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So I went to Starbucks yesterday...

Want to talk espresso but not sure which forum? If so, this is the right one.

Link to "So I went to Starbucks yesterday..."by mateo on Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:45 pm

Actually it was a Starbucks cafe inside Barnes and Noble. It's only been a few months or so since I've really dug in to espresso research (in large part due to this site) but I'm getting up to speed pretty quickly on the proper techniques and such of espresso making.

As I like to do lately, I carefully watched the "barista" behind the counter go about pulling my shot and putting together a "Cappuccino". Wow. So he removes the portafilter from a previous shot and knocks the puck into his knockbox. As you might expect there is still a bit of grind and what not left in the basket. Much to my surprise he does not rinse out the basket, he doesn't wipe it out--nothing. He proceeds to dose some espresso from the grinder right on top of the muck that is still in there. Now mind you, he doesn't grind anything for my shot. Whatever he dosed from the grinder was left there since who knows when (It was slow at the time and I didn't see him make anything for several minutes) so, so much for the grind the beans seconds before the shot is pulled. So he doses out the ground coffee and again much to my surprise he doesn't level it at all or better yet--he doesn't tamp it at all???? Now mind you I've been to this place several times before and they always tamp so I know it's not that their machine doesn't require it or what have you. So he proceeds to pull a crappy looking shot as you might expect. Now to top it off he's going to steam the milk. He picks up his pitcher which I can see already has some steamed milk in it from a previous drink and tops it off with some milk. He then sets the wand inside the pitcher and puts a large coffee mug underneath it and turns on the steam. He walks away from the pitcher and chats up his co-worker for a bit. When he's done with his chat he returns to the pitcher and turns off the steam and serves me a steaming hot piece of crap of a Cappuccino.

I'm still not sure I just witnessed all of that, but yeah I did.

You know, a few months ago I would have thought this was business as usual. Obviously nobody notices this stuff so they can get away with it I guess. Unbelievable that a company who's business is, in large part, espresso could turn out a 'barista' like this one.

Anybody top that?
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Link to "So I went to Starbucks yesterday..."by Gabe on Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:39 pm

I can't top it, but I've had several similar experiences.

A few weeks ago, I stopped at Starbucks in the local Target store (I was very desperate) and ordered a cappuccino. The nice young girl working behind the counter hit the "start" button on the super-auto machine and began steaming the milk to very stiff peaks. Then, without even attempting to pour the stuff from the pitcher (this was obviously not her first time), she took a spoon and scooped it onto the "espresso". She even smoothed-out the top of the "meringue" with the back of the spoon - nice touch.

I asked her if she liked espresso, and she wrinkled her nose and said, "I don't like coffee." I chuckled and thought to myself, "I wouldn't either if I worked here."

On the opposite end of the spectrum, I stopped at Capanna Coffee Co. in Iowa City this morning. I ordered a double espresso, and after three attempts at pulling a decent one, she handed me the cup and said, "This one pulled one second too fast, but it looks good. If you don't like it, I'll try again." Unbelievable. I was completely shocked. She was obviously trained very well. It was good, by the way. Oh, they also have excellent gelato that's made in-house daily.
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Link to "So I went to Starbucks yesterday..."by another_jim on Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:31 pm

Yesterday, I stopped at a McDonald's and it wasn't a three star restaurant. The chef wasn't wearing a top hat and couldn't handle a knife.
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Link to "So I went to Starbucks yesterday..."by HB on Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:48 pm

I've commented on the Starbucks of the world a few times (e.g., Making the case for super-automatics (again)). As Jim implies, they define "fast food" style coffee. It makes practical sense that their equipment should reduce the skills required of their work staff. My concern isn't the quality of fast food coffee, but that it's defined the acceptable standard for the majority of Americans.

Few fail to grasp that McDonald's and Wendy's are fast food restaurants, not purveyors of haute cuisine. But do the overwhelming majority agree that most "cafes" are operating at the same fast food standard? I don't think so. Chains are selling coffee-flavored milk to satisfied customers; sadly, the bar will move up ever-so-slowly as long as the norm is fast food standards.

