Single boiler vs double boiler, HX vs non HX, lever vs semi-auto, vs...

[kikuchio]

Having just recently discovered this site i must say i am impressed by the depth and extent of knowledge and experience of those who post here. I am the owner of a Rancilio Audrey and Gaggia MDF and i think i am ready to move up; the question is to what? Single boiler vs double boiler, HX vs non HX, lever vs semi-auto, vs ..... I should say that i do not roast my own beans.
thank you in advance for your help.

[mattwells]

Welcome Kikuchio.

I used to be a regular here, but with law school in full swing I only get to check in every now and then.

These guys are definitely helpful, but they will need some more information to make good recommendations. Are you making mostly milk-based drinks or straight espresso? Will you be making multiples back to back (to back to back....)? Do you want/need a hot water nozzle?

All of these things will influence your choices.

Give us some more info, and we will give you some.
Matt Wells

[kikuchio]

Welcome Kikuchio.

I used to be a regular here, but with law school in full swing I only get to check in every now and then.

These guys are definitely helpful, but they will need some more information to make good recommendations. Are you making mostly milk-based drinks or straight espresso? Will you be making multiples back to back (to back to back....)? Do you want/need a hot water nozzle?

All of these things will influence your choices.

Give us some more info, and we will give you some.
Matt Wells

matt wells
i appreciate your response
i probably make about 60 % milk based drinks at present but one of the reasons for upgrading is to be able to make ristrettos and improve my espresso. i seldom do more than 3 or 4 back to back.
hot water nozzle sounds nice but i've never had one so i guess it would not be essential.
i do not think i have the knowledge to make some of the modifications to the machine that some of the others have described.
i will not be able to plumb in the machine at present.

thank you

k

[miKe mcKoffee]

matt wells
i appreciate your response
i probably make about 60 % milk based drinks at present but one of the reasons for upgrading is to be able to make ristrettos and improve my espresso. i seldom do more than 3 or 4 back to back.
hot water nozzle sounds nice but i've never had one so i guess it would not be essential.
i do not think i have the knowledge to make some of the modifications to the machine that some of the others have described.
i will not be able to plumb in the machine at present.

thank you

k

Hmmm, I used a Silvia for 3&1/2 years and she was quite capable of pulling ristrettos. Since the Audrey is basically the same machine with plastic exterior and smaller reservoir any problem pulling ristettos more likely on the handle side of the PF (which could include the grinder).

Question, how old is your MDF? (as in approx' how many pounds ground) Have you replaced the burrs recently, or ever? All burrs dull gradually. And as the burrs dull grind becomes more inconsistent and ristrettos do become more difficult to dial in especially with a stepped grinder like the MDF. I know with a Rocky very noticable grind improvement replacing the burrs after only 100#. (On 4th set of burrs in 4&1/2 years) Before looking to buy a new espresso machine make sure the rest of the equation is in order. And in truth the MDF is pretty low end for attempting fine tuning espresso shots even with good sharp burrs, lower end than even Rocky. (I've recently added a Mazzer SJ for stepless fine tuning shots though)

That said milk based drinks mucho easier to make with an HX or DB machine. Plus shot temp management much easier and more accurate with HX (and of course DB), especially back to back shots with and/or without steaming between shots.

Also any specific machine recommendations would be mute without knowing a budget range.

[kikuchio]

Hmmm, I used a Silvia for 3&1/2 years and she was quite capable of pulling ristrettos. Since the Audrey is basically the same machine with plastic exterior and smaller reservoir any problem pulling ristettos more likely on the handle side of the PF (which could include the grinder).

