Sad State of Commercial Espresso

[GreatDane]

(split from the GS3 article feedback thread)

Chris,

Thanks for the great review. I wish I had taken a trip to Portland for a shot or two. In your review, you wrote about how fussy you are on your espresso. That is great! However, most of us home-baristas are more fussy than pros. I have to take my shoes off and my wife's shoes off to count the number of good home-baristas that have served me an awesome shot. I can count on one hand the number of pro baristas that have served me great shots and two of those fingers are taken up by my two visits to Stumptown. One of the best shots I have ever had came from a Krups machine that a home-barista had dialed in! It was a 3/4 oz shot of pure delight! From reading this review, you ought to be amazed that any of us can get a good shot. The irony is those who have the 5 figure machines can only make swill! The real shame I find is the last two espresso shops I visited had the true automatic machine, the self grind self dose, self shot, and should be self drunk type machines. It is nice to see LM taking the home barista seriously. We may be the only true baristas left with the move to putting in the super-auto machines and hiring people that could care less about coffee. Most shops are looking for just making money. I talked to a gal who is a professional barista last week who takes her craft seriously. She said her new owner only cares about the bottom line!

Les

[malachi]

We may be the only true baristas left with the move to putting in the super-auto machines and hiring people that could care less about coffee.

Do be cautious when saying things like this, please.
There are a lot of serious, passionate pro baristas - for many of them statements like this are very hurtful.
Read this (perhaps one of the most profound posts of 2005) for some perspective on the issue.

[IMAWriter]

Do be cautious when saying things like this, please.
There are a lot of serious, passionate pro baristas - for many of them statements like this are very hurtful.
Read this (perhaps one of the most profound posts of 2005) for some perspective on the issue.

Yes...Chris, please do not take Great Danes' post as being representative of the typical "home barista's" general sentiments....
I'm hoping his comment was a sort of "back-handed" compliment to those baristi able to work with proper equipment, as opposed to fully auto grind/tamp/pour etc...

[GreatDane]

Chris,
The last thing I want to do is hurt or offend or be disparaging to the true barista. I count many of them as my friends (you included even though we have not met face to face yet). What is hurtful is the move out in espresso-land to settling for average. I spent about an hour last week listening to a Pro barista literally sobbing on the phone as she shared the lack of concern and passion for quality coffee that the new owner of her place of work has. I had heard many good things about Carabou coffee and Peets. However when given the chance to try both of these establishments, the only thing the baristas knew was which button to push. I went to a new coffee house here in Roseburg that was getting some good reviews. When I walked in they had all the equipment. I was told they had a week of solid training before opening. I asked for a ristretto and the barista said, "What is that?" He was a willing learner, so I had the chance to walk him through the steps and got a passable drink. I was in Albuquerque, NM last year and went to "the best coffee shop in town." They had a Probat roaster and the smell was heavenly when I walked in. They also served wonderful breakfast and lunch. I ordered breakfast and a double shot of their espresso blend. I couldn't believe what I saw! Again they had all the equipment. I talked to the owner and after breakfast (I had four hours before my first meeting), I did a 2 plus hour training for the owner and their barista on how to pull a shot. They had never tasted a nice thick rich crema laden espresso before. Basically the guy they bought their equipment from showed them where to plug it and and how the switches worked. I earned a free breakfast every morning for the next 3 days! The problem is the world out there that is willing to settle for Maxwell House and Foldgers is also willing to settle for lousy espresso. I am hoping the true barista will rise up and change the way it is! However, as long as the world of coffee is the way it is, I will pull almost all of my shots at home because it is the only place (except Alchemist John's and Mike McKoffee's or Stumptown) that I know I am going to get a good espresso. The real world seems to be willing to accept lousy coffee.

Les

[malachi]

Just because the (vast) majority of US coffee shops don't care about quality doesn't mean that there are no great, caring coffee businesses out there.

