Should I home roast for espresso? Help and advice needed - Page 2

[another_jim]

But that's also my take on the Gene and Hottop. Yours too?

I don't know the Gene. I give high marks to the Hottop as an off the shelf roaster, especially for espresso; and people who have put in the work have learned to profile it. I personally prefer a roaster that can operate in the 8 to 13 minute range, so it can be used for both brewed and espresso. I'm no expert on the Hottop, perhaps with a lower charge it can go this fast.

The issue with the Bemor, from the roasts I've seen and tasted, was damage to the bean surface. Under a loupe, one could see a marbling of scorch marks, wrinkles, and cracks. It looked like the IR was overheating the bean surface when the beans were in their glass phase, so they shattered, scorched and failed to expand.

Good roasting is mostly a question of putting in the hours until one gets good on the equipment one has. I have no doubt the Bemor can do better than the roasts I saw. But it seems like it may take more work, and that there may be an upper limit on how well it can do.

[Christophe]

Hi,

Just want give my opinion, If you want to have a wonderful espresso at home by including home roasting in your process, you chose the good way.

Nobody talk about that, in this thread but, never forget that home roasting must match parameters such as

your tastes, your bean and your machine (not focused on the group but the entire package : group, boiler control device or not etc...) .

If you not consider the entire process and the goal to improve all the time, you can have that's everybody call regular great coffee, with a bemor with a Hot top or Gene with a XYZ serious machine, it's not complex but with forumer's post and advices the training period is short.

If you really want to understand why coffee (Grand cru) is rated over 90 (don't forgot that rating not use the espresso process !!) and find the complex flavours difference, you need to adapt profile roasting to your equipment and tune the equipment, it's not easy. I 'm tyred to see that XXX is better than YYY such E61 is not as efficient as Marzo group etc... For understand, I roast with specific profile for my e61 and have great results (different) and on a over side other specific profiles for a Pavoni lever. Today I'll never say that XX is better than YYY, just that some machine are easier to "understand" than other...Ok Sometime I say that Microcimbali isn't adapt to SO grand cru coffee.

So to choice a roaster with the goal to have a custom optimized coffee ,
I need to see easily the bean during the roast (size and color), for me the smokes, flavors aren't enough to have that I search. Consider that if you buy a panama auction (very expensive and small lot) you have only the possibility to make 2 or 3 batches (one pound limitation from the provider), I would be afraid to waste this coffee if I can't tune the profile according that I see in real time, so it would be a shame to not optimize this type of coffee, great coffee isn't enough in that case, the cup must be something like you never forget.

A+

[Fullsack]

I don't know the Gene. I give high marks to the Hottop as an off the shelf roaster, especially for espresso; and people who have put in the work have learned to profile it. I personally prefer a roaster that can operate in the 8 to 13 minute range, so it can be used for both brewed and espresso. I'm no expert on the Hottop, perhaps with a lower charge it can go this fast.

A 225 gram load with an approximate roast time of 18 minutes, seems to be the sweet spot for the HotTop. I've tried smaller batch sizes, higher load temps and various different fan combinations with inferior results. Ian has been asserting something like this for a while, but I had to find out for myself. If you must have a roaster that roasts in the 8 to 13 minute range, the HotTop isn't for you. That being said, I'll rephrase Jim's statement, the HotTop is the best off the shelf roaster for the home espresso roaster and I do know the Gene.

I roasted for almost a year alternating between a Gene and a HotTop. I got much better tasting beans from the HotTop, so I finally eBayed the Gene. The only advantage I could see, of the Gene over the HotTop, was that the Gene looked cooler sitting on my kitchen counter. The Gene touts its flexibility with roasting profiles, but with all of my research and experimenting, I couldn't come up with a profile that would produce the complexity of flavors that the digital HotTop could produce. Also, the HotTop was quieter, so it was much easier to hear the cracks. February 27, 2007

[seacliff dweller]

The issue with the Bemor, from the roasts I've seen and tasted, was damage to the bean suface. Under a loupe, one could see a marbling of scorch marks, wrinkles, and cracks. It looked like the IR was overheating the bean surface when the beans were in their glass phase, so they shattered, scorched and failed to expand.

