Should the SCAA recognize 1:3 ratio cappuccinos?

[luca]

...Split from WBC 2007 Finalists announced by moderator....

This is an area of the rules that could be revisited; perhaps to allow 3 to 4 ounce cappa cups and servings, as opposed to the current 5 to 6 ounces.

To what end would we be revising the rules? Is a 1:3 ratio beverage common anywhere? Don't get me wrong; I agree that it would taste better, but I just think that barista comps need to keep in touch with reality. And the sad thing is that I suspect that might mean adding more milk, not less.

Cheers,

Luca

[another_jim]

To what end would we be revising the rules? Is a 1:3 ratio beverage common anywhere?

It's common at the cafes where BC competitors work.

[miKe mcKoffee]

I'm basically surprised that anything except a French roast Sumatra can make it in the Barista competition caps. When judging, one calibrates ones scoring; but overall, the competition caps suffer in comparison to the far less expert double shot ones I make for myself every morning.

Gotcha, and right there with ya.

This is an area of the rules that could be revisited; perhaps to allow 3 to 4 ounce cappa cups and servings, as opposed to the current 5 to 6 ounces.

Actually thinking of competing for the first time at the next Northwest Regional. Wonder how badly I'd get dinged if I used the 3oz ACF "espresso macchiato" cups for the caps! Of course, when I use the 3oz's for macch's it's with a double shot but would be just right for a single shot cap'. You know what, being a first time competitor chances will be slim to none of placing well going against the caliber baristi these parts anyway so why compromise. The caps at my soon to be Roastery Cafe will be 3:1 double shot 6oz ACF Nero cup caps, see no reason not to make the same ratio for competition. That way they will be reflecting more real world Third Wave shop cappuccinos.

[another_jim]

Actually thinking of competing for the first time at the next Northwest Regional. Wonder how badly I'd get dinged if I used the 3oz ACF "espresso macchiato" cups for the caps!

I'm not entirely sure. Probably the judges would score the caps as usual and put a comment on the score sheet to check the cup volume. Once the violation is confirmed, all the cap scores would be changed to zero. They may also disqualify you. I'd have to dig through the rules to find out. Either way, you'd be last by a long way.

[miKe mcKoffee]

I'm not entirely sure. Probably the judges would score the caps as usual and put a comment on the score sheet to check the cup volume. Once the violation is confirmed, all the cap scores would be changed to zero. They may also disqualify you. I'd have to dig through the rules to find out. Either way, you'd be last by a long way.

Hmmm, the rules for last year's NW Regional seems a bit ambiguous.

All styles of cappuccinnos are acceptable.... A traditional (emphasis added) cappuccino is a 5 to 6 ounce beverage...

So might get away with smaller cup size with explanation of purpose, ie exactly the typical ratio served in local Pacific Northwest Third Wave cafes. Besides, why would I not serve the judges the same ratio cappuccino I'd serve a discerning customer rules be damned! OR could use the usual traditional 5 to 6oz cup and push it the other way with a double shot in each but that would be more difficult to serve four simultanesouly and in time frame.

[another_jim]

5.3.5 Correct cappuccino cups used
Cappuccinos should be served in a five-to-six-ounce cup (150-180 ml) with a handle.

This will govern the next round of regionals and nationals; the stuff about "culture" is preamble, not rule.

[miKe mcKoffee]

This will govern the next round of regionals and nationals; the stuff about "culture" is preamble, not rule.

The 2006 regionals had the same verbiage following the cultural preamble I quoted. Again the rules say should not must. I'd argue using a 3oz cup for a single shot cap' is not grounds for disqualification should that arise since it is not stated as mandatory requirement but verbiage I interpret as more a suggestion and the local norm and trend is in fact more 3 to 1 ratio not the milkier 5 to 1. So what if I got scored low, I'd be staying true to the cup and don't expect to have a chance against the likes of Billy and company anyway. Eventually maybe, but not even close yet. If I was disqualified I'd appeal as far as I could on principle.

[another_jim]

The 2006 regionals had the same verbiage following the cultural preamble I quoted. Again the rules say should not must. I'd argue using a 3oz cup for a single shot cap' is not grounds for disqualification should that arise since it is not stated as mandatory requirement but verbiage I interpret as more a suggestion and the local norm and trend is in fact more 3 to 1 ratio not the milkier 5 to 1. So what if I got scored low, I'd be staying true to the cup and don't expect to have a chance against the likes of Billy and company anyway. Eventually maybe, but not even close yet. If I was disqualified I'd appeal as far as I could on principle.

