Something goes wrong with extraction - please help!

[325xi]

I have my Silvia and Mazzer Mini Electronic for a while, but I can't get satisfying results. I tried different kinds of beans: freshly roasted, and packed of various grades, and I'm still having the same problem - something I'm doing is seriously wrong.

I use Espro flat tamper, and original 14g basket.

To clarify my preference - I'm trying to make lighter roast espresso.

If I set grinder to finer setting, the liquid comes very slowly, and it's thin and bitter, with no crema at all.
If I set it some coarser, but apply much more pressure then Espro suggests (otherwise it goes too fast), I get somewhat more substance in the extracted liquid, some crema (not a lot), and it's very acidic.

Both results taste no good. I'm desperate to find the reason. The results above consistent from simple Lavazza to Illy to expensive Arcaffe beans.

What am I doing wrong?

[shadowfax]

You need to try coffee that is 2-3 days out of the roaster. Coffee will be out of its prime around 8-14 days past its roasting date, and will be "decent" usually for 3, and maybe 4 weeks. As coffee ages, it loses its body and tends to become flat and then even harsh. Find a micro-roaster locally, or buy online from one that ships your coffee to you the same day as it's roasted. Your descriptions of the awful taste and total lack of crema are classic symptoms of either bad coffee or stale coffee. Considering you are buying Illy, so you know the blend is a good one, you can deduce that it's staleness.

Since you are in Canada, it may be best for you to try 49th Parallel Roasters.

[cafeIKE]

You don't mention temperature management on Silvia, one of the most inconsistent machines extant.

Check out Randy G.'s http://www.espressomyespresso.com for temperature management tips.

I once gave a nOOb complaining of similar problems some fresh coffee and told him to smell it, then smell the Illy. His description of the Illy : "Rancid vegetable oil."

Canada is a big place. 49th Parallel is almost as far from Montreal as NY is from LA.

[shadowfax]

Ian, a few years ago I was keeping my Valentina in my office at work, and some of my coworkers brought their 1 kilo tin of nitrogen-packed Illy in to have their "tin-opening ceremony" wherein they stand around the tin and smell the "aroma" as it shoots out in a nitrogenated emission. It was awful. As were the shots (they didn't think so). Then I introduced them, If I recall right, to some Ambrosia, and some Coffee from Milagro's down in Las Cruces, NM (Bernie's shop)

Very different stuff.

[325xi]

Thanks for the replies.

I tried day-before roasted. The results were slightly different, but still of the same pattern. I'm thinking about problem in finding the right grind. The problem with fresh roasted beans from local coffee-shops is that all recommended places offer dark-roast if I only mention "espresso". I tried to explain that I'm looking for lighter roast european-style espresso, but it didn't help. I just stopped buying there.

My attempts with Illy and Arcaffe beans were of equal results (the roast is perfect IMO), even though I bough them from different places. Can all be stalled?
After all, I know people manage to get more then decent espresso out of packed coffee.


Temperature management - I'm yet to concentrate on it, but I happened to push the button both 20sec after the light goes off, and 20sec after it went on. Go figure.

Can it be wrong grind? How can I make sure I'm doing right?

[Elbasso]

If tamping harder improves the body of the shot then I am guessing that you're experiencing serious channeling due to poor distribution. On the finer grind this could lead to the water just traveling through tiny channels in the puck, leaving most of the coffee non-extracted. The over-extraction of the coffee around the channels leads to bitterness and no crema. Try to focus on your distribution. Many people, including myself, have also had better shots when overfilling the basket with the Silvia. The good thing about overfilling is that it'll also reduce the channeling.

[shadowfax]

Have you read about the Weiss Distribution Technique? It basically involves stirring up the grinds to break any clumps and even out the distribution of the coffee prior to pulling a shot. You might try this method, and if your shots improve, you will know that you have been distributing the coffee wrong and that you need to work on your distribution technique.

[cafeIKE]

I tried day-before roasted.

A bit fresh. Espresso sweet spot is 4 to 8, with some 10 to 14, days old

[325xi]

Right on! I do have channeling rather often. Since Mazzer Electronic has inherent problems with distribution, I eventually started to grind into a separate cup, stir it, and spoon coffee to the basket, trying to achieve, well, even distribution. Apparently this method didn't prove to be very effective.

But what is the right way to go with grinding in my case - towards coarser with harder tampering, or finer?

