Should I home roast for espresso? Help and advice needed

[werbin]

Should I home roast for espresso?
I am not sure if it makes sense for me to home roast.

I have an Expobar Brewtus II double boiler espresso machine and a Mazzer Mini grinder.
I really like beans like Black Cat etc. But, I only use about a pound a week and if I order in quantity, the beans will begin to get stale before I use them.

I read a lot about home roasting here and at Sweet Marias.

The factors that are driving me to home roasting are:
1. Fresher beans
2. Lower costs. Shipping costs for 1 - 2 pounds of quality espresso beans drives the price up awfully high. Maybe $15 -20 / pound.
3. It might be fun and educational to roast my own beans.

Here are my questions.
1. Is it really hard to learn how to roast green beans for high quality espresso?
Reading here, it sounds like it can take up a year to learn how to do it well.
2. Which roaster should I get?
The I-Roast II sounds interesting. I think I want a programmable model. I don't want to spend $500 for
a roaster. I would want something small but good.
I have read that the I-Roast II is both noisy and smokey. Is that really a problem?

What about the Behmor Electric Drum Coffee Roaster?
3. Where should I look for green beans for espresso.

[shadowfax]

I have a Behmor 1600. I've roasted about 4 lbs. (in 8 ~1/2 lb. batches) in it so far. Before that, I had a popcorn popper. It was a super-PITA, and not very good results (IMO). And I had it modded out quite a lot (The dimmer on the fan and the switch on the heating element). The Behmor is easy to learn on and stable. It's plenty of work to roast beans, but in my experience the only work is when you stop the roast. I let it cool down till it's hot to touch, take out the drum and empty them into a stainless colander, and then sift them from one bowl to another in front of a big fan--to get rid of the chaff--and also to pick out any rocks or anything else that may remain.

Again, all the work is there. The roast profiles, in my experience, are quite consistent. The cracks occur within seconds of each other for 2 batches of the same size/bean with the same settings. I think that's really impressive. The results in the cup really wow me. I suppose that they might not impress you if you were a true connoisseur/snob that insists only professionals can roast proper coffee, but if you just enjoy excellent coffee with interesting, sometimes surprising tastes (I haven't had any bad surprises with the Behmor yet), you will really like this stuff. The cost argument is very compelling as well. I just ordered 18 lbs. from SM for less than $120 shipped. Of course, if you value your time for other hobbies, that argument won't take you TOO far.

So, all that said, I think that you really have to be into the roasting for the fun and learning. If you aren't, the cost argument makes no sense. But, if you are into it, it's some SERIOUS icing on the cake.

[another_jim]

Your home roasts won't taste like Black Cat. For the first few years you roast, your roasts won't even be close to to top commercial quality; after that, if you source your beans well, and did your homework, they'll be in the ballpark. But they still won't taste like Black Cat or any other of your fave blends (if you think they do, you haven't done your homework)

Home roasting is a hard core hobby, not a way to save money (unless you don't value your time). It's expensive and/or time consuming, smoky, and messy. It is one very lousy way to save money on espresso.

But if you want to become really expert in coffee, you will have to roast and taste for a few years.

[keno]

Should I home roast for espresso?

Yes, based on the reasons you list. I got into home roasting for the same reasons and I wouldn't go back to buying roasted beans.

Is it really hard to learn how to roast green beans for high quality espresso?

No. If you read up on it and pay attention to what you're doing you should be able to get a decent roast fairly quickly - much better than your average store bought beans and probably better than many local roasters. Will you match the best artisan roasters? No, to roast at that level takes years of experience and better equipment.

Which roaster should I get?

I started with an i-Roast (aka i-Toast and i-Roar). I would definitely NOT recommend it. I have been very happy with the Gene Cafe roaster. It works so much better: easier, quieter, and better roast.

I have read that the I-Roast II is both noisy and smokey. Is that really a problem?

The noise is so loud you can barely hear first crack and can't hear second crack. The smokiness is not too bad as long as you're doing it outside. Forget inside, but you might be able to do it in the garage with a powerful fan. The roasts are very unpredictable with the i-Roast due to poor temperature control (don't let the programmable roasts fool you). The batch size is also so small it can get frustrating roasting so often.

What about the Behmor Electric Drum Coffee Roaster?

