Selecting a lever based on the character they impart?

[Nickk1066]

In the past I asked about the Pavoni, but due to moving house it's been put on hold, and now two months later I'm thinking perhaps that was a wise decision. Perhaps I was being a bit too arrogant and approaching from the wrong angle.

Just to close a few questions up front - my throughput is 1-3 shots a day with latte, cappuccino or straight. If friends are around that may be 5 a day. I don't mind the fuss of a lever as long as what comes out is worth it (and view it as a journey to be travelled).

In true Socratic style (The only true knowledge is knowing you know nothing) I decided to approach this from the very roots - the coffee itself and knowing what style I like. Then fit the equipment in place to make the best out if it.

In researching I've covered the coffee itself, roasting, grinding (like the electron scanning microscope article!), brewing and the reasons why things are done.

I like a mellow, golden coffee that's slightly sweet but nutty (I know from looking into roasting that these are opposites on the scale due to how they arise). Out of all the coffee I've tried it tends to be that style that I think - mmmm nice. What I'm looking at is getting the best out of medium (perhaps blended to give it a backbone later) roasts rather than the darker roasts.

My taste in wine seems to be very much in the favour of wines that have complexity, changing characters without acidity. Reds from St.Emilion (still awaiting my parents to open the Cheval Blanc ), Pomerol, Riojas; whites from Chablis (which are slightly creamy/buttery), Sancerre and I'll confess a weakness for Bollinger 1996 RD - which is different from the standard bombastic house curvee but I digress into another passion..

I've read that the Pavoni, when smiled on by the caffeine gods, produces a thick creamy but not necessarily the most clear taste. Whereas the Elektra Microcasa is not as thick in the creamy texture but this opens the shot up and allows you to taste the detail and complexity.

This makes me think (and feel) that the Elektra would suit my taste in coffee better.

Before people jump to the point about grinders - I now fully understand these prima-donnas will simply sulk if not fed the appropriate uniformly grind and tamped correctly. I've been reading why this is and I believe that's a different thread!

So... I don't think I'm too nuts to attempt to tailor the selection of machine to my taste..

My question is really simple - can the machines be characterised in this way?

[orphanespresso]

To answer your question, or rather give an opinion, yes.
Much of the tailoring that you seek is of course found in the temperature at extraction which will treat your favoured bean, single origin or blend, to the proper conditions to bring out whatever characters you wish.

I note you are in the UK, and of course knowledgeable about wine and other fine things in life. Being from the States, I have in common with many of my fellow Americans the love of the automobile, and like espresso machines, one cannot have too many. We use the Benz diesel for daily transport, the rusty old truck for heavy hauling, the 49 Plymouth ragtop for pleasure cruising, the 69 Camaro as a babe mobile, and the beat up hearse just for kicks, and of course the Jeep in the winter. But that is another subject altogether.

[timo888]

I've used several different levers (Cremina, Peppina, Caravel, Ponte Vecchio Lusso) though others on the forum have used even more of them. But those four represent a good cross-section of the possibilities: spring, manual, pressure, gravity.

Your stated goal, to allow the flavor profile of the roasts you most enjoy to emerge, can be achieved best by machines that give you direct or indirect control over brew temperature [as Doug @ orphan said above]. The levers that give you most control over brew temp are the Caravel and the Peppina, as both let you stick a thermometer in the unpressurized kettle. But the Caravel does not steam milk and the Peppina doesn't steam it well or conveniently. Both are vintage. A domestic lever machine, currently in production, that gives you control over brew temp is the Gaggia Achille. You manage brew temp with the Achille by flushing water through the group. However, I would encourage you to ask Achille users just how cool they can get the water, since the temperature spectrum for producing espresso is quite wide, and the Achille appears to run hot.