In addition to Stumptown, such a list would include:
- Intelligentsia (Chicago),
- Counter Culture (North Carolina),
- Terroir (Boston),
- Ritual (San Francisco),
- Elysian (Vancouver BC),
- Albina Press (Portland OR),
- DOMA (Couer D'Alene ID),
- Murky (Washington DC),
- Victrola (Seattle WA),
- Grumpy (NYC)
and the list would go on, and on... the above are more regional illustrations than anything else. At this point, in fact, I find that almost everywhere I travel has a decent coffee bar within easy reach. There are exceptions, but even here things are changing. A couple years ago, there was no good coffee in San Francisco. Now you have three options. Every day some new coffee bar opens up somewhere that is doing it right. And it's no longer confined to the urban markets. I've had great coffee in towns down to 3,500 people.

[GreatDane]

Chris,

That is a point well taken! I am glad there are places to get good espresso. However we both know that is the exception and not the rule! Wow, 3 places in San Francisco. There is one in Eugene, but I always forget the name. The point I am trying to make can be illustrated by my home town here in Roseburg, there are slightly over 100 places you can order an espresso. Out of those 100 places there is one where you can get an acceptable shot, not a good one, not even close to a great one. We have 4 Dutch Bros. doing a bang-up business. I have talked to their baristas and they could care less about the quality of their shots. One of them told me, "who cares I am just going to be putting flavors and sugar in 90% of them. So, if you cruise down to Roseburg and ask where can I get a good espresso. The common advice is going to send you to at least 5 places I know of that will serve you swill. You have a 1% chance of finding "My Coffee" on the first try. My big hope Chris to to see a loud voice from the Professional Barista as to what is happening. Has there been any discussion among the Professional Baristas to certify shops as to their commitment to quality? To me it is a sad commentary that a well trained person can pull a better shot on a Krups Gusto than a "pro" can pull on a La Marzocco Linea. The whole point of my post as it referred to your great review on the LM GS3 is that finally we are going to get a machine according to your review that will allow the home-barista many of the same features as the $10,000+ machines have.

Les

[miKe mcKoffee]

Knowing the Dane as I do I know his intent was sincerely not to belittle or degrade the few places that do care but more a commentary on the general sad state of reality. Agreed there are places great espresso can be found, unfortunately it seems the exception not the rule. Go to any town and go to 10 places at random for espresso, what are the chances of getting a great (or even passable) ristretto? For example two sources where listed for Portland, OR out of how many thousands or tens of thousands cafes and espresso stands! If espresso stands and cafes were carbon based the ratio of finding coal versus those rare diamonds is likely similar! The problem is easily and readily finding the diamonds.

I have nothing but the highest respect and admiration for the true professional like Chris. While those at his level might be considered PhD Baristas (Doctorate of Shotology ) I'm maybe a College Freshman at best.

Hopefully the Third Wave's battle against the primarily to totally money focused shops will gain continued broad reaching victories.

[malachi]

Oh... believe me... I know how bad 99% of all coffee in the US really is.
I'm not arguing that point - I'm in fact one of the ones who bitches about it most frequently.

I'm just asking for some sensitivity about the issue. I know that the vast majority of coffee available commercially is terrible. I know that most coffee businesses care less about quality than about their neon signs. But it's hurtful and insensitive and really does not help the situation to say things like:

To me it is a sad commentary that a well trained person can pull a better shot on a Krups Gusto than a "pro" can pull on a La Marzocco Linea.

and

The irony is those who have the 5 figure machines can only make swill!

and

We may be the only true baristas left with the move to putting in the super-auto machines and hiring people that could care less about coffee.

These sorts of statement are the equivalent of what you used to hear from folks in the SCAA about the ignorance of consumers, about how laughable home espresso and the "alties" are, etc.
Neither are true - both are insensitive and disrespectful.


Professional baristas are, in fact, working incredibly hard to try and change the situation in the US. This is, in essence, the goal of the BGA. There is little doubt that the barista jams and education sessions, coupled with the BGA booth at the SCAA show and demos and training sessions has had a direct impact on the spread of good coffee. But the BGA has been around less than 2 years and has had to overcome a lot of barriers due to various SCAA stuff. There is progress - but it's slow.

As for certification... well... I'm the wrong person to ask. I am deeply opposed to such an idea. It's to my mind a bureaucratic solution that is unlikely to work and more likely to do damage than anything else. I look at Transfair or any of the SCAA "certification" programs and shudder. Instead, I'm hoping we continue to organize and educate and agitate. It's been working so far. Just give us a little time. We've got decades of miseducation and misinformation to overcome and the big coffee companies are doing their best to counter any push towards true quality. It's going to be an uphill battle, and I doubt we'll ever represent more than 10% of the market. But that's 10 times what it was when we started.