Don't know much about it, but it seems like a bad design to me. Spend a little more on a Gene Cafe or Hottop, you won't regret it. These two machines are tried and true. Comparing them to an i-Roast is like comparing a nice E-61 machine to a Krups.

Where should I look for green beans for espresso.

Try different things--that's half the fun of home roasting. I like the excitement of roasting a new bean, trying a new blend, or experimenting with different roasts. I found a local roaster in Tampa that sells green beans (http://www.ccmcoffee.com/). They are cheaper than most other places and taste great.

Good luck!

Ken

[luca]

I think that Jim has given you great advice.

One thing that you might like to try is ordering a month's worth of coffee and freezing some of it. People's opinions differ on what the outcome will be. Don't listen to them. Try it for yourself. It's not a huge investment.

You can also dip your toe in the water with roasting pretty easily. Some beans and a popcorn popper will probably leave you with change from a $50. I'd start off roasting for drip. Make sure that you deliberately over and under-roast some beans to get an idea for what roast mistakes taste like. Once you have had a go, you will be in a more informed position to make a decision.

As Jim said, if you want to improve your roasts as quickly as possible, you certainly won't be saving money for some time. The best approach would be to buy a fair bit of commercially roasted coffee, as well as roasting a few lots of your own at a time to compare. You will probably churn through quite a bit of coffee just working out the right sorts of roast profiles and resting times, as well as throwing out green that you deem to be worthless. You will need to spend a fair bit of time roasting multiple batches at once and doing side-by-side tasting. Of course, you can take it easy and do less than this, but I doubt that you will get the results that you seek very quickly ... and if you do, it will probably be more through blind luck than through having learnt how to roast.

Jim also touched on the difficulty of green coffee selection. That's a whole minefield, for sure!

Hope that helps,

Luca

[sweaner]

Ken, why does the Behmor seem like a bad design? It has gotten some very good reviews and is reasonably priced.

[prof_stack]

The Behmor is a GREAT roaster, at its price point or more. There are LOTS of very satisfied users. I think the roasters (Hottop, Gene, Behmor, iRoast, etc) get a more even handed analysis at coffeegeek.com than at HB.

Also, as mentioned above, a simple popper with simple mods can produce good roasts. It's also a good starting point for learning the craft.

Yes, you will have to pay your dues to make roasts like the top pro's.

[sweaner]

I roast with a popper (Poppery II) with good success. It is fun and easy. It can be done without any mods, thermometers, etc. My biggest problem is having the patience to wait for the coffee to rest. Patience is not one of my virtues.

[keno]

Ken, why does the Behmor seem like a bad design? It has gotten some very good reviews and is reasonably priced.

As I said I really don't know much about this machine (or have any personal experience). But some reviews have identified some significant limitations of the Behmor. Here are some from a review on Sweet Maria's:

http://www.sweetmarias.com/prod.b...ay_pros_cons.shtml

There are some significant limitations to this machine. According to the manual:

-You can safely roast only 20 seconds into second crack. Darker roasts are possible - see the section on the Using the Behmor page called "Breakin' the Law".

-The roaster is not designed to roast heavily chaffed, dry processed coffees - again the danger here is fire because the beans and chaff remain in the drum with the heating element. We did roast some heavily chaffed coffees, but not dark, and always were extra vigilant. A small chaff fire or sparks are a possibility especially as the cooling cycle kicks in and there is greater air flow.

- The drum that comes with the machine is not designed to handle long bean or small bean Ethiopian or Yemen coffees. Peaberries work OK, but expect to get a few stuck in the drum mesh. There will to be an alternate drum with a smaller grid size available in the future.

-You can modify the profiles to some degree - but there is not the level of customization available with the HotTop Programmable or even the Gene Cafe, both of which enable you to change temperature and time infinitely. Also, you can only change profiles before beginning a roast cycle and not midway through.

-Visibility of the roast is an issue. Behmor suggests cutting a hole in the chaff tray screen which definitely helps visibility, but greatly increases the amount of chaff blowing around inside the roaster which could cause fires. Do this modification at your own risk. Contact Behmor through their website for instructions on cutting the hole.


I'm sure that it's a great machine for some people, but I wouldn't want a machine that can't handle dry process beans, Ethiopians, or do a dark roast.

Cheers,
Ken

[prof_stack]

I'll soften up the Behmor criticisms a little bit. Having actually used the machine for several months I'll add some commentary. The "honeymoon" phase is long past. Now its a tool to get great coffee beans.

