick shift and listening to the engine when it tells you that it has reached the rpm's needed in order to shift. The milk is going to be the same way and there are certain sounds you will hear, such as a screeching that will tell you that you have the wand in the wrong place, such as sinking it in too deep into cold milk. The key is slowing sinking in the wand and slowly pulling it up as you are steaming. Also, you shouldn't have to plug up the holes.
The more fat in the milk the easier it will create the frothy mixture you are looking for, but after practice you should be able to create the same effect with skim milk or any other milk substitute you are using.
Hope you are figuring this all out. And maybe I'm still too much of a novice to know what they are talking about with the whirlpool and wave action thing, but I get lots of compliments on my steamed milk.

[nixter]

Maybe you don't have to plug the holes when using a larger pitcher and more milk but with a smaller amount of milk and the power of the Oscar steam, plugging the holes makes sense I think.