[GreatDane]

Chris,
I dont mean to be insensitive.

Chis said, "I'm just asking for some sensitivity about the issue. I know that the vast majority of coffee available commercially is terrible. I know that most coffee businesses care less about quality than about their neon signs. But it's hurtful and insensitive and really does not help the situation to say things like:"............

I hope you noticed I put "pro" in quotes. I don't consider these people to be professional baristas. Unless getting a paycheck for pulling shots makes you a professional. The reality is what I shared.

I am shocked that the large commercial espresso places like Peets and Caribou have moved to super-automatics.

Having had the opportunity to pull shots on a La Marzocco Linea was an awesome experience. I didn't realize a machine could be so stable. I have to work pretty hard to get those kind of shots on my Expobar. However 80% of the time I do. The other 20% go down the drain.

To me this is what a shot should look like


I just find it to be so sad that there are great baristas that are not given there due. I also find it sad that so many people have been ruined to what is one of the greatest experiences in beverages and that is a good shot! I have begged and pleaded with many of my guests in my home to just try a good espresso! Most ask how much sugar I added when they finally had the courage to give it a try. I was amazed at our last gathering of homeroasters how many had never had an espresso since being so disappointed in the experience afforded them at a "pro" establishment. Why put out big buck for equipment when you don't care for the beverage? I bought my first espresso machine to prove to myself that it wasn't any good! When I dialed in my first good shot, boy was I surprised!

So is there a list of BGA members and where they practice?

Les

[another_jim]

I think the quality focused cafes are winning the head to head battle with chains and poor cafes. In Seattle there were a zillion Starbucks, but none close to one of the star cafes we talk about was doing too well. Intelligentsia's downtown Chicago store is doing so well they are opening up a second one 4 blocks away. There's all sorts of cafes in jumping distance from both locations, but the existing store is always full (good for me, since I like to stand in line for shots -- maybe when the GS3 tech hits the multigroups, I won't have to); and I'm sure the new one will be too. On alt.coffee we're twitting Nick Cho of Murky for being a millionaire after an article described him as a new wave entrepreneur.

It's true that the taste difference is especially apparent in a straight shot; but a good milk drink will knock the socks off a bad one too, especially when the bad one has the cardboard foam over watery swill from superautos or poorly trained personnel.

If you also add in that very high priced COE coffees and equivalent are selling out quickly when they come from high reputation roasters, I think we're well on the way to seeing the formation of a "superspecialty" market niche of superior cafes and roasters. Of course, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery; so the sign that this is definitely the case is when someone advertises their coffee or espresso as "almost as good as a COE coffee or WBC barista" Don't laugh, down under, Paul Bassett is shilling for Sunbeam espresso machines ("almost as good as I would make"); it'll be happening here soon too.

[malachi]

I am shocked that the large commercial espresso places like Peets and Caribou have moved to super-automatics.

To be blunt - I'm not. At all.
Peets, once upon a time in a land far far away, used to produce decent coffee. That is no longer the case.
And Caribou is, perhaps, inferior to Starbucks (IMHO).

In both cases, these are not quality focused businesses. They are margin focused businesses that are trying to compete with Starbucks. This puts them in the position of having to become a high-volume, low-margin business. In essence, they are now fast food. Given this, going to Super-Automatics was a foregone conclusion. It allows them to decrease labor costs, decrease training costs and decrease waste. Given that labor is such a huge part of their cost structure and given that, with such low margins, controlling percentage points on things like waste is critical to success... I think you could say it's in their shareholders' best interests to go to Super-Autos. In addition, with a high-volume low margin business you need to focus on that volume side. Super autos allow you to serve higher volume with lower labor costs than the alternatives.

None of these companies are "espresso" places. Some of them are true fast food. Some serve milk shakes. But most are in the business of selling a legal drug wrapped in effective brand and experience marketing. Implying that, because these companies are not quality focused, no commercial coffee companies are quality focused would be like saying because Outback Steakhouse serves terrible steak it's clearly impossible to get a good steak in the US.

