Should I start using a lever espresso machine?

[faberic]

L.S.

I've been using an isomac zaffiro for very long now, and since i'll be moving from my parents, i'll have to leave this one.

If I want to continue roasting, grinding and making espresso, I'll need a new machine.
Now my question is: will a la pavoni europiccola for example suffice for this?
I'd like to work with a lever machine, but I'm a bit scared off by the temperature stability, and the difficulty of pulling a great shot of espresso.

So can I after maybe a few months/weeks of practice make espresso's like I do now (one or two in the morning, one or two in the afternoon?), or is it more advisable to buy a rancilio silvia for example?

I hope you can advise me before I waste money on a La Pavoni.

[IMAWriter]

You won't be "wasting" money On a La Pavoni...however, as one who has used a HX machine for over 4 years, I can say there is a bit of a learning curve, but in my opinion less than you'd think...basically by reading the numerous super quality, informative threads here (skip mine...I'm a noob...or maybe in some way, you'll feel better about yourself )
I pulled a quality shot by the 4th or 5th one...it NEVER would have happened without the wealth of info here.
There are dozens of threads devoted to the Pavoni...including those about the newer machines called "Millenium"
However, there are differences in the profiles, but taste and mouth-feel between a pump machine and a manual. There are even threads here that discuss in detail THAT topic!
Please utilize these resources...you will then be armed with the knowledge you need to make your decision.
Good luck!

[Dogshot]

I've never used a Europiccola, but it's my belief that a spring lever machine like a Ponte Vecchio Export, Lusso, or Elektra Microcasa a Leva, is a much better machine than a Silvia, for the following reasons:

1) On a lever, you can pull shots and steam without waiting (simultaneously on a spring lever).

2) longevity - fewer parts in a lever, and they seem to get used for years and years, rather than get upgraded from after a year or 2.

3) It seems that it is easier to pull a good shot from a lever than from a machine like a Silvia/Gaggia.


Mark

[TUS172]

I owned a Rancilio for years and PID'd it... I was thoroughly impressed with the machine as it made just what I wanted out of it. I got into triple baskets and really enjoyed making 'caps' with it. I tried a La Pavoni 1st... I by no means sold my Silvia right away. Only after a year or so with the Pavonis did I begin to consider getting rid of Miss Silvia.
Perhaps you should get a machine you know you are going to be happy with and then at some point in the future when you want an adventure... go for a Pavoni... You can get used ones on EBay for around $200.00.

[IMAWriter]

I owned a Rancilio for years and PID'd it... I was thoroughly impressed with the machine as it made just what I wanted out of it. I got into triple baskets and really enjoyed making 'caps' with it. I tried a La Pavoni 1st... I by no means sold my Silvia right away. Only after a year or so with the Pavonis did I begin to consider getting rid of Miss Silvia.
Perhaps you should get a machine you know you are going to be happy with and then at some point in the future when you want an adventure... go for a Pavoni... You can get used ones on EBay for around $200.00.

Not really well maintained used ones...
But Bob C is offering good advice...I love my HX Anita....especially since installing Eric's thermometer probe...easy to do $69 at Chris Coffee.
If steaming and pulling at the same time is your desire, most HX machines will do you well.

[TUS172]

Not really well maintained used ones...

I have been buying and selling used espresso machines on Ebay for 3 years now. Of the 8 or so La Pavonis that I've bought I have never paid more than 210.00 and have gotten them as low as 150.00. The ones that needed service were obvious and the seller usually will say so.
If the product is not as advertised and you have used PayPal you can dispute the seller's representation and get the needed adjustment. If the seller has a good feedback and has sold a number of items on EBay they are usually more than willing to settle any kind of dispute. Especially when Paypal freezes funds in their account due to the dispute. I always use Papal for that very reason.
The bottom line is that for around $200.00 you can get a good used La Pavoni on EBay. Just be careful, ask questions, use PayPal and go with a seller that has a good rep...

[CafSuperCharged]

Eric,

The other forista might overlook you are moving out from your parents'. So you might be on a student's budget now?
To me, the main starting question is, what grinder will you use? If it is not so good, you may not need advice on a good espresso machine at all.
As IMAwriter mentioned, many of the issues have already been treated in this site.
It should not be too difficult to find a discussion on the rituals of different lever machines needed to get real good coffee. My understanding is it is in the timing from switching on as they slowly get hotter. That could mean you might end up switching on, waiting/timing between each of your 4 cups a day. But then, leverologists might have a ritual for having the second coffee in the morning at the proper temperature as well.
The second starting question is really if you would do (frequent) milk drinks, in which case you might want to skip on single boiler non-HX espresso machines (when also regarding pump machines).