I am a bit confused about the bemor. I know it has quartz heating element and I thought it is infrared, but Joe at Bemor told me it is not infrared. I use far infrared for heating but does not have the issues as discussed. The problem could be something else - too close to the heating element or drum rotation speed too slow?

[another_jim]

There have been two commercial IR roasters in the 2 pound charge range, one using Halogen lamps (can't remember the name), and one using quartz elements, the Digiroaster by Imex, the same people who make the Rosto. Both were withdrawn around 2002, after being on the market a year or so, because of frequent bean fires and ongoing roast quality problems. Some small Diedrichs units have an electric heat option that uses quartz element heaters, but they are shielded and don't radiate the beans directly. The shielding makes the systems similar to their gas fired roasters.

Instead of thinking of this in terms of wavelength, it might be better to think of it in terms of maximum environmental temperature. The current wisdom is that roasts suffer if beans come into contact with heat sources higher than 520F. My personal experience is that roasts decline when it's higher than 470F. Radiant heat from a quartz or halogen element is equivalent to getting exposed to a source at around 1000F to 1500F. This may be good for a brief toasting at the roast's end (some large scale commercial roasters use a flash of IR to do this), but I think it probably hurts the roast during the first crack, when the beans are supposed to expand smoothly, and not crack up.

[pauljolly65]

Home roast for espresso? That's the toughest home roast of all.

I started roasting 7-8 years ago. The big (and I mean BIG) advantage is that, for drip coffee, my home roast tastes equal to or better than any custom-roasted coffee I have tried. (I should acknowledge that I've never tried anyone's roasted Gesha, and from what I read R. Miguel's two exorbitant treats--Nectar and Ambrosia--were most appropriately named. The Gesha I roasted at home was stunning, but that was for drip coffee, and I expect that it would have fallen short of what other roasters could produce--and absolutely paled in comparison to R Miguel's. I only had a pound to work with!)

I started roasting seriously for espresso 3-4 years ago. It is much more challenging, and the successful results were fewer and further between than those for drip coffee. I went through several roasters before finally settling on what I could afford that works consistently well: the RK drum. Then there's blending--a whole new arena of variability which one really doesn't need to enter into to successfully roast for drip coffee. (I should point out that SO espressos are an absolute gustatory delight, but have been harder for me to home roast successfully than blends are.) And, in any case, I think one should regularly purchase roasted espresso from reliable sources to keep the eye on the proverbial prize--if you can roast something that tastes as good as what you buy, you are doing VERY well. I keep trying beans from a few sources to see if my roasts are still on target...and, three-four years later, I'm happy that they are.

So what have I learned?
--It takes a long time to learn to roast for espresso.
--It's way more fun than buying roasted coffee.
--The variety available to the home roaster at reasonable prices cannot be beat.
--When it's good, it's great.
--There are--especially early on--lots of batches that aren't that good.
--If you aren't totally fascinated by the roasting process, so much so that you're willing to devote countless hours to it only to wish that you could devote more, then you probably shouldn't start by trying to roast espresso. Start with drip and, if your successes there get you hooked, then go for it.

Sorry if that sounds daunting, but bear in mind that it is only my experience. The good part is that I now prefer what I roast to anything else I try. Many others in this forum are in the same boat. Good luck to you no matter what you decide to do.

Cheers,
Paul

[seacliff dweller]

There have been two commercial IR roasters in the 2 pound charge range, one using Halogen lamps (can't remember the name), and one using quartz elements, the Digiroaster by Imex, the same people who make the Rosto. Both were withdrawn around 2002, after being on the market a year or so, because of frequent bean fires and ongoing roast quality problems. Some small Diedrichs units have an electric heat option that uses quartz element heaters, but they are shielded and don't radiate the beans directly. The shielding makes the systems similar to their gas fired roasters.