The ability to produce espresso along the entire temperature range is not a metric in any review I have read. [It might crop up in reviews of dual-boilers.] I don't recall reading any review of the Achille where the reviewer had lowered the p-stat drastically (rebound-time metric is irrelevant in a domestic scenario but has mindshare nonetheless), and the reviewers on this forum, though not intentionally biased, were trying to reproduce the results they achieve with their prosumer boxes. The reviewers were also professed ristretto-hounds. Not much on lungo. I mention all of this because, if you like very subtle flavors to emerge, a lungo on the cool side with a single-origin roast is something to try. I have had some excellent espresso pulled at relatively cool temperatures. That said, I've had some delicious nutty roasts on the Cremina at high temps, using roasts from Barefoot, whose Redwood blend (not produced these days) is the lightest roast I've ever had.

Another caveat: There have been quality control issues (search for leak AND Achille) but if you have a local vendor, and won't have to be boxing the machine up and sending it back for repair, you might move the Achille to the top of your list, the possibility of QC issues notwithstanding.

Regards
T

[Nickk1066]

Thanks guys.

Another caveat: There have been quality control issues (search for leak AND Achille) but if you have a local vendor, and won't have to be boxing the machine up and sending it back for repair, you might move the Achille to the top of your list, the possibility of QC issues notwithstanding.

I did look at the Achille. However with the subsequent reports of cracks, leaks and overheating (this could be more todo with learning to cope with the machine characteristics) it was quickly removed from the list without considering it's finer merits.
If they'd released an update to the model with fixes to those issues it sounds like it could be a serious contender. The nearest places would be London, close by US standards but it would probably be a return to fix via DHL.. each time.

The shots flow like thick warm honey and pull nearly 100% crema. I get a rather unique cup character that marries of the best of both lever and pump worlds. You'll recognize the characteristic thick buttery mouthfeel that attracts so many of us to levers. In addition, it produces the heavy crema-laden shots you normally associate with pump machines. There is also ample clarity in the cup very reminiscent of the pump machines, though I found a good pump HX or double boiler machine could edge out the Achille on this front
...
During the research for this article, I had the opportunity to visit one of our HB members, KarlSchneider (Chuck). He owns both an Elektra Microcasa a Leva and Olympia Cremina. The Microcasa pulls a very different kind of shot. The body is lighter and the crema thinner than either the Cremina or Achille in both quantity and color. The cup is lighter in taste, almost more coffee-like than espresso—a mellow and flavorful cup. The Cremina pulls a much more robust cup than the Microcasa. Its espressos are darker and have thicker crema with more volume. The body was deeper and the flavor much richer than the Microcasa. After an hour and four shots it hit its limit and started overheating. The Achille produces an espresso that was very comparable to the Cremina. Espressos from the Achille have the same velvety and dense crema but with slightly more volume. I also noticed a cleaner and slightly more defined flavor profile in the cup. The impressive espresso performance combined with the Achille's ability to pull shot after shot for hours without overheating represents a major advance in home lever machine design.

Hmm..

[peacecup]

I suppose the beans, roast, and brew ratio, and temperature will say more to the cup than does the difference between a manual vs. spring lever, or the different models within each group. That said, some coffee cuppers better than I seem to be able to differentiate between their levers. To date, however, I have not seen any blind taste tests where someone actually proved they could tell the difference.

One thing I've noticed lately is that with a manual lever it is nigh impossible to keep brew pressure consistent from shot to shot. Its just a fact of human nature - if the resistance from the puck (grind, dose, tamp) is greater, the human arm will push harder. A spring lever removes this variable, and makes it possible for the barista vary the things s/he can - grind, dose, and tamp, and to see (and taste) the effects in the cup. BUT, most home spring levers do operate at a lower brew pressure than one can impart with a hard pull on a manual.

For what its worth, I love both my manual Carvel and my spring lever Ponte Vecchio. Which brings up final point - both of these have small group sizes (45-mm or less), and relatively small water displacements. If you don't mind pulling two 30 ml shots instead of one 60 these are great (and, in fact, what I believe to be the essence of espresso). But, if you're looking for larger shot volumes a larger group may be better.

PC

PC

[peacecup]

PS. all that business about finicky machines needing perfect grinders is overrated.