Question, how old is your MDF? (as in approx' how many pounds ground) Have you replaced the burrs recently, or ever? All burrs dull gradually. And as the burrs dull grind becomes more inconsistent and ristrettos do become more difficult to dial in especially with a stepped grinder like the MDF. I know with a Rocky very noticable grind improvement replacing the burrs after only 100#. (On 4th set of burrs in 4&1/2 years) Before looking to buy a new espresso machine make sure the rest of the equation is in order. And in truth the MDF is pretty low end for attempting fine tuning espresso shots even with good sharp burrs, lower end than even Rocky. (I've recently added a Mazzer SJ for stepless fine tuning shots though)

That said milk based drinks mucho easier to make with an HX or DB machine. Plus shot temp management much easier and more accurate with HX (and of course DB), especially back to back shots with and/or without steaming between shots.

Also any specific machine recommendations would be mute without knowing a budget range.

MDF has seen many pounds of use and, indeed it's performance seems to have declined over time. I wasn't aware that the burrs could be replaced. Is this something i can do myself? Where are replacements available? even if i do the replacement, which seems necessary, i think that a newer, and preferably doserless, grinder is on my wish list .

with respect to the machine, i have read and reread the reviews on HB and am fairly convinced that i would like to upgrade. part of my question lies in how do choose between the DB and HX machines, or a lever machine, assuming a particular price point. (let's say between 1500 and 2k for a new machine and grinder, if that's possible)

thanks for your insight

kikuchio

[miKe mcKoffee]

MDF has seen many pounds of use and, indeed it's performance seems to have declined over time. I wasn't aware that the burrs could be replaced. Is this something i can do myself? Where are replacements available? even if i do the replacement, which seems necessary, i think that a newer, and preferably doserless, grinder is on my wish list .

Checked a couple of the usual and only found WLL with MDF replacement burrs. Even if considering getting a newer more adjustable grinder I'd still spring the $28.75 for new burrs.

with respect to the machine, i have read and reread the reviews on HB and am fairly convinced that i would like to upgrade. part of my question lies in how do choose between the DB and HX machines, or a lever machine, assuming a particular price point. (let's say between 1500 and 2k for a new machine and grinder, if that's possible)

kikuchio

New grinder wise tough to say, pros & cons with about all, be sure and check out HB's [url=http://home-barista.com/feature-spotlight-grinders.html]Feature Spotlight
on Espresso Grinders.[/url]

Espresso machine wise even tougher choices! First there's DB vs HX. After temp surfing Silvia for 2+ years before adding PID I swore I'd never surf again. I'd heard HX machines required surfing so were out of the question leaving DBs, or so I thought. Last November was talking to to Chris about the then rumored up and coming direct connect PID temp controlled rotary Quick Mill (that has since died in project) when he mentioned a rotary Bricoletta he'd let me have at a steal. (like $549 off list) But it was HX so I didn't say yes. Spent the next 6 hours or so re-reading everything I could find on HX machines, in particular multiple reads of Chris Tacy's Pro's review of the same Bricoletta, and the light bulb turned on. HX surfing is not only different than surfing Silvia but also very accurate and perfect for my consumption style. Namely often pulling back to backs of different beans requiring different temps, easily done with HX. Zero regrets 9 months later, every shot I pull can be pulled anywhere from 194 to 207f on demand, + or - 1f max variance accuracy. There are many excellent HX machine choices to choose from, often the deciding factor what you want to see looking back at you from your counter day after day for years.

Still DBs obviously easier to pull at a given shot temp, but prosumer choices all but limited to two options, neither of which I'm too keen on for different reasons.

If you can go direct connect, DO IT! (Once having a rotary I'll never go back to vibed) Bricoletta or Vetrano paired with Mazzer or Macap easily in your budget.

[randomperson]

Having gone through this decision process very recently, I'll chime in and tell you what some of the considerations are between the double boiler machine and HX machines.

1. If you can't plumb in your machine, you are limited to the Expobar Brewtus in double boiler machines. On the other hand, there are many many fine HX machines to choose from in your price range, so you can choose based on size and footprint, aesthetics, features, and so on.