Instead of thinking of this in terms of wavelength, it might be better to think of it in terms of maximum environmental temperature. The current wisdom is that roasts suffer if beans come into contact with heat sources higher than 520F. My personal experience is that roasts decline when it's higher than 470F. Radiant heat from a quartz or halogen element is equivalent to getting exposed to a source at around 1000F to 1500F. This may be good for a brief toasting at the roast's end (some large scale commercial roasters use a flash of IR to do this), but I think it probably hurts the roast during the first crack, when the beans are supposed to expand smoothly, and not crack up.

i have added another probe to measure the air temp (environment temp) above the beans (approx 1cm higher) and the delta between bean to air is around 40 to 70 degrees f during the whole roasting process, which is in line to your 470 f max (delta gets smaller as you approach the final roast temp). my IR heating element can get from ambient to 1830 f in 1 sec but that is the temp at the heating element and NOT at the bean surface. i have even removed the protective cover over the heating element so i am getting maximum radiant heat but still have no undesirable side effect. I think we can think of it as the sun's heat to our body temp while standing outside. the sun's photosphere temp is around 11,000f but our body temp is nowhere near there. on a nano scale, the important point is the distance between the heating element and the bean surface, so that you don't scorch the beans for placing it too close or getting half baked beans for placing it to far away. in addition, my set up has convection fan which distributes the heat more evenly. in my humble opinion, the issue is NOT the IR heating element.
another point is that puffiness does not necessarily translates into better beans as discussed by tom at sweet marias - "With these slower roasts we do, and the way we "soften" (i.e. draw out) the 1st crack, seems to leave the coffee bean less expanded, less puffed up, more structurally intact, and (I think) leaves more C0-2 intact in the little cellulose chambers within the seed." the most important point is how the coffee tastes.
the fire and roast quality example sited could be due to chaffe accumulation, doing spanish roast and/or poor design. i have not used them and have no comment on it

[another_jim]

Faster roasts with higher environmental temperatures result in larger beans than slower lower temperature roasts. This has been in the literature since Sivetz's text in the 70s. This was exploited in the late 70s and 80s with commercial roasters that could finish roasts of container sized loads in 3 minutes, and create a fluffy grind that made 12 ounce cans look like a pound. The taste however was not even good enough for Folgers; and most container sized roasters now run in an 8 to 10 minute window.

If you use convection in your roaster, the contribution of radiant heat is likely to be minor. Home and BBQ drum roasters that do not have convection flirt with the danger of creating brittle bean surfaces. The Hottop doesn't have this problem, but the Behmor demo roasts I saw all had it.

[Marshall]

Should I home roast for espresso?
I am not sure if it makes sense for me to home roast.

When someone asks this question, the first place I look is his or her location. You live in NYC. So the answer is "no," unless you want to be a hardcore hobbyist, which does not seem to be the case.

You have local outlets for some of the greatest artisan roasters in the country. There is no need for you to ship it in yourself. Here is a current NYC report from CoffeeGeek: http://coffeegeek.com/opinions/pacnortheast/03-28-2008.

1 lb./week? That's me, too. Want to save a trip? Buy two lbs. and freeze one of them. I do it all the time. Espresso tastes great 4-10 days after roast, depending on the blend. There is no need to be fanatic about freshness.

Finally, take advice from home roasters with a grain of salt. Most (not all) either live far from great coffee or do not know a great roast from a middling roast. That's why you read nonsense like "the worst home roast is better than any store-bought roast." Jim Schulman knows what he is talking about. Take him seriously.

[shadowfax]

Marshall, as a non-hardcore home roaster in a coffee wasteland (Oklahoma), I couldn't agree with you more. If I lived near a pro roaster that was well-reputed and sold beans at a good price (not the $18-20+/lb I have to pay to get it shipped to me), I don't know that I would have started roasting.

I've also had a few meltdowns that, while I do feel like it would beat out just about anything from Wal Mart's coffee aisle on freshness, is pretty awful stuff--a Yemen that I tried on P2 in the Behmor, my first time on P2, and it seriously stalled out after 1C. Baked nastiness.