---------------------------------------------

Some reviews have identified some significant limitations of the Behmor.

This is really open to interpretation. Limitations, yes. Significant? you decide.

-You can safely roast only 20 seconds into second crack. Darker roasts are possible ...

This was put into the manual as a lawyer laden liability concern. You CAN roast longer than that and you can get a dark roast. Again, from actual experience.

-The roaster is not designed to roast heavily chaffed, dry processed coffees - again the danger here is fire because the beans and chaff remain in the drum with the heating element. We did roast some heavily chaffed coffees, but not dark, and always were extra vigilant. A small chaff fire or sparks are a possibility especially as the cooling cycle kicks in and there is greater air flow.

I would say this is true if you roast a whole pound of the chaffy stuff. Most Behmor owners by now realize that it is best suited for 14 ounces or less at a time. Some reviewers have stated they thought it to be a great 8 oz roaster. I usually roast 6 to 8 ounces as our coffee needs are not that great right now. Notice that the review said that chaff could produce a fire, but never had it happen to them. Not to me either, so far.

- The drum that comes with the machine is not designed to handle long bean or small bean Ethiopian or Yemen coffees. Peaberries work OK, but expect to get a few stuck in the drum mesh. There will to be an alternate drum with a smaller grid size available in the future.

The future is now. The smaller grid drum is $20 and I use it for most of my roasts these days. A little bit of chaff stays inside but is blown off when the drum is emptied.

-You can modify the profiles to some degree - but there is not the level of customization available with the HotTop Programmable or even the Gene Cafe, both of which enable you to change temperature and time infinitely. Also, you can only change profiles before beginning a roast cycle and not midway through.

This is true and one reason the Gene and Hottop cost more money. But using profiles P2 through P5 do allow some fiddling mid-roast with the time durations of the roast levels. I'd like more control than that.

-Visibility of the roast is an issue. Behmor suggests cutting a hole in the chaff tray screen which definitely helps visibility, but greatly increases the amount of chaff blowing around inside the roaster which could cause fires. Do this modification at your own risk. Contact Behmor through their website for instructions on cutting the hole.

For a newbie, the lack of visibility would be problematic. I haven't cut the hole in the chaff screen yet. The movement of the chaff is unlikely to find its way up there. I pretty much roast by smell and sound with the Behmor. I don't know about Gene or Hottop, but I presume they have better visilbility.

I'm sure that it's a great machine for some people, but I wouldn't want a machine that can't handle dry process beans, Ethiopians, or do a dark roast.

It handles the dry process beans, Ethiopians (one of my favorites), and does dark roasts just fine.

------------------------------------------------------------
Now I'll add some of my own criticisms:

- I wish it had a count up timer as well as a count down timer.

- I wish the bean or drum temperature were shown during the roast.

- It is voltage sensitive. Many CG Behmor posters have purchased the $20 Kill-A-Watt unit to track their house current. I had to buy a thick gauge extension cord and move to an different outlet to make sure the roasts finish on time. Even with that, our electric grid still drops the voltage 5V at full load of the Behmor.

- You'd think that using 1/2# of beans would mean selecting the 1/2# setting on the machine. With the basic P1 profile and good voltage perhaps. But its best to select 1# to get more minutes for the roast. The built in safeties were put in to not overroast the beans and cause fires with resulting lawsuits. I have heard of Hottops and Genes catching fire and I think Joe Behm wanted to minimize that chance.

---------------------------------------------
I don't see the Behmor as the perfect roaster, but I sure am pleased with the roasts it delivers. Other Behmor users should offer their opinions as well.

Good luck with your roasting hobby.

[MellowCat]

well said about the behmor.
one more thing, a tip picked up somewhere on the net - if roasting small bean ethiopian/yemens (and I do a lot), you can just hit 'cool' first for a few minutes with the beans in the drum, and the few beans which are too small will fall out the drum onto to chaff tray, which you can then toss away. It's really about a gram or two of runtish beans at most. This saves having to get the small-mesh drum!

[prof_stack]

Tonight I did a dark roast on the Behmor and thought I'd share a photo of the dark roast, based on the discussion above.
Specifics: 8.4 oz Nicaragua Java Longberry (from SM). [1#] [P2] [A] (18 minutes preset but up to 23:30 are allowed for [1#] [P2] ).