2. If you are after complete simplicity, the double boiler Brewtus might make more sense, since the flushing required is very simple. On the other hand, despite all my own misgivings (and humiliating threads on Home Barista!) I found that the HX flush is really not that complicated at all! After a good deal of experimentation, I've pretty well dialed things in to my satisfaction -- and I've only had La Valentina for two weeks! That said, if you like trying lots of different coffees, I'm sure the Brewtus would make it easier to hit that perfect temperature for every blend, every time. You'd still have to experiment some to get there, but then you just select your temp and go.

3. If you are concerned about water freshness, probably the HX machines make more sense, as water for the HX is drawn from the reservoir rather than from the boiler. With the double boiler machines, the water sits in the boiler until you use it. So for low volume home use, the water could get stale -- which may or may not affect the taste of the coffee, and may or may not be of much importance to you.

4. If you are concerned about quality of components and reliability over time, you might want to consider the innards of your selected machine. My impression is that some of the HX machines (like La Valentina and others) use better components than others. I was very concerned about the Sirai pressurestat, for example -- as other pressurestats may have higher failure rates. It was a key reason I chose La Valentina over Brewtus -- Whole Latte Love could not answer my question about the brand of pressurestat that is in the Brewtus.

5. Looks matter! These are very large machines -- they make quite a statement in your kitchen! So choose something that you won't mind looking at -- and may even love looking at!

Anyway, as many have said here -- all these machines in this price class make fantastic espresso. You will be happy with any of them, I'm sure. But have some fun obsessing over your choice -- hell, we all did!

[kikuchio]

New grinder wise tough to say, pros & cons with about all, be sure and check out HB's [url=http://home-barista.com/feature-spotlight-grinders.html]Feature Spotlight
on Espresso Grinders.[/url]

Espresso machine wise even tougher choices! First there's DB vs HX. After temp surfing Silvia for 2+ years before adding PID I swore I'd never surf again. I'd heard HX machines required surfing so were out of the question leaving DBs, or so I thought. Last November was talking to to Chris about the then rumored up and coming direct connect PID temp controlled rotary Quick Mill (that has since died in project) when he mentioned a rotary Bricoletta he'd let me have at a steal. (like $549 off list) But it was HX so I didn't say yes. Spent the next 6 hours or so re-reading everything I could find on HX machines, in particular multiple reads of Chris Tacy's Pro's review of the same Bricoletta, and the light bulb turned on. HX surfing is not only different than surfing Silvia but also very accurate and perfect for my consumption style. Namely often pulling back to backs of different beans requiring different temps, easily done with HX. Zero regrets 9 months later, every shot I pull can be pulled anywhere from 194 to 207f on demand, + or - 1f max variance accuracy. There are many excellent HX machine choices to choose from, often the deciding factor what you want to see looking back at you from your counter day after day for years.

Still DBs obviously easier to pull at a given shot temp, but prosumer choices all but limited to two options, neither of which I'm too keen on for different reasons.

If you can go direct connect, DO IT! (Once having a rotary I'll never go back to vibed) Bricoletta or Vetrano paired with Mazzer or Macap easily in your budget.

Thank you for the information, the replacement burrs are on the way!
i still think there is likely a new grinder in my future. do you have anything to say about Cunill?

Although you make it sound very tempting, for now the direct connect / rotary option is not feasable. As i think i indicated, i don't feel capable of doing something like a PID modification so i must focus on other options.

I am grateful for any further suggestions

kikuchio

[kikuchio]

Having gone through this decision process very recently, I'll chime in and tell you what some of the considerations are between the double boiler machine and HX machines.

1. If you can't plumb in your machine, you are limited to the Expobar Brewtus in double boiler machines. On the other hand, there are many many fine HX machines to choose from in your price range, so you can choose based on size and footprint, aesthetics, features, and so on.

2. If you are after complete simplicity, the double boiler Brewtus might make more sense, since the flushing required is very simple. On the other hand, despite all my own misgivings (and humiliating threads on Home Barista!) I found that the HX flush is really not that complicated at all! After a good deal of experimentation, I've pretty well dialed things in to my satisfaction -- and I've only had La Valentina for two weeks! That said, if you like trying lots of different coffees, I'm sure the Brewtus would make it easier to hit that perfect temperature for every blend, every time. You'd still have to experiment some to get there, but then you just select your temp and go.