EDIT: I meant to cast that Wal Mart comment as an interpretation of your caricature of home roasters ("the worst home roast is better than any store-bought roast"). While I may have missed someone actually saying that, I would assume that it's hyperbole--as in, talking about "Eight O'Clock Coffee" from Wal-Mart and the like--probably not any artisan roasted coffee.

[Marshall]

Marshall, as a non-hardcore home roaster in a coffee wasteland (Oklahoma)....

As I noted in another thread, those "wastelands" keep getting smaller and smaller. You can pick up Barefoot and Intelligentsia in OKC now (brewed on Synesso's no less, if you want them to make it). http://coffeegeek.com/forums/worldregional/uscentral/363170

[TimEggers]

I'll agree with Marshall and say again that Jim hits the nail right on the head. But as a home roaster I have to add that I find things about home roasting that I don't get from opening a shipping carton or bag of someone else's coffee. Mainly the fun and appreciation for the process and those who unlike me really really know how to roast coffee. I love to home roast and find the results tasty and worthwhile for me. I wouldn't encourage though that you or anyone limit themselves to specifically home roasts otherwise you will be missing out on a lot of truly special coffees out there too.

[werbin]

Marshall,
Thanks for the reply. I have experimented with freezing beans with mixed success. I am trying again. This time around I got a collection of bell jars and am immediately splitting pounds of beans into 5 jars. So far the results seem better than my earlier freezing experiences when I had put pound bags of beans into the freezer and then poured out 4 ounces or so directly into my Mazzer.

You have local outlets for some of the greatest artisan roasters in the country. There is no need for you to ship it in yourself. Here is a current NYC report from CoffeeGeek: http://coffeegeek.com/opinions/pacnortheast/03-28-2008.

Yes, I live in Manhattan. No, I don't really have easy access to high quality local artisan roasters as far as I know.

I did read the CoffeeGeek article when it appeared and I have gone to several of the places mentioned.
They are all espresso bars. Most of them do not roast beans in New York City. Some of them are wonderful and some of them sell the beans they use. Also, I live on the upper West Side and most of the places mentioned are in the Village or Lower East Side. I don't get there that often.

Gimme Coffee is a roaster in addition to being an espresso bar but they roast their beans in upstate New York. Ithaca. That is like having a roaster in San Francisco when you live in Los Angeles. Their espresso bar outlet in Manhattan is in the Village. I will try to get there sometime.

I have been to 9th Street Espresso several times at their Chelsea Market outlet. They serve really great espresso and cappuccinos. I think that their quality dropped when they switched to Counter Culture beans but that the quality jumped up again when they recently switched again to Stumptown beans. I did buy 2 pounds of Stumptown beans from them the last time I was there. But, their pricing on beans is expensive. Factoring in the city tax and the fact that 9th Street was selling Stumptown beans in 14 oz. bags for the same price as the Stumptown web site had for 16 oz., I might as well have ordered directly over the internet and paid the shipping prices. If 9th Street was closer to home, I would probably stop in once a week and buy a pound anyway.

I was to Joe — The Art of Coffee one time. I had a espresso that was seriously too bitter. Maybe that was a one time mistake. Their web site says that they sell their own beans at a reasonable price. I will try to get some. I will try again if I am near their store.

[shadowfax]

As I noted in another thread, those "wastelands" keep getting smaller and smaller. You can pick up Barefoot and Intelligentsia in OKC now (brewed on Synesso's no less, if you want them to make it). http://coffeegeek.com/forums/worldregional/uscentral/363170

I will have to check that out, Marshall. I have never had Intelligentsia's coffee. It's good to know that there is a good coffee shop in OKC, but I still feel like I'm in a wasteland. Driving to OKC from Norman (about 35-40 minutes in no traffic) is time-consuming and not much cheaper (if at all) than ordering coffee online. Still, a chance to try Intelligentsia and Barefoot is not something to pass up, and prepared on a Synesso, presumably owned by someone who cares enough to buy such an expensive kit--that will be a rare treat for me. I hope they make it and open a branch here in Norman--there are many thousands of college students here in need of a quality caffeine fix!