Go ahead and use a 3 ounce cup if you want; you can claim Scots cultural practice for your misunderstanding "should."

[Psyd]

Go ahead and use a 3 ounce cup if you want; you can claim Scots cultural practice for your misunderstanding "should."

With the tone of the conversation on this thread earlier being that 'life imitates art', in that there have been advances in coffeedom initiated at the WBC competitions, (or possibly vice versa), are we of the opinion that the very large milk portions are the result of the WBC rules, or are the rules the result of the lack of tradition in most coffeehouses?
Chicken or egg,?

[another_jim]

With the tone of the conversation on this thread earlier being that 'life imitates art', in that there have been advances in coffeedom initiated at the WBC competitions, (or possibly vice versa), are we of the opinion that the very large milk portions are the result of the WBC rules, or are the rules the result of the lack of tradition in most coffeehouses?
Chicken or egg,?

The 5 to 6 ounce cappa cup is traditional; and I don't know how many Italians order their morning cappa with a single or double shot -- so the way it's done at the barista championships is completely within the bounds of long standing tradition. The problem is that it's a bit of a catch 22 for the baristas. Latte art requires a denser foam, and that results in an insipid drink (too much weight of milk). A cappa with light, but still pourable, foam all the way down will taste better; and get a good score for foam depth. But it runs the risk of not having enough contrast for the appearance score.

My feeling is that under the current rules it takes an amazing amount of skill to make even passable cappas; and I haven't had any I consider really great when judging (I'm too junior to have judged a final, but I have judged several finalists). It has one advantage, the current cappa format makes it a sort of palate rest for the judges.

To me, a great cappa is amazingly creamy and sweet, powerfully roasty tasting (caramel, nuts, chocolate, spice), and carries a hint of fruit. I'm not sure such a confection is possible with the mandated ratios. It's easy enough to test this at home -- make two cappas from a double shot and see how good they can get.

[Psyd]

The 5 to 6 ounce cappa cup is traditional; and I don't know how many Italians order their morning cappa with a single or double shot

Single shot, and in a demitasse, or 'half-cup'. Four ounce cup would accommodate a shot, or something in the neighborhood of a shot, and two or three ounces of milk and foam. That is the Italian tradition, anyhoo. Italian Parliamentary members feel so strongly about this that they've recently passed a law describing this as a cappuccino, and anything else isn't really a cappuccino.
I'm not sure what 'tradition' you were referring to.
My experiences in Italy are rather dated, and I was having cappuccini on the street. I didn't notice the odd looks for ordering a cappuccino after lunch started, but I'm told that they were there. My earliest recollection about the size was that I'd never seen or considered a demitasse, and that it was much smaller than my pops coffee cup.
I don't want to tell the WBC that they're doing stuff wrong, (yeah, right, like they care) but many discussions about the names of things and the reasons for keeping those names with the correct recipes, have arisen here and on other fora lately, and it just seemed odd that the WBC judges would make allowances for art and for those baristi that stretch the definitions while disallowing the original recipe.
I kinda understand allowing a cappu to leak into five and six ounce territory as it becomes a norm (I'd rather see them stand up and fight the bastardization, and call the damn thing a latte, like it is!) but to eschew the original in place of the inaccurate social adaptation, that just seems a bit wrong.
Being new to the whole WBC thing, was the original cappuccino competition spec a five ounce single, or did it evolve to that somewhere along the way?
Or am I just missing some important part?

[another_jim]

Single shot, and in a demitasse, or 'half-cup'. Four ounce cup would accommodate a shot, or something in the neighborhood of a shot, and two or three ounces of milk and foam. That is the Italian tradition, anyhoo. Italian Parliamentary members feel so strongly about this that they've recently passed a law describing this as a cappuccino, and anything else isn't really a cappuccino.

It was my impression that the standard Italian bar-ware cappa cuup is 150mL, or roughly five ounces.

[King Seven]

In truth you will have to work incredibly hard to find a 150ml Italian capp as all the manufacturers (whose cups I have been through several times) don't tend to sell great numbers of anything genuinely smaller than 170ml.