3. If you are concerned about water freshness, probably the HX machines make more sense, as water for the HX is drawn from the reservoir rather than from the boiler. With the double boiler machines, the water sits in the boiler until you use it. So for low volume home use, the water could get stale -- which may or may not affect the taste of the coffee, and may or may not be of much importance to you.

4. If you are concerned about quality of components and reliability over time, you might want to consider the innards of your selected machine. My impression is that some of the HX machines (like La Valentina and others) use better components than others. I was very concerned about the Sirai pressurestat, for example -- as other pressurestats may have higher failure rates. It was a key reason I chose La Valentina over Brewtus -- Whole Latte Love could not answer my question about the brand of pressurestat that is in the Brewtus.

5. Looks matter! These are very large machines -- they make quite a statement in your kitchen! So choose something that you won't mind looking at -- and may even love looking at!

Anyway, as many have said here -- all these machines in this price class make fantastic espresso. You will be happy with any of them, I'm sure. But have some fun obsessing over your choice -- hell, we all did!

randomperson,
i appreciate you sharing what you've learned along with some nuances that i woud never have realized
it would appear that with so many factors to consider the "answer" is ellusive. i guess i haven't done enough obsessing yet.

by the way, anyone know anything about salvatore machines?

thanks

kikuchio

[Dogshot]

3. If you are concerned about water freshness, probably the HX machines make more sense, as water for the HX is drawn from the reservoir rather than from the boiler. With the double boiler machines, the water sits in the boiler until you use it. So for low volume home use, the water could get stale -- which may or may not affect the taste of the coffee, and may or may not be of much importance to you.

After reading recent repetitive posts about water staleness, I think the concept could use some further conceptualization. For example, what is stale water, what makes it stale, and what 'refreshes' it? What does stale water taste like?

I have an RO filter for drinking water. Since the RO filter can't produce sufficient water on-demand, water sits in a container after being filtered, waiting for me to use it. And yet it taste way better than my tap water. Also, I have never noticed it to taste 'stale'.

So, is it water that has acquired a taste from being in a container? If so, a reservoir machine will not solve your problem unless you completely change the reservoir water very often.

Is it water that has been still for some time? If so, for how long, and what refreshes it? Does using bottled water, or water pumped from a large container qualify as stale water?

Does temperature increase staleness, or does water have to boil before temperature affects staleness?

Staleness has been referred to lately with no indication of what that actually means. Where the taste of water coming from the grouphead is concerned, I find that machine cleanliness is by far the greatest factor.

Mark

[miKe mcKoffee]

Thank you for the information, the replacement burrs are on the way!
i still think there is likely a new grinder in my future. do you have anything to say about Cunill?

I think the Cunill would be more a lateral move than an upgrade.

Although you make it sound very tempting, for now the direct connect / rotary option is not feasable. As i think i indicated, i don't feel capable of doing something like a PID modification so i must focus on other options.

Ya lost me, what does PID temp control modification have to do with stock direct water connect and rotary pump?

I am grateful for any further suggestions

kikuchio

GS3 & M3

[randomperson]

After reading recent repetitive posts about water staleness, I think the concept could use some further conceptualization. For example, what is stale water, what makes it stale, and what 'refreshes' it? What does stale water taste like?

I have an RO filter for drinking water. Since the RO filter can't produce sufficient water on-demand, water sits in a container after being filtered, waiting for me to use it. And yet it taste way better than my tap water. Also, I have never noticed it to taste 'stale'.

So, is it water that has acquired a taste from being in a container? If so, a reservoir machine will not solve your problem unless you completely change the reservoir water very often.

Is it water that has been still for some time? If so, for how long, and what refreshes it? Does using bottled water, or water pumped from a large container qualify as stale water?

Does temperature increase staleness, or does water have to boil before temperature affects staleness?