Also, (sorry for dumb Q) what is a right overfilling? How much may I overfill? If I put too much into a basket, I won't be able to normally connect portafiler to the machine...

[shadowfax]

If you have a scale, you can try dosing to 16 or 17 grams, I think. I wouldn't go much over that in a double basket.

It's best if you can get a funnel that fits over the portafilter basket so that you can stir right into that. Stirring into a cup and pouring is not likely to yield consistent results. A yogurt cup is the usual recommendation for a funnel. If you get the right one, you can cut the bottom out, and it will slide right into the neck of the basket. Mess free and easy, albeit a little time-consuming.

[mmm]

If you have a scale, you can try dosing to 16 or 17 grams, I think. I wouldn't go much over that in a double basket.

When people talk about dosing X amount of grams, does this mean you weigh out 17 grams of beans and throw them into the hopper and dose? Or are you measuring the actual amount that comes out of the doser after you grind them?

[HB]

Or are you measuring the actual amount that comes out of the doser after you grind them?

Yes.

[325xi]

All right, assuming I improved distribution - how to determine the correct grind - what indicators to look for?

[Elbasso]

what is a right overfilling? How much may I overfill? If I put too much into a basket, I won't be able to normally connect portafiler to the machine...

You could try something like in this video:

All right, assuming I improved distribution - how to determine the correct grind - what indicators to look for?

-Coffee starts flowing after 6-8 seconds. If it comes quicker, tighten the grind.
-After 25 seconds you should have 1,5 to 2oz (say 50 to 60ml)
-Coffee has a nice viscosity and should not go pale before the 25 sec mark

When people talk about dosing X amount of grams, does this mean you weigh out 17 grams of beans and throw them into the hopper and dose? Or are you measuring the actual amount that comes out of the doser after you grind them?

The only proper way to do it would be measuring what goes into the basket. Because of convenience many people seem to weigh the beans and throw them into an empty hopper. This is of course less accurate and will lead to a more uneven grind due to the popcorning effect of the last beans dancing on the burrs.

[cannonfodder]

You want want to read Tamp and Dose Techniques Digest. There are also several threads about the Silvia. To list a few from the FAQs and Favorites Digest:

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11

[mmm]

Yes.

Sorry if this sounds obvious, but how exactly are you measuring the amount using a scale if one is dosing into the portafilter after grinding? Unless you are dosing into a bowl that's on a scale and then transferring that to the portafilter.

[HB]

If you have a large scale, you can weigh the portafilter before and after. If you don't, remove the retainer spring from the portafilter and weigh the coffee in the basket. Since there's no spring, the basket will drop in easily. That's what I did in Stockfleths Move for Dummies:

[JimG]

Sorry if this sounds obvious, but how exactly are you measuring the amount using a scale if one is dosing into the portafilter after grinding? Unless you are dosing into a bowl that's on a scale and then transferring that to the portafilter.

I don't often weigh doses. But when I feel the need, I tare the scale for the empty basket, grind/dose into the basket, then weigh again. Then carefully lock the full basket back into the PF for tamping.

Jim

[Randy G.]

The best place to start is with good coffee. Finding a local coffee shop that roasts would be a good idea.... Stale coffee will never give good results.

Try the dose test first- Lock the portafilter into place on the brewgroup, then remove it. Is the coffee disturbed? At the very most, there should be a slight mark in the center from the screw that hold the shower screen.

Once you have that settled, try using the WDT (Weiss Distribution Technique). Use a dissection needle or even a sewing needle stuck into a pencil's eraser, and stir the coffee once it is dosed into the portafilter. This will break up any clumps and assure even distribution.

Within reason, I am finding that tamping force has little effect on the extraction- it is far more important to get the proper amount of coffee, evenly distributed. Anything between about 15 pounds to about 50 pounds will give about the same results with most machines.

If you get that all working, keep grinding finer until nothing comes out for about 10 seconds, then work back, a little more coarse at a time.

If Silvia does not have a PID, do a search for temp surfing info.

[325xi]

Tried WDT (at least I think it's WDT ), stirring coffee in a basket with a toothpick, and I still have channeling. Do you guys have any video with WDT, just to make sure I do it right?

Sometimes I see pro-barista on TV - I couldn't notice any tricks or any special efforts for distribution - and it works for them every time... WTH?