[Nickk1066]

One thing I've noticed lately is that with a manual lever it is nigh impossible to keep brew pressure consistent from shot to shot. Its just a fact of human nature - if the resistance from the puck (grind, dose, tamp) is greater, the human arm will push harder. A spring lever removes this variable,

I've seen alot of reports of levers that have been exhibiting issues with leaks at the base - I wonder if anyone has put the fact that people are putting large volumes into the basket and pushing harder than designer originally thought? After all the group head is connected to the boiler without any form of support and any force will be transmitted directly to the base.

I can see the benefit (and limitation) of a spring - my understanding of this is in short it provides a consistent force applied, it's then up to the preparation of the puck to create the resistance to reduce the flow rate to a point where it will extract all the goodness with the volume of water in the head. The pressure will vary over the shot just because of the puck change resistance for a variety of reasons (expansion of grinds, channeling, etc - I'm still waiting on HB's "Brewing coffee fluid flow using a supercomputer.." article!).
The down side is that you have only that constant force.

My understanding of the pure manual lever is that the lever applies the force depending on the barista. Hence, as stated, the force isn't likely to be constant but at the same time if good enough the barista can learn todo this and even change the force depending on the resistance of the puck being fedback through the lever.

So if I understand it (so correct me if I'm wrong)..
a) in an ideal world - a constant flow rate through identical pucks should give the same profile (over the time of the shot) of chemicals and compounds extracted from the coffee. That profile means that over time the amount of extraction drops to the point where we could be 'over extracting' resulting in bitter taste if we go on too long.
Temperature plays the part of how it unlocks the chemicals and compounds as the flow passes.
In the real world the profile is varies on bean, roast, day of the week and if it's a monday morning..
(ignoring surface area etc)

b) for a bigger drink more water volume is required and the natural thing is to increase the amount of coffee in a sort of linear ratio between volume of water and grind. The resulting larger puck offers more resistance thus requiring higher force to maintain the same flow rate. Also to prevent the grinds from overheating the rate is increased further by more pressure.
Hmm I can see why you say run two singles - if you can get similar shots - then their profile would be 'similar'. Less chance of overheating the same puck itself and less force required..

c) I can see the reasoning that with a lower force of a spring, that the flow rate will be much more sensitive to the resistance thus the more deviation from the 'perfect' uniform grind will result in an uneven resistance to that flow rate. It gets complicated but this causes a very uneven extraction over the entire puck (if you think of the fluid flow through the puck in 3D). The way the puck will change over the time of the extraction will also become less predictable. (assuming the profile for extraction has anything todo with the profile of the water in terms of rate, temp, pressure going through it..)

I think I agree. I could analyse it to death, go mad with all the variables and miss the true joy - the coffee itself.

I do like the idea of having a 'reasonable' constant and working to get the best out of it. I don't drink large quantities - one in the morning, one in the afternoon.

Not to put a finer point on it I'll probably scare myself into selecting a spring machine! Seriously though I think for consistency - albeit with the lack of force leading to a 'lighter' extraction thus requiring more than normal attention to the puck preparation (even when not using demonically expensive grinder - Mazzer level for example).
Intensity (though a large puck shot) doesn't always result in the best shot in my opinion. That's like saying wine that's been deliberately "oaked" (ie forcing a taste of oak to emulate better wine that gets it naturally through good production but forgetting that it should just be part of the mix along with the grape complexity!). I'm about to step on people toes here, I know I will, but for me this really important. An open natural balance allows me to discover each time I take a taste. I may need to learn how to identify the tastes but that comes with experience..

Ok this is drawing parallels in the search of grind uniformity!

I see what you mean about the temperature aspect. It's amazing that there's so few products out there that allow domestic users to focus on this. I think that all machines are focused on satisfying the 'standard' espresso with it's requirements of temperature, pressure etc. Surely that standardisation is what's killing Starbucks?
Give me a garage producer that believes in what they're doing, that know what they're doing and produce based on their ideals and values.

Hmm.. ok that was a long wittering post (it's late). Something to think about...