One of the frequent complaints of our visitors is that I've "ruined" their enjoyment of Starbucks. Pshaw! I recommend they order something they have no standard to compare against when they go out, e.g., a chai latte. That's what I do and enjoy it.
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Link to "So I went to Starbucks yesterday..."by jesawdy on Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:19 pm

another_jim wrote:Yesterday, I stopped at a McDonald's and it wasn't a three star restaurant. The chef wasn't wearing a top hat and couldn't handle a knife.


Yeah, but that double cheeseburger was fairly satisfying for only 99 cents. :lol:
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Link to "So I went to Starbucks yesterday..."by another_jim on Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:52 pm

jesawdy wrote:Yeah, but that double cheeseburger was fairly satisfying for only 99 cents. :lol:


Touche; Starbuck's is overpriced for fast food. They may be get themselves outflanked by Dunkin.
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Link to "So I went to Starbucks yesterday..."by DigMe on Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:31 am

I don't find the lack of barista skills at Starbuck's surprising or unexpected. I did have an amusing experience there once. When I first got looking for a good tamper I went to Starbuck's because it was the only place in town that I could think of that MIGHT have tampers...after all the DO sell espresso machines. I got there and didn't see any but I asked the girl behind the counter, "Do you sell tampers?" She goes, "Tampers...tampers...let's see," :? and then looks over at another guy and says, "Do we sell tampers?" The guy had a blank look and said, "hmmm...can you hold on just a minute." He then disappears into the back for a good minute. Then he comes back out and says, "The line manager is going to come out and talk with you." At this point I'm thinking "Huh? What am I going to have to talk to him about? Do I need to come up with some conversation topics?! How does my hair look?!" Then another guy emerges who I guess is "the guy that knows stuff about coffee" and says "Yeah, some of our machines come with tampers but we don't sell them individually." That was what he had to come talk with me about.

Thanks.

I wasn't surprised by not knowing that they didn't know what a tamper was after I walked in and saw nothing but superautos but I did leave feeling thoroughly entertained...so I guess you could say that in a way my Starbuck's experience was satisfying. :P

bc
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Well, I have a memory...

Link to "So I went to Starbucks yesterday..."by howard seth on Tue Dec 12, 2006 3:05 am

Was it 1993?

I walked into a Starbucks. I was living in Chicago then, perhaps it was the only Starbucks in Chicago at the time... well, the only one I knew about... in Old Town. I ordered an espresso -It was served in a porcelain demitasse. It was a wonderful intense espresso - just about the best I had ever had.

Odd.


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Link to "So I went to Starbucks yesterday..."by iginfect on Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:12 am

I once read on cg that the *$ at Barnes & Noble was run by B&N, not *$. They use *$ coffee.

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Re: well, I have a memory...

Link to "So I went to Starbucks yesterday..."by another_jim on Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:27 am

howard seth wrote:Was it 1993?

I walked into a Starbucks. I was living in Chicago then, perhaps it was the only Starbucks in Chicago at the time... well, the only one I knew about... in Old Town. I ordered an espresso -It was served in a porcelain demitasse. It was a wonderful intense espresso - just about the best I had ever had.

Odd.


Howard


I think they opened around five stores in Chicago at one swoop. The one in Hyde Park at the time was pretty good too; a lot better than any other one there. The coffee was already roasted pretty dark; but it was fresh and aromatic. They also already had grinders and machines with their own badges; but at the time they were Gaggia Classics and Coffees, not Saecos.

Their drive towards the fast food model began in the late 90s. It was particularly obvious with their people, who suddenly substituted starbuck's babble for any information about the coffee itself.
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Link to "So I went to Starbucks yesterday..."by jonbauer on Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:54 am

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Link to "So I went to Starbucks yesterday..."by tmaynard on Sun Dec 17, 2006 8:16 pm

Okay, here's my story:

Each year on our anniversary my wife and I go to a French restaurant for dinner. The tab is typically $100-200 for dinner and a couple of glasses of (excellent!) wine. At the end we traditionally have a decaf cappuccino (it is, usually, about 10pm).

