"Scooped On" Dating?!?!? Oh, wait -- of course -- it's Starbucks! - Page 2

[zin1953]

Nah . . it's the consumers who have the most at stake -- you said so yourself. And aren't you a consumer? Even if you don't go to *$, don't you think that letters from average consumers carry more weight with *$ than organizational decrees or governmental regulations?

Look at it this way: if the government, or an organization like SCAA, proposes a regulation to fix a perceived "ill," *$ will bitch, complain that it isn't needed, and lobby to change, amend, or weaken it. If the same "ill" is expressed in letters to *$ by consumers, *$ will change in a heartbeat!

[roblumba]

Yeah, I forgot that as much as I try to avoid Starbucks, technically, I'm still a customer in their books. And they want to please them customers. But I wonder if they'll listen to a single customer when their books are saying that the masses are responding by handing them more money.

BTW, the organizations that have been fighting for consumer protections are doing excellent work to be the voice of a multitude of consumers. If one customer has a voice, then an organization that voices a large group of customers is even better. Sometimes even a single customer just gets screwed. There's a cool local segment called "7 on your side" where they find cases where local consumers get screwed for whatever reason and the company just doesn't respond. The pressure of having an entire viewing public aware of their ill behavior causes most companies to make things right. So I'd have to say that there are plenty of good reasons to have these organizations that aid the consumer. But somehow it seems like Starbucks is not very friendly to the independent coffee community since they are considered to be the competition.

It would be interesting to see how they respond to you. It certainly would be nice to see them make things right.

[zin1953]

But I wonder if they'll listen to a single customer when their books are saying that the masses are responding by handing them more money.

But of course it isn't a single customer, Robert -- it's you, me, and everyone else who bothers to write. Keep in mind that -- even though Starbucks continues turns a tidy profit -- it was below expectations, and they went in to "retrench," with the famous 3-hour Tour (on how to properly steam milk), and the new machines (yeah, still superautos, but --), and . . . .

[roblumba]

But of course it isn't a single customer, Robert -- it's you, me, and everyone else who bothers to write. Keep in mind that -- even though Starbucks continues turns a tidy profit -- it was below expectations, and they went in to "retrench," with the famous 3-hour Tour (on how to properly steam milk), and the new machines (yeah, still superautos, but --), and . . . .

Did you get any response on your letter? Who did you send it to? Perhaps you can post the email or link here and anyone who wants to write can write.

[zin1953]

I sent a letter to their corporate address last week:

Starbucks Customer Relations
PO Box 3717
Seattle, WA 98124-3717

That said, I also sent an online comment via their website this morning: http://www.starbucks.com/customer/

[SL]

You're right, coffee isn't treated as a perishable food. Boutique grocery stores in our area mark "best by" dates of 60 days for Counter Culture's products. While not ideal, I think that's a reasonable compromise between roaster and grocery store (especially given the larger stores turn over product quickly).

60 days is pretty good for a grocery store. A couple weeks ago I've seen 2 lbs bean bags in "Cost Plus world market" with "best by" date in April 2009 - that's one year from now. I can only wonder when those beans were roasted...

It is so nice to have a good local roaster. We've been in San Francisco today and visited Blue Bottle cafe. It was a joy to watch barista working and the lattes he made were delicious. I like that they sell their blends packed in half pound bags, bought Roman Espresso and Retrofit with roasted date May 16 (yesterday) printed on them.

[ntwkgestapo]

Just an FYI.... I wandered into a $Bux Saturday. It's south of Richmond, VA in one of the malls off of US 360 in Chesterfield county. Did NOT find any "Scooped on..." half pound and 1 pound bags of Pikes Place, BUT.... DID find 5 lb Mylar bags (sitting in one of their wicker baskets on the retail floor) of Pikes Place, Roasted on 1 May in York, PA! NEVER did see any small bags! Didn't buy anything there... Was heading in to see the Mother-in-Law and the line was toooo long..... BUT, later in the day (as we were getting ready to leave) I did go into a DIFFERENT $Bux where there were no 5lb mylar bags, but the to be expected 1lb and half-lb bags with the "scooped on.." stuff... blackboard said was roasted on 2 May (again @ York, PA)...
Just FYI...

[bernie]

On the other hand . . . you (and Dan) are, IMHO, absolutely correct: coffee labeling standards are virtually non-existent, and should be tightened up! Roasted coffee beans -- whether whole bean or ground -- perishable and should be treated as such.

I've tried for years and years to have that discussion with the SCAA. We have a tech standards committee that can come up with all sorts of standards but the one that is most important of all seems to be of little interest. Especially to the wholesale roasters who don't see any hypocrisy at all in touting freshness but will fight tooth and nail to prevent a standard that would limit the shelf life of their coffee. We pull any coffee off our display after 10 days post roast. "We can't control the coffee displayed by our accounts". "What is fresh" "Its all so subjective." "Put a roast date and let the consumer decide." What I fear will happen is that this sort of head-in-the-sand thinking will continue until some small roasters who can uphold a freshness standard will come up with an alternative organization that can and will set things like freshness standards and will rightfully use that as a marketing advantage against stale coffee from so-called artisan roasters. One of the specious arguments is that we can't do it because we can't "enforce" the standard. That one makes me nuts. It isn't a rule. It's a standard. Posting a sign in a store such as "The Real Coffee Association standard of freshness is 10-days post roast. Check the date on our bags" would be simple and effective as far as I can tell. Of course there will be cheaters. But setting a standard, educating the consumers and sticking to the standard will go a long way to raising the bar. Not doing anything about one, if not the, critical element of specialty coffee seems to be heading down the slippery slope. Rant off.
Bernie

[zin1953]

In the spirit of full disclosure, I should tell you I've received an email response from *$. Sadly, it's a generalized, standard, and even "canned" reply that doesn't address any specific issues raised by "scooped on" dating. It's also what I would have expected from a large corporate entity and the "worker bee" who hits the "Reply" button.

That said, I do think a large influx of critiques of "scooped on" dating by individuals would get a serious reply AND would affect the corporate take on things. But that won't happen with a single "drop or two" in the proverbial bucket of mail (e- or snail-); it will happen when that drop turns into a steady stream, a river, or a flood . . .

[barry]

Roasted coffee beans -- whether whole bean or ground -- are perishable and should be treated as such.

No, they're not.

[roblumba]

No, they're not.

You must have some amazing gravity defying coffee beans. They don't deteriorate? Technically, coffee does deteriorate and becomes unmarketable after a period of time (perishable). It may not require refrigeration immediately, but it certainly does deteriorate fast enough to be considered perishable.

[barry]

They're not perishable in the sense that other food products are perishable. Certainly the flavor is perishable (very much so), but the beans themselves are not. One can consume coffee brewed from 10 year old beans without any adverse health effects (although the cup might certainly taste like ass). So, from a food safety perspective, which is what the labeling laws are all about, coffee beans are not perishable.

[zin1953]

So, from a food safety perspective, which is what the labeling laws are all about, coffee beans are not perishable.

You're right, Barry, but I have never said drinking coffee from 10-year old beans is hazardous to your health, nor have I said that's any sort of health issue, an issue to take up with the FDA, the USDA, or even the TTTB (which regulates wine labels, and I have a long history of arguing labeling regs with the TTTB's predecessor, the ATF).

No one (that I know) of is suggesting "Best By" dating, even though Illy uses it, nor is anyone suggesting that the coffees be "pulled" like dairy products if they are past date. The suggestion is for "Roasted On" dating -- a little information can help the buyer beware a little easier . . .