Staleness has been referred to lately with no indication of what that actually means. Where the taste of water coming from the grouphead is concerned, I find that machine cleanliness is by far the greatest factor.

Mark

Dogshot these are excellent questions -- I have no idea what the answers are! IMHO, however, machines that are frequently refreshed via reservoir water (where the reservoir can easily be removed periodically and cleaned) are probably fresher/less stale in the water department than if the water comes from an inaccessible boiler with a low refresh rate.
But really I'm just making this up -- I have no idea. But when the issue was raised elsewhere (a few times now) it did concern me and was part of my own decision process when choosing a home machine. I will say that I can taste the difference in my drip coffee when I get lazy and put water in the brew reservoir the night before I make the coffee vs filling the reservoir just before I make the coffee. It probably relates to the "plasticky" nature of the reservoir. But I can definitely taste the difference. So I reason that a similar effect may hold true for espresso as well. That said, I'm fairly certain that machine cleanliness is the more important taste factor, as you pointed out.

[randomperson]

Oh Dogshot, one more thing. One big difference between water sitting in a jar or reservoir or other container vs a boiler is of course, heat. Water from a boiler that has been heated and reheated wil taste different than freshly boiled or heated or cold water. It is a kind of flatness. It is one of the reasons that a true tea afficionado (like myself) will only drink tea made from freshly boiled water -- never from water that has been previously boiled and reboiled or is held hot in a carafe or thermos after boiling. There is a palpable difference in the taste of tea prepared with freshly boiled water -- which is one reason why I would never drink tea made from any source of hot water (including an espresso machine's hot water tap) other than a freshly boiling kettle.

Now in this case I have actually done direct comparisons of tea prepared in several ways and could pick out the freshly boiled water tea in a blind test. Since I haven't done this with espresso from a double boiler vs an HX I can't tell you if I could taste the difference. And it also doesn't mean that I wouldn't find the espresso from a bouble boiler to be delicious. It's just that the way water is handled from an HX machine might indeed produce some kind of difference in the cup. On the assumption that it might indeed be a tastable difference -- as it is for me with tea -- I decided to forgo a double boiler machine.

It would be great if someone actually did a series of shots from each and A/B tasted them. But there are so many variables between machines that I doubt any kind of test would be valid. And the difference could be too subtle anyway, whereas with tea -- a much more delicate beverage -- the difference may indeed be greater and more readily tastable. Who knows?

[cannonfodder]

That is often referred to 'stillness' and is a problem the espresso industry has had to deal with on a regular basis. One major culprit is a lightly used pour over machines reservoir water. The water gets stale after a day. T.J., our resident La Cimbali master importer, touches on in Dogshot's discussion, Tasted Your Reservoir Water Lately? thread.

When I had my Isomac at home, I installed a float valve in the reservoir so I would never have to take the top off to fill. See Quit Filling That Water Tank! for more information. Think of it as the poor mans direct connect. It also allows me to move the machine and use it as a pour over in a different location, then plug the water line back in and go back to autofill. I regularly dumped half or more of the reservoir water every day. In pour over mode, I do not refill the reservoir until I am powering it up for use so the water is fresh.

It does make a difference in all things brewed, as randomperson suggests with tea, and coffee, espresso, soup, stock and all things water based. The more subtle the brewed substance the more noticeable the change. Water is cheap, flush a lot, empty the reservoir or flush it through the machine every day or two and refresh your boiler water before you use it to make tea, americano's or coffee.

[randomperson]

I find that between all the flushing and the cleaning --and of course the actual coffee!-- I go through at least half if not a whole reservoir of water a day, so it doesn't hang out there too long. But with a double boiler, isn't that water by definition likely to sit in the boiler longer? And the water is being directly heated and reheated, is it not? So even though HX machine water isn't the freshest either, it may be fresher than water held in a large double boiler machine -- so goes my curious logic, anyway!