Well, say 3 years ago, that cappuccino was just marvelous. We had a wooden stick with rock sugar on it to stir in our coffee, it was lightly dusted with nutmeg/chocolate/cinnamon (perhaps all three), and we were just dizzy with the joy of it all.

Fast forward to this year -- after I've begun roasting my own, hand grinding on my Zass, French Pressing, and more recently pulling espresso shots of my own. Now, repeat the scenario ....

A wonderful, delectable dinner -- my compliments to the chef! -- the wine(s) were superb! Everything was "magnifique!" And we ordered our usual decaf cappuccino, with a knowing wink at one another (my beautiful wife and I -- it was our anniversary, after all). Well, <GACK> it tasted like stale cardboard. It reeked of burlap and balderdash. I don't stir mine with the rock-sugar stick they provide -- but I wished I had!

I'm reasonably sure they were brewing with the same, pre-ground coffee we sipped a year (or two!) before! It was, well, GAWD-AWFUL. Even my wife (bless her soul for tolerating me and my "hobbies"), who does not drink coffee, and limits herself to the occasional decaf, rather winced at her first sip.

As we walked to the car on that crisp November evening I told her: "Never again. I can make better decaf cappus at home, even if I'm working with a sink shot. Even my clotted, coddled steamed milk is better than that." She beamed (obviously proud of her husband and his new-found "barista" skills).

The very next day I ordered some Donkey Decaf blend from Sweet Maria's. That same night I offered my loving wife a glass of steamed milk at bedtime. She loved it! She ran to sprinkle some cinnamon on that lame, overbubbled product that I made for her (microfoam? I don't think so!). She was wiping the inside of her glass with her finger. A total noob, with no control of the foaming wand -- heck, without even any decaf at all -- can produce a more acceptable drink than a fancy French (insert nationality or your choice) restaurant.

Starbucks? It's just better at home. Or it can be, if you try a bit. That's all I can say.

t++
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Link to "So I went to Starbucks yesterday..."by HB on Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:25 pm

Thanks for sharing your story. We've regrettably had similar experiences at fine restaurants:
  • Second Empire - scalding hot cappuccino. After the best meal since leaving Paris, the after dinner cappuccino burned the roof of my mouth. Why didn't I complain? Why did I pay for it?
  • Enoteca Vin - a very expensive refurbished Astoria; unfortunately the staff didn't know the grinder was adjustable and I saw the 90 second extraction. The waitress noted that I sipped and immediately set it aside. It wasn't on the bill.
  • Bistro 64 (formally Cosmopolitan) - the waitress not only knew the roaster, she correctly listed the five coffees in their espresso blend. My wife joked that I was frequently disappointed by restaurant espresso drinks; the waitress offered to bring one and if I didn't like it, it would not be on the bill. A thin, blond, flavorless... bleech.
Three good restaurants in our area, three bad experiences. I really would love to order coffee after a nice dinner, but I'm tired of disappointments. Instead I recommend a port or sweet wine from the dessert menu. :)
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Link to "So I went to Starbucks yesterday..."by cannonfodder on Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:54 pm

I will up you one. This is the very first post in my BLOG back in 05. I actually started it just to post this one article.

A dismal search for a drinkable shot...

Well my friends, I am back from a week long business trip to Newark New Jersey. As any self respecting coffee geek, I tried to research the offerings in my destination city. Having come up short on a web search I turned to my friends at CoffeeGeek. I was met with less than enthusiastic results, but I thought to myself, it can't be that bad. After all, this is next door to New York and a major metropolitan area.

Once I finally arrived at my final destination, it was too late to go searching for a cafe. I made note of a two group in the hotel bar as I passed. I also made an inquiry with the hotel attendant; once again the results were not hopeful.