I have in common with many of my fellow Americans the love of the automobile, and like espresso machines, one cannot have too many.

Here in the UK petrol today is $8.05 per US gallon, diesel at $9.23 a US gallon! I'm sticking with one car and working from home ($130 to fill up). What I save I'll put into the espresso I'll be consuming.
A mate had a '73 corvette imported..

[cannonfodder]

I have had the privilege of using a variety of lever espresso machines, Gaggia Factory, La Pavoni, Gaggia Achille, Ponte Vecchio Lusso single and two group, Microcasa a leva and the tried and true Cremina. I like them all, all for different reasons. I also dislike them all and all for different reasons. I have yet to find a single 'perfect' machine be it lever or pump driven.

Having said that, if I had to limit myself to two lever machines, it would be Elektra Microcasa a Leva and the Cremina. The Elektra for its elegant countertop appeal and wonderfully clear and vibrant shots and the Cremina for its heavy crema laden deeper noted cups and tank like build. You can pull a shot from both of these machines, using the same blend, and get two very different cups. Having a more than adequate pump machine, I find myself occasionally thinking about selling off some my 'spare' gear to get the Microcasa. To date it is my favorite.

[orphanespresso]

Good idea - using those savings for more espresso!

We only drive one at a time...and these days it's usually the Benz wagon, running on biodiesel made from used cooking oil. Runs us about $1.25 per US gallon. Maybe THAT's why we have so many espresso machines?!?

[timo888]

Spring levers (domestic) produce about 6 bars of brew pressure. You can produce a spring-lever-like extraction on a manual lever by using less force on the lever.

Regards
T

[TUS172]

I've seen alot of reports of levers that have been exhibiting issues with leaks at the base - I wonder if anyone has put the fact that people are putting large volumes into the basket and pushing harder than designer originally thought? After all the group head is connected to the boiler without any form of support and any force will be transmitted directly to the base.

Not the case the pressure is created in the grouphead not the boiler.

I can see the benefit (and limitation) of a spring - my understanding of this is in short it provides a consistent force applied, it's then up to the preparation of the puck to create the resistance to reduce the flow rate to a point where it will extract all the goodness with the volume of water in the head. The pressure will vary over the shot just because of the puck change resistance for a variety of reasons (expansion of grinds, channeling, etc - I'm still waiting on HB's "Brewing coffee fluid flow using a supercomputer.." article!).
The down side is that you have only that constant force.

As is the same with a semi-auto machine... consistent pressure... the puck is going to expand... and it will channel if you do not tamp a good grind properly.

My understanding of the pure manual lever is that the lever applies the force depending on the barista. Hence, as stated, the force isn't likely to be constant but at the same time if good enough the barista can learn todo this and even change the force depending on the resistance of the puck being fedback through the lever.

Yep... Also how long is the Home Barista leaving the lever at the top position to allow direct hot water from the boiler to infuse the puck? Also the direct channel boilers (elderly Creminas and Pavonis) do heat the grouphead rather quickly... how is the HB preparing and pulling the shots? (Is the HB fully heating the boiler 1st, before tamping the baskets)... If so then the grouphead will be hot! If so does the HB cool the grouphead before beginning and between shots? That will have an effect on shots.

So if I understand it (so correct me if I'm wrong)..
a) in an ideal world - a constant flow rate through identical pucks should give the same profile (over the time of the shot) of chemicals and compounds extracted from the coffee. That profile means that over time the amount of extraction drops to the point where we could be 'over extracting' resulting in bitter taste if we go on too long.
Temperature plays the part of how it unlocks the chemicals and compounds as the flow passes.
In the real world the profile is varies on bean, roast, day of the week and if it's a monday morning..
(ignoring surface area etc)

Yep... and ??? If I recall your original posts were that you owned or own a semi-auto? If so you already know all of this and also realize that knowing the tamp of a basket, profile and grind of a roast, temperature of the water throughout the pull and the total time of the pull have so many variables in it that even a person with a semi-auto machine will have good pulls and "not-so-good" sink shots... The lever is just adding a couple of more variables that you can learn about and play with.

b) for a bigger drink more water volume is required and the natural thing is to increase the amount of coffee in a sort of linear ratio between volume of water and grind. The resulting larger puck offers more resistance thus requiring higher force to maintain the same flow rate. Also to prevent the grinds from overheating the rate is increased further by more pressure.
Hmm I can see why you say run two singles - if you can get similar shots - then their profile would be 'similar'. Less chance of overheating the same puck itself and less force required..