Using profile [P2] the first crack got extended and with less than a minute to go on the timer the second crack came along. I could have extended the time, but let it continue the second crack for 50 seconds before starting the cooling cycle. Lots of 2nd crack smoke came out. Good thing I roast outside. It usually takes another 20-30 seconds for the cooling to get the beans to stop cracking, so I knew this was a darker roast than I usually do, but in the interest of science (and this site) I let it go longer. Besides, I like a darker roast once in a while.

Anyhow, here is the photo:

The lighter beans are from the camera flash, the rest are pretty even and dark in color. Wonderful roasty aroma and still not as dark as Charbucks.

[IMAWriter]

We Behmor users have somewhat hijacked the OP's thread...still...
Having over 14 months experience with the Behmor (I was a Beta tester for Joe), I can testify that using the smaller grid basket (one of..ahem...MY suggestions), I've obtained the most evenly roasted Harar and Sidamo's since I';ve been roasting, more even than my other method, the Convection Oven/UFO combo....which, BTW, is another method for the OP.
Even my Yemeni roasts, a devilishly difficult bean to get right, are more evenly roasted in the Behmor.
Again, I agree the 1600 ain't perfect, but it does it's job very well, and for a very fair price.

[werbin]

Don't worry about hijacking the thread. I am finding the Behmor comments very useful.

We Behmor users have somewhat hijacked the OP's thread...still...
.

Right now my thinking is that with home roasting I will not be able to get the very top quality results until I have a lot of experience but that I will be able to get much fresher beans by home roasting.

Does that sound right?

That is important to me since my experience ordering top beans is that they are great when I get them but by the time I have finished the beans they have gotten stale and the quality is disappointing even if I freeze them as soon as they arrive.

I am also thinking that the affordable home roasters are all compromises. The I-Roast 2 has programmable profiles but it is smokey and may break down within 2 years. So far the Behmor sounds like the best compromise. But, are there any others? Is Behmor planning a newer version soon that addresses some of its limitations?

How reliable is the Behmor in the long run? I really don't want to spend $300 and find that it is going to break down soon. I do have a concern that the Behmor is very large.

I also have a concern that you have to hit the cool button immediately after hearing the second crack. What happens if you don't hear the second crack and don't hit the cool button? Fire? Damage to Behmor?

[IMAWriter]

Don't worry about hijacking the thread. I am finding the Behmor comments very useful.


Right now my thinking is that with home roasting I will not be able to get the very top quality results until I have a lot of experience but that I will be able to get much fresher beans by home roasting.

Does that sound right?

That is important to me since my experience ordering top beans is that they are great when I get them but by the time I have finished the beans they have gotten stale and the quality is disappointing even if I freeze them as soon as they arrive.

I am also thinking that the affordable home roasters are all compromises. The I-Roast 2 has programmable profiles but it is smokey and may break down within 2 years. So far the Behmor sounds like the best compromise. But, are there any others? Is Behmor planning a newer version soon that addresses some of its limitations?

How reliable is the Behmor in the long run? I really don't want to spend $300 and find that it is going to break down soon. I do have a concern that the Behmor is very large.

I also have a concern that you have to hit the cool button immediately after hearing the second crack. What happens if you don't hear the second crack and don't hit the cool button? Fire? Damage to Behmor?

First off...the Behmor is not very large...go to Joes web site...
@nd, the 1st minute of cooling, the beans are still at a high temp, so the roast continues somwhat...stopped at first few 2nd snaps, the extra 45 seconds will easily take you to a full city..almost full city +
Lastly, I woulk say it would better for you right now to concentrate(as a previous poster said) on roasting SO(single origin) coffees...for your vac pot/press/drip, etc.
You can roast a nice Brazil or El Salvador for a great espresso as well.
Creating your own espresso blends is tricky enough, roasting them to get each beans maximum potential, as Jim said, is a lifes work...or hobby!
Why not the 12oz espresso's available at Counter Culture and others...or 14oz bags as well. I bet a roaster would pro rate a bag at 12oz for you...it's the shipping that will kill you....
This coffee thing is not for the faint of heart. But read about the different roasting techniques on CG.com.
You'll get there!
Good Luck.

[prof_stack]

Although I am obviously a Behmor fan, I think the main advantage of home roasting with any type roaster is the FRESHNESS of the beans you have.