I set out on my quest the next day. A walk through of the bar provided the expected let down. There was a machine, but no grinder. As I sat at the bar I noticed the two big boxes of POD's. I had the unfortunate experience of watching the bartender prepare an espresso and cappuccino for another unlucky patron. He picked up the portafilter from the drip tray (good and cold) opened a POD and dropped it into the PF. Now, as I sit there watching I notice that there is no POD adapter on the machine. He promptly drops the POD into the PF basket, locks it into the group and hits the double button. What came out appeared more like tea than espresso. Now he moves on to the cappa, same procedure, same result, but then came the milk. Now this machine was not too dirty. The steam wands had a little residue on them which is to be expected after a few uses. The froth was the typical dish soap bubble and the drinks appeared to be more milk than anything else so decide to pass. A couple of days later I notice the froth wands still have the same residue on them and portafilter still had residue in them. It appears that they did wipe the machine down with a damp bar towel, but I seriously doubt it has had a good cleaning in weeks. My search continues...

I wonder around the hotel and happen onto a cafe that looks promising, so I return the next day to sample their wares. The place was jumping, a line of customers out the door and the aroma of coffee floating on the breeze, my hopes were elevated. They even had a sign describing each drinks proportions, and it was correct. So I order up a double cappuccino and an orange/cranberry muffin. Now I can not see the preparation area, but I do see a couple of Mazzer's beside the machine. I hear the grinder spin up. A few moments later I hear the milk being frothed. Now I can tell from the sound of gurgling that it was going to be a bit bubbly. I get my drink and have a seat at a small table. I pop the top on the cup. Now that was not microfoam by any stretch of the imagination, but it was a medium sized bubble and appeared drinkable. The key word here is 'appeared'. The beans had a distinct stale taste to them. They were probably a couple of months out of the roaster and purchased through a general restaurant supply house, but the muffin was good. So my search continues...

Now it is off to the local StarBucks. Say what you will, they at least have consistency, most of the time. I found one a couple of blocks from my hotel so I wander in about 5pm. Now my first impression was not good. Neither person behind the counter appeared to know what they were doing. So I ordered a medium cappa with an extra shot (quad shot cappa), pay the lady and step to the side to watch the PBTC make my drink. I really, REALLY, wish I had looked behind the counter prior to ordering. They had the filthiest machine I have ever seen. Baked on milk splatter all over the machine, crusty parts, yes folks, coffee crust. There was no drip tray, there was a drip reservoir, but there was no tray on top. You could not see into the dose chamber of the Mazzer through the windows, they were caked and stained with ground coffee and the grinders and work surface was just flat out disgusting. They under dosed into the PF from the doser, tamped using the leveling attachment on the old nasty looking Mazzer and locked it onto the group head. Then he picked up two nasty looking shot glasses out of the drip tray, remember there is no cover, they are sitting IN the drip tray. You can not even begin to imagine how filthy these two shot glasses were. It looked like they had been pulling shots into the same two glasses all day, and neither had been washed in who knows how long.

Now you may be thinking it can't get any worse, but it does. After putting the two nasty shot glasses into the drip tray and pulling my shots into them he proceeds to froth my milk. He dumps milk into a dirty pitcher, jams the crusty frothing wand into the pitcher and blows milk completely out of the pitcher. Heat, heat, heat, stop and stare into the pitcher. 'Ay, ther anint no froth in here' he calls out to the lady. To which she replies 'Ya gots to move it up and down to make bubbles'. So they pour some of the scalded milk into my cup, then pour more milk into the scalded milk currently in the pitcher and away they go again. Woosh, goosh, splatter goes the milk. Now they have some bubbles, and quite literally boiled milk. So they dump more of it into my cup and proudly hand it to me. I give them a half hearted nod and walk over a small table by the window.

Now my stomach is turning. The cup is so hot from the boiled milk that I can not even hold it. I sit there in a daze staring out the window as the crush of humanity goes by. Bankers, lawyers, secretaries rushing to Pen Station to get out of Doge, the drunks, vagrants and occasional stoner staggering around in the sea of humanity, just to end up staggering into an ally where they slump down against a building. I do hazard a sip, just because I went through all of the trouble to walk here. I wince at the scalded, acrid taste, stare out the window for another few moments, walk to the door and drop my drink in the trash and retreat to the hotel bar to drown my sorrows with a beverage of another kind. Ow how I miss home...
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I went too!

Link to "So I went to Starbucks yesterday..."by gardoni on Wed Dec 20, 2006 1:07 pm

Sadly, I did.