[cannonfodder]

Depends on the machine. Something like the Brut, the brew boiler is smallish. Two quick flushes and it is cleared of the old water. Yes I know the entire point behind a double boiler is to eliminate the need for a cooling or heating flush, but a couple of quick flushes while preparing your portafilter will take care of the stale water. On a big commercial machine, you would need gobs of flushing. However a commercial machine is designed for a commercial environment. In that setting the water is being flushed out via shots all the time.

One of the benefits of a HX is that the heat exchanger is always being flushed with cooling shots. The heat exchangers on my Faema are large enough to qualify as a small boiler, I do huge flushes on it. A big flush before I start (6+ oz) then grind and dose, flush another 4oz'ish tamp flush another 2-4oz lock and go.

[miKe mcKoffee]

Depends on the machine. Something like the Brut, the brew boiler is smallish. Two quick flushes and it is cleared of the old water.

By Brut do you mean Brewtus? Brewtus brew boiler smallish and only a couple quick flushes to clear old water? It's got a 1.7L brew boiler so two loooooong flushes maybe! But would be true for the S1.

[kikuchio]

Depends on the machine. Something like the Brut, the brew boiler is smallish. Two quick flushes and it is cleared of the old water. Yes I know the entire point behind a double boiler is to eliminate the need for a cooling or heating flush, but a couple of quick flushes while preparing your portafilter will take care of the stale water. On a big commercial machine, you would need gobs of flushing. However a commercial machine is designed for a commercial environment. In that setting the water is being flushed out via shots all the time.

One of the benefits of a HX is that the heat exchanger is always being flushed with cooling shots. The heat exchangers on my Faema are large enough to qualify as a small boiler, I do huge flushes on it. A big flush before I start (6+ oz) then grind and dose, flush another 4oz'ish tamp flush another 2-4oz lock and go.

please forgive me but as i said at the beginning, i am just learning the subtleties of espress. do i understand correctly that it is necessary to perform about a cup and a half of flushes to pull a shot using a heat exchanger machine? this is a benefit?

thanks

k

[Psyd]

I have issues with the concept of stale water. At what point after two molecules of hydrogen combine with a molecule of oxygen does the combination begin to degrade? And what kind of degradation is occurring? Is stale water where the oxygen molecules escape and leave too many hydrogens lying about, or the reverse? I buy fifty+ gallons of drinking water (Tucson water is plenty hard, and I don't care for the taste) at a time, and as you can imagine, it sits for quite a while. I haven't noticed a change in taste or performance over the month or so it takes me to consume it, nor do I notice a difference between the last of the fifty and the top of the new fifty. Is it possible that I'm getting stale water (that tastes great, by the way) from my supplier? Is the water in those lil tiny bottles kept from going stale by sealing it (what, not allowing it to oxidize)?
I'm not saying that it isn't happening, I'm just saying that it goes against everything I've ever been taught. Now, I've been handed some stuff and told it was shinola by teachers, so I'll buy that it's possible, but I want a little more than Voodoo and the Saints telling me that it's so. This forum is the only place in the entire world - OK, well, the parts that I've been to anyway - where I've ever even heard of the concept of water going bad. Is it fresh until it gets out of the tap? Or does it go stale underground? How would I know? Is there a test? This smacks more of revival-tent-religion-from-the-back-of-a-moving-truck more than science.
Someone educate me.

Completely off topic, Kikuchiu, I was having a long (and ridiculous, but that's beside the point) conversation about accents and origins, and LA came into it, and it prompted to question whether English is your first or an acquired language. It's way to good to be the work of a native. We don't have that kind of attention to detail, for the most part! No offense intended, it's nice to see the written word used so well!

[cannonfodder]

By Brut do you mean Brewtus? Brewtus brew boiler smallish and only a couple quick flushes to clear old water? It's got a 1.7L brew boiler so two loooooong flushes maybe! But would be true for the S1.

My bad, that is what I get for not checking spec before posting. I thought the Brewtus had a smaller brew boiler and the steam boiler was in the 1+L range. Exhausting day yesterday, brain did not interface with keyboard well.