Why not start simple and get a Poppery II (or a I if you can find it), or Proctor-Silex Pumper? That and a long extension cord and you can start roasting in small batches with some control over the product. You'll learn the craft with more repetitions and will then be better able to decide what type of serious home roaster you need. You can find them in thrift stores most any weekend. I did MANY roasts this way and then graduated to the Turbo Oven/Stir Crazy roaster and most recently the Behmor.

Sweet Maria's blends of green beans are great. Monkey Blend and Liquid Amber are my two favorites. But you'll learn more about different beans if you roast single orgins for a while.

Have fun.

[another_jim]

Let's get back to part A of the original topic:

Should I home roast for espresso?
I am not sure if it makes sense for me to home roast.

I have an Expobar Brewtus II double boiler espresso machine and a Mazzer Mini grinder.
I really like beans like Black Cat etc. But, I only use about a pound a week and if I order in quantity, the beans will begin to get stale before I use them.

I read a lot about home roasting here and at Sweet Marias.

I take the question to be whether home roasting will deliver adequate quality.

Let me suggest an analogy. I've been cooking for myself, from scratch, for 35 years.

Until recently, I never made a big deal of it. I enjoy the process, and it saved a lot of money compared to eating even fast food. The time I spent wasn't all that much: I'm a fast chopper, and a big stew or crockpot doesn't take a lot of personal time. But when I was cooking this way, eating out at any $15 restaurant was a real treat.

About 12 years ago, I caught the bug, and started trying to cook better. By now I've gotten fairly proficient. I spend a lot more time, and my grocery bill is higher. However, when I do eat out now, I need to eat at a very good or very ethnic place if it's going to be anything I enjoy.

Some home roasters roast like I used to cook; some roast the way I cook now. There's nothing wrong with doing it the plain way, if you enjoy the process; but be aware that Black Cat is the coffee equivalent of a very fancy restaurant.

My opinion on the Behmor. It is very definitely at the plain end of coffee roasting: using one for roasting espresso is like using a Ronco rotisserie for barbecue. Your ribs won't win any prizes, and your espresso won't taste like Black Cat. Sorry.

[prof_stack]

My opinion on the Behmor. It is very definitely at the plain end of coffee roasting: using one for roasting espresso is like using a Ronco rotisserie for barbecue. Your ribs won't win any prizes, and your espresso won't taste like Black Cat. Sorry.

Good one, Jim.

But that's also my take on the Gene and Hottop. Yours too?

[shadowfax]

Some home roasters roast like I used to cook; some roast the way I cook now. There's nothing wrong with doing it the plain way, if you enjoy the process; but be aware that Black Cat is the coffee equivalent of a very fancy restaurant.

My opinion on the Behmor. It is very definitely at the plain end of coffee roasting: using one for roasting espresso is like using a Ronco rotisserie for barbecue. Your ribs won't win any prizes, and your espresso won't taste like Black Cat. Sorry.

Of course, Jim, seems like if you don't have your method totally down and your equipment isn't quite high-end, buying Black Cat and brewing it at home might be the food equivalent of buying Kobe beef and taking it home and grilling it on your gas grill to medium well...

I dunno what I think about your statement, though. I come from considerably less experience and unquestionably a less refined palate, but I've been quite happy with my own roasting results vs. pro roasts--on my own equipment, with my own technique as a home-barista with 3 years of experience on 3-4 machine/grinder combinations.

Anyway, my own interpretation of the CCC vs. Behmor group taste testing thread is that the Behmor might give you a pound of award winning coffee, but you won't be able to predict it--or repeat it predictably. Seems like its tolerance as far as consistency goes are acceptably low for an enthusiast but not for a professional. But that's just my opinion as a still moderate novice.

[MellowCat]

the behmor has bugs the size footballs we are well aware, but if you have some good basic knowledge of roasting and controlling heat (just as you might with your good analogy to cooking Jim), it provides a platform to compete very favourably to what's available in the same league, ie Gene Cafe and Hottop.

I have to add that earlier this year, I had both Intelly Black Cat and a home roast of a certain Brazilian Yellow Bourbon, alongside another DP Brazil (M. Formosa) to hand, and I eventually left the Black Cat on the shelf for my (successful) home roasts from the behmor. It happened to be at the same time Intelligentsia were reported to be changing the Black Cat blend, but still, having a top-notch roaster's product on the same table as your own roasts and having that comparison, it gives some perspective to what quality you can get at home.