[Marshall]

Yes, I live in Manhattan. No, I don't really have easy access to high quality local artisan roasters as far as I know.
...
Gimme Coffee is a roaster in addition to being an espresso bar but they roast their beans in upstate New York. Ithaca. That is like having a roaster in San Francisco when you live in Los Angeles. Their espresso bar outlet in Manhattan is in the Village. I will try to get there sometime.

I'm pretty familiar with the distance from Ithaca to Port Authority Terminal, a trip I took more times than I care to remember in the 70's. I now live in L.A. and often buy from a roaster in S.F. (actually Santa Rosa, which is north of S.F.). What's the big deal? I get it 2-4 days after roast, and it's wonderful for the week it takes me to consume it.

Oh, and do not pour frozen beans from a container into a room temperature hopper. Water will condense both on the beans in the hopper and the beans in the freezer, just like an ice tea glass on a summer day. Water soaking into roasted beans is a big no-no. Divide the beans into smaller batches before freezing, and then let each container come to room temperature before opening it.

[Marshall]

One last thought. People often post questions on these forums looking for support for purchase decisions they have really already made. Sometimes they want to justify it to themselves. Sometimes they want to justify it to their spouses ("Look, honey, all the guys said I need to have a Robur.").

Home roasting is a wonderful hobby. You will learn more than you could ever imagine about coffee. If you want to do it, go right ahead! I'm only trying to separate "I need" from "I want" in this thread.

Sorry for the cheap psychoanalysis. It's worth what I charge for it.

[jbeecham]

One really important thing about home roasting is that you will learn a lot. You will learn what you like and what you don't like. I would not get too wrapped up in all the different tools available for the home roaster. Eventually, you will produce excellent roasts using what ever tools you have and you will adapt your techniques to their limitations and foibles. For someone just starting out, I would keep it simple and make lots of notes in your logs for each variety of bean. Over time, it will all come together.

[pauljolly65]

Home roasting is a wonderful hobby. You will learn more than you could ever imagine about coffee. If you want to do it, go right ahead! I'm only trying to separate "I need" from "I want" in this thread.

It's good to read this, Marshall. You've heretofore been consistently entrenched in the homeroast-is-fool's-gold camp, and I was getting ready to comment on that position vis a vis your earlier note...but you've explained yourself here with considerable grace and good-natured enthusiasm.

Back to topic: I can't imagine that there's no stellar micro-roast in Manhattan. Even if it takes a half-hour to get there on the subway, that's still less time than one would spend roasting (let alone learning how to roast well). As much as I love my homeroast, I still find plenty to fascinate me in Blue Bottle's Hayes Valley, Ecco's Taste of the Harvest, or Taylor Maid's Espresso O. Just put in my first ever order for Black Cat, too. Really, I think that anyone who home roasts for espresso would want to try the consensus picks just to keep the tastebuds sharp.

Cheers,
Paul

[werbin]

Oh, and do not pour frozen beans from a container into a room temperature hopper. Water will condense both on the beans in the hopper and the beans in the freezer, just like an ice tea glass on a summer day. Water soaking into roasted beans is a big no-no. Divide the beans into smaller batches before freezing, and then let each container come to room temperature before opening it.

Actually, I remove the bell jars from the freezer and allow them to come to room temperature before I open them. That shoud avoid the water condensation problem.

[werbin]

One last thought. People often post questions on these forums looking for support for purchase decisions they have really already made. Sometimes they want to justify it to themselves. Sometimes they want to justify it to their spouses ("Look, honey, all the guys said I need to have a Robur.").

That is a good thought that is often true, but I had not made the decision when I posted the question.

I was trying to understand the trade-offs in the quest to get excellent espresso with fresh enough beans. I think that I understand now that home roasting is best thought of as a hobby that is almost an end in itself with a goal of understanding as much as possible about the beans and the process. I may at some point take up that hobby for the fun of it some time in the future. But, it seems clear that home roasting is not a cost savings or time savings way to be sure that you always have really fresh beans. Especially since it sounds like home roasting espresso takes a lot of practice to achieve good results.