Having had the opportunity to pull shots on a La Marzocco Linea was an awesome experience. I didn't realize a machine could be so stable. I have to work pretty hard to get those kind of shots on my Expobar. However 80% of the time I do. The other 20% go down the drain.

The Linea is a great machine. I love them to death. I think everyone should try as hard as they can to get a chance to play with one - some day. The build quality, the general sense of seriousness... it's very, very cool.
That being said, I have to admit that I wouldn't look forward to working on one anymore. They're still the milk steaming kings of the block, but machines like the Synesso and the GB5 have really made them look very dated. It's too bad. I love the look of the Linea and I have an emotional attachment. I wish Marzocco had kept the Linea and merely upgraded the boiler, brew path and control systems. That would be so much cooler than the GB5.

And Les... seriously, you need to try to get some time on the GS3. It will shock you how consistent it is.

So is there a list of BGA members and where they practice?

Hmmm... that's a good question.
If you go to the BGA forums, you can see a memberlist and that should give you some insight (members have to put their real info in there).
Probably worthwhile to suggest such a thing.

[malachi]

A good analogy that was recently shared with me...

How many truly great pizza places are there in your town or city?
How many really good ones?
Total them up.
Now... how many total pizza places are there in your town or city?
Compare these as a ratio.

Does this mean that you cannot get good pizza anywhere in the US except at your home?

[GreatDane]

Chris,
Your points are well taken. I have shared my thoughts with no malice in my mind or heart toward the professional barista. I have nothing but admiration and respect for the work they do. Making an elusive beverage and trying to please the public is a very difficult balancing act. I would like to end this thread with an open invitation for you to pass on any suggestions that might come your way in us helping support the true professional. My guess is almost all of us on the home-barista list would love to be able to go into an establishment and enjoy a really good shot! Many of us have given up. I would love to have some time on a GS3. I am currently saving up for a dual boiler system. When do you think they will be out? Who is going to distribute them?

Les

[malachi]

Honestly... I don't know if it's feasible to help most coffee businesses.
If the owner isn't passionate about serving great coffee, then they're not going to be willing to make the sacrifices needed. If they don't want to make great coffee you won't be able to force them to do so.

That being said, I used to carry these little business card sized cards with me that had the URLs of the Espresso Vivace articles collection, the BGA forum, the SCAA site and coffeegeek.com (HB.com did not exist at the time) printed on them. I would hand these to baristas who I thought would be interested but didn't know where to go to learn more about coffee.

I tend to focus, instead, on research in order to pre-identify good coffee bars. My hope is that I can support the good ones - educate customers about what good coffee is and as a result we'll see at least some of the bad ones go away.


I don't have a date on the GS3 yet. Some time this year. I would assume that ESI will distribute it and that it will be sold by the usual suspects (Espresso Parts, Chris' Coffee, etc).

[Abe Carmeli]

Professional baristas are, in fact, working incredibly hard to try and change the situation in the US. This is, in essence, the goal of the BGA. There is little doubt that the barista jams and education sessions, coupled with the BGA booth at the SCAA show and demos and training sessions has had a direct impact on the spread of good coffee.

This is a great discussion. Chris, this one is for you. The BGA has definitely made an impact in such short period of time. And kudos to all of you guys. But I must say that the Espresso Workshop at SCAA 2005 was the BGA's missed opportunity of the year. That workshop was full of would be coffee shop owners who came to learn how to make good espresso. What they got is mostly how to make bad Starbucks. Why? Because the majority of the teachers in that seminar were mechanics, coffee company executives, and a few waiters. How did that come about??? You guys should own that workshop. It was so bad, that I ended up teaching it. And this isn't the half of it. All the coffee I tried there was stale and a lot of it unsuitable for espresso. SCAA charged a fortune for the seminar, they couldn't spend a few bucks on good coffee??

Sorry for the rant, this is not your fault of course, but SCAA 2006 should be the BGA's opportunity to get it right. You must have some influence on the SCAA board, don't you?

[Nick]

You guys should own that workshop.

Hey Abe... that's a pretty good idea.