As for recognising the 1:3 cappuccino - why this ratio? It has no history, tradition as no one outside of a very, very small number of cafes globally serves a double shot six ounce capp. (Though I have just realised the ratio implies a double shot 8oz beverage, sort of....)

This is not to say it isn't tasty as a drink - it is. Especially if you love coffee so much that you have accumulated hours of time and energy spent on it - brewing it, drinking it, talking about it, posting about it and when you remember actually enjoying it.

People on here love their coffee, like how it tastes in milk but are really more interested in the coffee - hence the strong milk drinks. I am not entirely convinced that it is enough to dictate drinks and recipes to a wider audience.

Going back to the question asked somewhere else (should probably cross-thread post but will probably forget, sorry) I used a coffee in Tokyo that had such a strong non-coffee taste that it was undeniably present because it tasted nothing like anything else served. The strength of blackcurrant in this lot was peculiar (and what is weirder is that the longer the shot sat before pouring the more intense the smell became), and the drink an alternative to the classic heavy, bassy, chocolate, nuts and roasty. It scored well to the judges who knew blackcurrant as an English word and not as well to those who didn't quite get what I was trying to communicate.

I guess I have always tried to steer away from the overly heavy capp shots because I think, like massively updosed espresso, it is pleasing but too obvious and lacking a bit of subtlety. (very much personal opinion here and not a rule - I've had a few stellar updosed espressos).

[erics]

Good Morning Everybody -

BTW, the WBC Judges Handbook is available here:

http://www.worldbaristachampionsh...dgesManual_001.pdf

From all the photos I have seen of the competitions, the competitors make two "drinks" at a time - is this the standard procedure because of the time limitations? Has anyone seen a competitor use more than one group at a time?

I would agree that the 1:3 ratio (one part espresso, three parts foamed milk) tastes great ! I have four of them every morning.

Mike - Good luck on your cafe and on the competition should you enter.

Jim - " . . . I don't know how many Italians order their morning cappa with a single or double shot . . ." The rationale for an investigative tour just keeps piling up.

[HB]

From all the photos I have seen of the competitions, the competitors make two "drinks" at a time - is this the standard procedure because of the time limitations? Has anyone seen a competitor use more than one group at a time?

This past year it was not uncommon to see competitors locking in and starting the second pour before the first was completed. The technical judges have had two stopwatches around their necks for the last couple years because of this trend. It's doable if you can go from group to doser and back in 20 seconds or less (not me! I'm about double that).

[Navin]

Has anyone seen a competitor use more than one group at a time?

The Swedish barista Costas Pliatsikas pulled four shots simultaneously in his WBC performance.

Navin

[miKe mcKoffee]

The Swedish barista Costas Pliatsikas pulled four shots simultaneously in his WBC performance.

Navin

Wow, I hadn't seen that! Thanks for pointing it out.

[Psyd]

As for recognising the 1:3 cappuccino - why this ratio? It has no history, tradition as no one outside of a very, very small number of cafes globally serves a double shot six ounce capp. (Though I have just realised the ratio implies a double shot 8oz beverage, sort of....)
People on here love their coffee, like how it tastes in milk but are really more interested in the coffee - hence the strong milk drinks. I am not entirely convinced that it is enough to dictate drinks and recipes to a wider audience.

Italian Parliament recently passed a law regarding what is and what is not a cappuccino. I had a link to it somewhere, but I'll be danged if I can find it again. I'll keep trying, and anyone that remembers where the heck that went, feel free to jump right in. Neither can I remember what that legal recipe is, at the moment, but something reminds me of the drink of thirds (which isn't quite the same as the 1:3 ratio, unless you're comparing the amount of espresso to the amount of the drink...)
And I end up wanting a double shot in that 170 ml cup, too. Like I said, my memories of Italy's cappus (and Paris') are that they were in really small cups, and that memory may be painted by time and fondness. In any case, there is a strong faction of 'third wave' baristi that follow the thirds rule and refer to it as a traditional, and it tends to get made 'dry', or with stiff, meringue-like foam.
On to dictating to a wider audience. It would be advantageous if one could order one thing internationally, and get the same thing in the cup when one made that order. It would be great if one could order a thing in one cafe in one's town, and get the same thing from the same shop from baristi on differing shifts. The lack of definition lends itself to revealing the man behind the curtain, and taking away that transparency that you spoke of in the blog about Mark Prince' Barista Creed, about what the barista should strive for. If the barista's interaction with the customer while looking him in the eye and speaking to him is simply to discuss construction and agree on what it is that the barista is to make, I think that puts a bit of a hole in the experience. I think that if anyone is to dictate to a wider audience what a cappuccino is, Italian Parliament or the WBC might be a pretty good place to start. You, and the other contenders, by the virtue of the exposure that you have and will get, have the opportunity to influence the coffee world in this manner. What you call a cappuccino, and latte, and macchiato, etc. will be noticed by others, and imitated. There will be some credence lent to someone if they're in an argument, and pull out, "Hey, of course this is a latte and not a cappu. Look here! James Hoffman says it is!"