I was in the Houston Tx. area and well, I had to get it on at Starbucks. The hotel I was staying at has a mall and I didn't have a car so I looked for any decent coffee shops within the hotel/mall complex. I knew it was gonna be a long shot, but I tried anyways. As I expected i could only find not one, but two Starbucks within the mall. So, having no means of transportation I sadly but surely approached the counter. I asked for a latte. Then watched. In Horror!!!! The barista took out two giant pitchers one that read "milk-whole" on it. This, I noticed, was written down with a magic marker. These had to be the biggest pouring pitchers I had ever seen. She put the pitcher under a steaming system that apparently doesn't need any supervision. But I watched while she didn't. The frothing was ghastly. She then proceeded to dump the warmed milk onto my espresso. She didn't even bother to use a spoon- but why would she- there was no foam!!!! So I drank it. It was horrible. I will never go again. I promise.

Sincerely,
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Link to "So I went to Starbucks yesterday..."by tmaynard on Wed Dec 20, 2006 7:43 pm

gardoni wrote:there was no foam!!!! So I drank it. It was horrible. I will never go again. I promise.

Heh.

I was in Fort Wayne, Indiana recently and my brother (who lives there) took me to a local roastery: "Freshest coffee in all of Indiana. I know the roaster," he said.

The place is called "Gold Crown" (as a warning to other HB members). Sure enough there's a Probat (or similar) roaster, but there were also 2-gallon buckets of pre-roasted coffee (who knows how old? exposed to air and light) and people were lining up to buy some. I asked for a "small americano" (my usual request on a road trip/vacation). My wife had tea, my brother had drip, his wife had -- well, I don't remember what she had. My americano was simply awful! It was WAY hot -- tongue-burning hot -- and tasted like stale pre-ground coffee left in full sun (and air) for a week or two.

Now, in my world, an americano is a shot or two of espresso diluted to (say) 10 oz with water off-the-boil. I believe (to my dying day) that I got drip coffee, brewed hours earlier, in a paper cup. There was *absolutely* nothing desirable about that cup -- it was HOT, STALE, and CHARACTERLESS. I wanted to dilute it with (room temp) Half-n-Half, and maybe even dump in a packet of sugar. GACK!

I choked it down (over time), and vowed that I would never return. I've had americanos at Starbucks (en route to the Fort Wayne destination, in fact) that tasted 1000X better than this wretched cup. My custom at SB is to avert my eyes during the brew (better not to know). But, at mile marker 90 (or so) on the Indiana Toll Road, there is a SB that delivers an americano that doesn't make you want to chuck the whole thing into the trash. Sure, I could do better at home -- but I'm a hundred miles from home, and these folks seem to have at least a clue about the process.

Gold Crown Coffee Roasters could take a lesson from SB!
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Link to "So I went to Starbucks yesterday..."by HB on Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:33 pm

For the benefit of recent members... more horror stories are found in Sink Shots Contest and Sink Shots Grudge Match. If that doesn't make you afraid to go out, read The Worse Cappuccino I've Ever Had.
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Link to "So I went to Starbucks yesterday..."by tmaynard on Fri Dec 22, 2006 9:09 pm

HB wrote:For the benefit of recent members... more horror stories are found in...

I am a recent member -- and I laughed until I cried. There ought to be a special thread where we can contribute these horror stories -- prizes or no. "Coffee Horror" might be suitable.

I've still got tear stains on my cheeks. Wonderful (okay frighteningly horrible) stuff.
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Link to "So I went to Starbucks yesterday..."by Savkaj on Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:18 am

jonbauer wrote:http://www.illwillpress.com/sml.html

NSFW!!!

- Jon



friggin' brilliant :lol:
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Link to "So I went to Starbucks yesterday..."by Gav800 on Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:11 am

I think the lesson that needs to be learnt here is simply.... Don't get coffee from chains or crap coffee shops.

Know what places are good and go significantly out of your way to make sure you buy your coffee from them.

It may not make a big difference, but quality coffee shops deserve your business.
"Cup quality is the essence of your product emo"
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