Regards
Peter
Netherlands
Europe

[IMAWriter]

Eric,

The other forista might overlook you are moving out from your parents'. So you might be on a student's budget now?
To me, the main starting question is, what grinder will you use? If it is not so good, you may not need advice on a good espresso machine at all.
As IMAwriter mentioned, many of the issues have already been treated in this site.
It should not be too difficult to find a discussion on the rituals of different lever machines needed to get real good coffee. My understanding is it is in the timing from switching on as they slowly get hotter. That could mean you might end up switching on, waiting/timing between each of your 4 cups a day. But then, leverologists might have a ritual for having the second coffee in the morning at the proper temperature as well.
The second starting question is really if you would do (frequent) milk drinks, in which case you might want to skip on single boiler non-HX espresso machines (when also regarding pump machines).

Regards
Peter
Netherlands
Europe

Great advice from Peter...as an owner of a really good HX machine (Heat exchanger E61 group) I most wholeheartedly that if you enjoy milk drinks a HX is a good choice...not that the experienced lever person (I am not) probably does just as well. I underline the word Experience

[Spironski]

As you can see in my profile I own both a lever and a HX. I find it easier to make a really good cup on the HX, the lever is finicky (you really need a very good grinder and technique, I find that the margins of error are smaller than with an HX). I bought the lever, new, on Ebay for € 220, so it can be done! I think my lever is beautiful, it can make very tasty espresso, but is a little difficult, and overheating is an issue.
However, I bought my HX on Marktplaats for only € 375 (plus grinder), so there are very good deals to make! Just look for the less common names (so don't look for the Domobar). I have to admit, that 90% of the time I use the HX, just because it is more convenient (and use of a triple basket!).

if it is only because of the price: think again. If you like a lever: go ahead!

[caeffe]

I have been buying and selling used espresso machines on Ebay for 3 years now. Of the 8 or so La Pavonis that I've bought I have never paid more than 210.00 and have gotten them as low as 150.00. The ones that needed service were obvious and the seller usually will say so.
If the product is not as advertised and you have used PayPal you can dispute the seller's representation and get the needed adjustment. If the seller has a good feedback and has sold a number of items on EBay they are usually more than willing to settle any kind of dispute. Especially when Paypal freezes funds in their account due to the dispute. I always use Papal for that very reason.
The bottom line is that for around $200.00 you can get a good used La Pavoni on EBay. Just be careful, ask questions, use PayPal and go with a seller that has a good rep...

The bulk of used europiccola's I see go for more than $200 (in the 250 and up range), but i agree that once in a while you can find one but they usually have some sort of issue with them. I got mine for around $200 but it had not filter basket and no drip tray (drip tray ~20, basket ~20). I think one needs to know what makes these things tick and how much the parts will cost you to fix so that one know the actual final value.

Check CG, someone usually sells theirs there ....

[shadowfax]

The bottom line is that for around $200.00 you can get a good used La Pavoni on EBay. Just be careful, ask questions, use PayPal and go with a seller that has a good rep...

Can't stress this enough. I got mine for $200. It was 20 years old and had virtually no signs of wear and tear except minor scaling. A quick teardown and it was clean as new and pulls great shots. By far the best machine you can buy in terms of the quality/price ratio. It blows everything else I have seen out of the water. Mostly because while it's a little inconsistent, there is nothing even close to it in price range. You can get some nasty ones on eBay, too. A friend of mine has one (and it wasn't a surprise when he bought it). You really just need patience.

[CafSuperCharged]

You really just need patience.

I get the impression you need this when you want to buy a good one, and next when you have the coffee ritual.
The fact that so many machines are in the second hand market could be an indication that many people who bought these things as nice looking gimmicks did not have the patience to develop the ritual. Weren't aware of limitations.
Then their machine ended up in the attic/garage (little scaling, as new, ...).
This also means, if you buy a new one, depreciation is extreme.

Regards
Peter
Netherlands
Europe

[faberic]

Thanks for your replies.

I've read a lot, but I can't make a decision. The lever machines are beautiful but they seem strange in the world of espresso lovers. They aren't used at barista competitions as far as I know.

You guys talk a lot about milk drinks. I don't drink them very often, at most one cappuccino a week. I love espresso so much that i'd rather make two in the morning instead of preparing a cappuccino.
So milk drinks isn't the point, if i'm able to make good espresso i'd be very happy.

But my major concerns are the temperature stability (is there a possibility to use PID or something), the strangeness in baristaworld and things like the little portafilter which is odd as well in the world of E61.