The same is true for a semi-auto because it takes the pump longer to get the same volume of water out of the machine when using more grind tamped at a similar pressure. Thus just because you are using more grind does not mean you have to increase the pressure on the lever for a pull, the point is not to get the same volume faster...

c) I can see the reasoning that with a lower force of a spring, that the flow rate will be much more sensitive to the resistance thus the more deviation from the 'perfect' uniform grind will result in an uneven resistance to that flow rate. It gets complicated but this causes a very uneven extraction over the entire puck (if you think of the fluid flow through the puck in 3D). The way the puck will change over the time of the extraction will also become less predictable. (assuming the profile for extraction has anything todo with the profile of the water in terms of rate, temp, pressure going through it..)

A part of owning a lever for me is not knowing that I can pull two espressos and have the exact results each time... It does not happen every time (As is true for any semi-auto machine) There are going to be minute differences. In my opinion the lever is a different experience. It is simple, reliable, quite, free of motors and/or pumps and require a bit of finesse. That is the reason for my preference. The limitations are obvious for small home units... You have already noted the number of drinks you may be able to prepare during one session.

I think I agree. I could analyse it to death, go mad with all the variables and miss the true joy - the coffee itself.

Yep...

I do like the idea of having a 'reasonable' constant and working to get the best out of it. I don't drink large quantities - one in the morning, one in the afternoon.

And???

Not to put a finer point on it I'll probably scare myself into selecting a spring machine! Seriously though I think for consistency - albeit with the lack of force leading to a 'lighter' extraction thus requiring more than normal attention to the puck preparation (even when not using demonically expensive grinder - Mazzer level for example).
Intensity (though a large puck shot) doesn't always result in the best shot in my opinion. That's like saying wine that's been deliberately "oaked" (ie forcing a taste of oak to emulate better wine that gets it naturally through good production but forgetting that it should just be part of the mix along with the grape complexity!). I'm about to step on people toes here, I know I will, but for me this really important. An open natural balance allows me to discover each time I take a taste. I may need to learn how to identify the tastes but that comes with experience..

What??? If you get a spring, lever or semi-auto the same issues are there. Refer to "over analytical" in your above statement...

Ok this is drawing parallels in the search of grind uniformity!

So stay with the semi-auto and quit fretting over uniformity and consistency. If you like playing with variables and knowing that time and patience will give you acceptable results... Make the jump and go lever... if not get a semi-auto and be happy with making a wise decision for yourself.

I see what you mean about the temperature aspect. It's amazing that there's so few products out there that allow domestic users to focus on this. I think that all machines are focused on satisfying the 'standard' espresso with it's requirements of temperature, pressure etc. Surely that standardisation is what's killing Starbucks?
Give me a garage producer that believes in what they're doing, that know what they're doing and produce based on their ideals and values.

What? I don't think it is inappropriate for companies that produce espresso machines to aim for/at a standard that produces a quality espresso. You can PID any machine and get you the variables you are talking about in seconds. The last semi-auto I owned was a PID Rancilio Silvia... I could dial up any temp espresso I wanted. I played with triple espresso baskets, weights of pucks, roasts and grind... lots of fun...So there is a possible answer for you... It however will be a cold day in hell before I PID one of my Creminas. The 1st lever I owned helped me to realize that what I was in fact infatuated with was being hands on, fascinated with the intricacies that is required to produce a decent espresso by lever and the quiet, simple operation of manual operation.

Hmm.. ok that was a long wittering post (it's late). Something to think about...