I guess my argument isn't so much that a cappu should be either one or the other, but that there should be a thing called a cappuccino, and it should be fairly repeatable, along with all of the other names of drinks that we make. Ferchrissakes, lets not let a chain dictate what is what! ; >

[jesawdy]

Italian Parliament recently passed a law regarding what is and what is not a cappuccino. I had a link to it somewhere, but I'll be danged if I can find it again. I'll keep trying, and anyone that remembers where the heck that went, feel free to jump right in.

Chris, there was a link to this article in Cappuccino vs. Latte. I looked on the National Institute for Italian Espresso pages but couldn't find it, http://www.espressoitaliano.org

At any rate the article claims:

Ingredients

125ml milk, no warmer than 3-5C, containing a minimum of 3.2% protein and 3.5% fat

25ml shot of hot espresso coffee

Directions

Add coffee to a 150-160ml capacity ceramic cup

Froth milk with steam to a temperature of 55C, and add to cup

Add sugar and stir gently

[Psyd]

Thanks jesawdy. The INEI does post it, but only in Italian, as a .pdf. One excerpt that touches on cups and total volume seems to read (according to the Babelfish translation, anyway):

"What is the ideal cup for the cappuccino? White porcelain is a cup of feldspatica china, with a capacity of approximately 160 milliliters, the just measure in order to contain 25 milliliter of espresso and mounted 100 milliliter of milk (that milliliter assumes a 125 volume of approximately)."

'Zat mean that a four to one ration is the 'traditional Italian Capp'? I dunno.
Again, I just want to see some sort of agreement. Imagine if the judges couldn't agree on what 'sweet' was, or 'bitter'. One judge would be calling the espresso bitter while the other three were arguing that it was sweet, all meaning the same thing? Chaos!

<Rant>
Now all y'all baristi know what it's like walking up to you and saying, "A double cappuccino, please". We know we've done what we're supposed to do, but we have no idea whether you'll react well to it or not, depending on what your personal lexicon translates our request into under the portafilter. Depending on that fluid and evershifting lexicon across chains and independent shops, sweating, not knowing if the time-worn effort will result in success or ultimate failure this time, and only finding out after it is too late. Arguing with the barista as to what is what is as successful as arguing with the xBC judges as what constitutes bitter after the scores are tallied. Good luck, there, brotha!
So, once everyone agrees that a capp is 25 ml of espresso and 100ml of steamed milk, (wouldn't that imply that the Italian Parliament and the Italian National Institute of Espresso and the WBC all agree that an espresso is basically four parts milk to one part espresso, with the WBC allowing some lee-way?) what would I call the thing that I want, which is basically the same thing but with two parts milk to one part espresso?
Short?
Dry?
Show of hands? Any other preferred nomenclature? Anyone out there in the professional world wanna help a brother get a simple cuppa joe without going through these kinda changes?
And they want to know where the upsurge in home baristi has come from... We're tired of not getting what we want, dammit, so we've decided that it's worth it to do the danged thing ourselves, even if we have to pay out the nose for the machinery, learn the machinations, buy the best beans at a premium price, and learn enough plumbing to understand and install the filtration system that we need to make the espresso machine survive.
Yeah, I'd be happy to trade money for espresso and cappuccinos. The thing is, it's become easier to go through all that than it has been to 'train' a new barista every time I get the urge for a cappa...
</Rant>

*wheew* OK, I feel a bit better now...