The "normal" machines however provide a nice E61 grouphead, fairly easy temperature control and old 58mm baskets. It's just that lever machines,especially la pavoni, are so new to me. Many people here own a lever machine and a normal machine, but that is not an option for me!

I hope for more replies so I can decide.

[Spironski]

Right at this time, there are 13 La Pavoni's on Marktplaats. Most of them will go for less than €200 (or even €150) and seem to be in good shape, refurbished, or even new.
Why don't you buy one of them, and decide after three months or so if you are a "Leverman"? If not, just sell it again for (almost) the same price...

[TUS172]

Right at this time, there are 13 La Pavoni's on Marktplaats. Most of them will go for less than €200 (or even €150) and seem to be in good shape, refurbished, or even new.
Why don't you buy one of them, and decide after three months or so if you are a "Leverman"? If not, just sell it again for (almost) the same price...

Agreed... PIDing a lever is a bit extreme but has been done... Look up Starry's posts on what he did . It is very involved. But PIDing a machine is not that essential and if you are doing only 2 in the morning it is not an issue at all. Perhaps you are over thinking this one... Jump in and get the experience.

[CafSuperCharged]

Eric,

Check the La Pavoni vs. Elektra thread. Two fundamentally different lever machines, however both the simplest you can get. La Pavoni uses steam pressure to fill the cylinder under the lever operated piston after which you, the barista, deliver the lever-actuated pressure on piston/water to press the water through the grinds. Idle position: lever down. Eureka has a spring loaded piston where the barisa raises the piston with the lever (water flows into the cylinder) and the spring pushes the piston/water down again. Idle position: lever up.
Large commercial lever machines have been a long tradition and you will find them through Italy, with Napoli (Naples) being sort of famous for it. Be aware going to the South, coffee taste profile changes from lighter roast (Illy, Lavazza) in the North to darker in the South (so you would not blame the lever).
If/when you are in Amsterdam, go to "De Koffiesalon" in the Utrechtsestraat (tram line 4, exit Prinsengracht, towards Frederiksplein on your right hand side). They have a Kees van der Westen machine, Idrocompresso, with three lever groups (cf. Eureka). Here, gravity fills the cylinder from the boiler, I believe. That machine is on a PID, btw. Kees also does an E/61 pump version of this machine which you can taste just next to Leidseplein (tram line 1 and 2, or a line from near Frederiksplein that follows Weteringcircuit - ask directions) in Palladium restaurant (just go there, sit at the bar and order caffè). Experiences in De Koffiesalon not really consistent, yet always a 7.5 or more. Palladium was excellent (9~10). They use the same coffee I use at home: Roman espresso bar style from either Palombini (Gran Bar) or Buscaglione (Euro Bar).

Matthijs' (Spironski) advice really makes sense. Unless you are afraid you lose too much if you want to sell again after a few months. So many of these machines being for sale second hand, to me is an indication many people, probably before the internet, bought these expensive coffee gimmicks, did not bother to learn/discover the ritual and put them in the attic. Now they bought senseless pad machines and are clearing the attic.
In the NL you are not likely to find a 2nd hand Eureka a leva, I guess.

Regards
Peter
Netherlands
Europe

[grong]

I had an enjoyed a Zaffiro for three years, this following many years with Rancillio Audrey and Gaggia Coffee Classic. When I bought my Ponte Vecchio Lusso, I thought it would be a nice complement to my Zaffiro. After a year of owning both machines I realized I had only use the Zaffiro about three times during that period—I simply love the PV Lusso. So I sold the Zaffiro, and am most happy with my lever Lusso.

[orphanespresso]

Just to chime in here, to the original should I buy a lever question....the simple answer is yes, yes, yes!!!! We are dedicated leverheads and it took just one lever to do it....a La Peppina, with no overheating problems due to the open boiler, and are now nutz over our Caravel. We have an Oly, Microcimabali, rivieras both manual and spring piston, La Pavoni euroPic et al and find more enjoyment with these than the HX's of our past. We originally felt that we were "trading down" from our Giotto but were actually trading up in the quality, if not the absolute joy of lever espresso. Sometimes the small home levers get shuttled off to toyland in the opinion of the heavy hardware folks, bless 'em all, but they are serious little machines that make some serious espresso. And the Faema Faemina, from my cold dead hand......
Doug and Barb

[faberic]

you guys convinced me, now I'm in the possession of a La Pavoni Professional Lusso and a nice RB-Tamper (200 euros altogether).

[Spironski]

Congrats! Keep us posted on your learnings and advancements. It is good to know that you are back-upped by a fantastic forum here.