Or even forget about... Now is the for Time for action no more analysis... Please...

[Nickk1066]

Or even forget about... Now is the for Time for action no more analysis... Please...

[timo888]

I've seen alot of reports of levers that have been exhibiting issues with leaks at the base - I wonder if anyone has put the fact that people are putting large volumes into the basket and pushing harder than designer originally thought? After all the group head is connected to the boiler without any form of support and any force will be transmitted directly to the base.

Yes, I've attempted to draw attention to the use of excessive force.
The rate at which HB leverites consume o-rings

Regards
T

P.S. Not only are the baristas OD'ing, they're tamping much too hard as well.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I thought I came here for an argument.
I'm sorry, this is Abuse.

[orphanespresso]

Timo, I've gotta say its good to see you again. You were the original La Peppina guy and really opened up the world of home levers to a lot of us. We followed your HB posts on the La Peppina as you struggled to get the right valve washers and shed light on a completely unknown and wonderful corner of the espresso world. I agree with you completely on this post, and Peacecup as well, and the OP, on the amount of analysis leading to paralysis.

We have a Conti Comocafe which has produced the most delightful cups of late, largely due to overdosing and just letting the machine do what it does best, single pull shots. It is very similar to La Peppina in function, but with a 49mm basket. This actually may be due to the daily constant use of the machine, not skipping around to others, until the preparation of the filter basket, the grind, and tamp become second nature and the delight just flows. The same can be said of the Caravel. We have yet to use an Achille, as we are a bit worried about the build quality, the use of plastic components (on a 1000 dollar machine????) and the YouTube shots of the machine with the flexing of the frame are a bit frightening. We find the Olympia Cremina a demanding mistress, but worth the effort on that one perfect shot.

We have 15 different home lever machines and if asked, I would recommend a Caravel for pure espresso bliss. I would then recommend a La Peppina or Comocafe for a strong spring VERY repeatable pull. I would recommend an Olympia Cremina to someone who has the time and patience to devote themselves to finding and sorting out all the variables leading to a top espresso shot. The La Pavoni is a very good machine for both espresso and steam. The Brunella is similar in espresso production to the Caravel and very well made, though a bit rare.

All of the machines are different and that is what makes them so interesting
Doug

[ntwkgestapo]

Nick, I've got a Gaggia Factory and while I'll state up front that it's not the machine for everyone, I REALLY, REALLY DO love the 'spresso I get from it.

Being an engineer by training you'd think I'd be going for a tightly regulated system, like a La Spaz or a GS3 or some such (and I DO have a "back burner" project to see if I can design and make an espresso shot "laboratory", but it's sloooow going what with all the other "stuff" I have to do. I do have some "proof of concept" hardware and software up and running, but nothing that actually would MAKE an espresso, just computer with appropriate instrumentation "faking" the espresso making process).

I got the Factory back when WLL had them on "fire sale". When I started learning the machine I tried to do all the "control this variable. Oh, and that one too. Darn, yet another I've got to control....". What I've found out is 1) get a decent machine 2) get a good grinder (I've got a Le'Lit Pl53 that works just fine for me!) and 3) get some decent beans (I've got a local roaster who does some OK roasts and I use Counter Culture Coffee as well) then just work it! Try to get your process consistent then work on improving it.

I let the machine warm up for 10-20 minutes (depending on the roast I'm using @ the time. CCC Toscano wants to be a bit cool, so I do a 10-12 minute warm up for it. Other roasts need the group a tad warmer). In the morning I make a LARGE Americano (I don't have the time to head back home from work to make a replacement and the stuff available here @ work is "less than optimal" at best!) in a SS insulated tumbler and sip on it all morning long. In the evening I often make a double espresso after dinner and a Cappa late in the evening (usually around 9:30-10:00pm). I know that's a "no-no" but I find that I sleep better after a late nite cappa!.