Too bad we already made it happen . The "ownership" is in progress. A few might slip through the cracks this April, but rest assured... the BGA won't stand for bad training to be given on our watch.

The BGA has been working together with the SCAA's Training Committee (chaired by Peter Giuliano) to tighten-up the selection of trainers. We're really looking forward to seeing how things work out.

[Abe Carmeli]

Hey Abe... that's a pretty good idea.

Too bad we already made it happen . The "ownership" is in progress.

Nick, that's great news. With you and Peter at the helm, there must be dramatic improvements. I look forward to Charlotte.

[malachi]

This is a great discussion. Chris, this one is for you. The BGA has definitely made an impact in such short period of time. And kudos to all of you guys. But I must say that the Espresso Workshop at SCAA 2005 was the BGA's missed opportunity of the year. That workshop was full of would be coffee shop owners who came to learn how to make good espresso. What they got is mostly how to make bad Starbucks. Why? Because the majority of the teachers in that seminar were mechanics, coffee company executives, and a few waiters. How did that come about??? You guys should own that workshop. It was so bad, that I ended up teaching it. And this isn't the half of it. All the coffee I tried there was stale and a lot of it unsuitable for espresso. SCAA charged a fortune for the seminar, they couldn't spend a few bucks on good coffee??

Sorry for the rant, this is not your fault of course, but SCAA 2006 should be the BGA'a opportunity to get it right. You must have some influence on the SCAA board, don't you?

I feel your pain (to say the least). Some day over beers we can share some horror stories.
I cannot argue your points at all. In fact, I guess I'll just say that I doubt you were as upset about the situation as I was (a long story).
Unfortunately, sessions like the Espresso Workshops were at that time run by the SCAA Training Committee. The BGA had no role, no oversight and no input.

Happily... that seems to all be changing.

[dawgcatching]

Is the commercial espresso business actually decreasing in quality, or is it just diverging? The bar is being raised by certain cafes, and eventually, those cafes will have more expensive drinks that the competition, due to using better beans/increased waste/higher wages than the stands like Dutch Bros. (who serve crap, but do it on the cheap). Maybe the market is becoming more focused: the sugary-latte crowd will patronize certain establishments that serve those drinks, and those who have experienced and want to be served good to exceptional espresso will pay a bit more and patronize the Stumptowns of the world. If I want a family-style pasta dinner, Olive Garden may be the choice, and if I want an very good Italian culinary experience, I go to Pazzo Ristorante. I think every business has to find it's niche, and to be honest, many sugary-latte drinkers are never going to be espresso fiends, in the same way that many people will never enjoy fine scotch-it is an acquired taste that isn't developed by many. Sugar, OTOH, is an aquired taste that we Americans have been developing most of our lives.

It would be nice, though, if the coffee consciousness was developed so that each town could support at least one good coffee establishment! I think that day is approaching! As Chris mentioned, Bishop can support Spellbinder, in a town of less than 4000 people! Not every barista down there may be the best, but they all at least have some passion for coffee, use Peter's freshly-roasted beans, and care enough to learn about the craft. As a result, the customer base is somewhat educated with regards to coffee, and much more loyal than the typical drive-thru coffee-stand customer. I would hope we could expect this, at the minimum, in every town and city!

[barry]

If the owner isn't passionate about serving great coffee, then they're not going to be willing to make the sacrifices needed. If they don't want to make great coffee you won't be able to force them to do so.

my wife ran into one of these over the weekend. when she refused the 3oz thin watery burnt single with no crema that she was served, the owner gave her every rationalization under the sun for why he brewed the shots he did, with the single exception of "taste". he even had the balls to ask why she thought she knew so much about coffee. fortunately, she didn't pull the "i've got a two group marzocco at home and my husband is a USBC judge" card, although she did mention something about being an SCAA member and having 17 years in the coffee biz. the guy resoundingly scoffed at the SCAA, and essentially ended with "we brew them this way because i want to brew them this way." fair enough. the coffee sucked, but he didn't care because "lots and lots of people like it." fair enough. popularity does not equate with quality, although it may equate with making money.

i'm going to take maddie there to see if she'll push the shot away like she did to that nasty one we got in seattle at the TI in the convention center.

--barry "baby's got good taste, afterall"