Light tamp of about 12g of fresh coffee (around 20lbs usually), lock-n-load, about a 10 second "fill up the brew group" then no more than 35-45lb pull on the lever with a fellini (sp?) in the middle. Makes a GREAT double with loads of dark, rich crema ( I really need to get some shots of the results as I'm constantly impressed with what comes out of the tin-man! but it tastes sooo good! ). Can't say about the other levers that have been mentioned in this thread (alto, I have been thinking of getting a Cremina....)

I guess what I'm trying to say is, DON'T over analyze. ANY of the machines mentioned in this (and other threads) will make some great espresso. Different but great anyway. You just have to learn the machine (and I did it with what really matters. Taste the results! When you like what you're getting, try to refine it. Change something every now and then just to see what comes out! You MAY like that experiment better than the last, you may not!).

Anyway, my 2 pence on the subject!

[hbuchtel]

Yes, I've attempted to draw attention to the use of excessive force.

Timo, I don't think that the amount of force discussed here could be considered excessive. It seems that every part of the Achille except for the base was designed to accept that amount of force.

Your comment comes across 'high pressure=bad,' but I know you are just trying to encourage people to try the lower end of the spectrum.

Regards, Henry

ps the o-rings I recently replaced are not the ones that you sent me a couple years ago

[r-gordon-7]

I echo everything that Stephen/ntwkgestapo said! Like him, I too got my first Gaggia Factory during the WLL "fire sale". I was so pleased with mine that my second machine (for a second location - I still have, use and treasure the first machine) was also a Gaggia Factory (this time, a WLL Gaggia Factory refurb - replacing a WLL Gaggia Achille refurb, which I returned after experiencing, first-hand, all the things about which Doug/orphanespresso listed as worries with that machine...). There is a difference in the pressurestat settings on my two Gaggia Factory machines... The first one cycles off at approx 1 and back on again at approx .85. The second one (the refurb) cycles off at approx .75 and back on again at approx .5. I could open up the machine and readjust the pressurestat, but haven't really found the need to tamper with the machine's innards to be all that compelling. I'm finding these differences seem to make little if any perceptible difference in the pull, though they do require a bit of adjustment in technique when steaming milk - but with the slight adjustment in technique, both machines produce good results in steaming as well...

What I have found is that with a lever machine - especially a springless lever machine (well - at least with my springless lever machine(s) ) - there are so many variables with which to play ("meant as a good thing!"), that from any one machine an extremely broad range of produceable results is possible. It is the operator's skill in controlling all these variables that enables the desired selection and/or consistency in and among the broad range of the machine's produceable results... Though as a relative newbie, I'm still learning how to manipulate and control these variables on my machine(s) - the results, and their variances, are generally quite well within target range for my taste and the tastes of those for whom I'm pulling...

r-gordon-7

[HB]

We have yet to use an Achille, as we are a bit worried about the build quality, the use of plastic components (on a 1000 dollar machine????) and the YouTube shots of the machine with the flexing of the frame are a bit frightening.

Someone must have gotten the message, since it's now on sale for $799 and includes a two-year warranty.

Keep in mind that for the videos, I didn't support the portafilter as I normally would so I wouldn't block the camera (it was just inches away from the portafilter). One owner proposed a "stand" that he places under the locked in portafilter, which eliminates flexing. That said, I agree the flexing is disquieting, as are the reports of leaks. I hope Gaggia addresses these issues, the stock "newbie" steam wand, and makes the sale price permanent.

[Nickk1066]

HB, that exact video put me off the Achille!

You can see that the grouphead and the boiler area are very solid but the boiler to base

It's aluminium too, so unlike steel it's going to be less forgiving and will snap rather than slowly (I had that experience with my alu mountain bike seat post!).

[HB]

Correction, the only part that is aluminum is the dispersion screen block. The grouphead is brass. The fluted sides are cosmetic / safety and serve no structural purpose. The base is press-shaped stainless steel. I think the heavy grouphead, short lever handle, and the base's figure 8 shape with rounded corners contribute to the flexing. Inside the base is a thick steel support that connects to the bottom of the boiler base and bottom of the base under the driptray area. Perhaps this support could be beefed up?