Rough surfaced puck

[IMAWriter]

As this never occurred whilst (love that word) pulling HX shots, I need some help here.
After removing the PF after pulling a shot on my Cremina, more than occasionally I'll notice that the puck has a weathered, rough appearance, and is just a touch wet looking, but not soupy. I don't believe it's due to too cold water. Could it be due to either under-dosing a "disturbed" puck while lifting the lever, or something else?
I don't observe any major clumps before filling the basket prior to the pull, and am tamping about 25lb.
TIA


EDIT...I think I'm going to purchase the CMH from Chris. Perhaps that will help.

[shadowfax]

Dang, Rob, how long have you been thinking about a CMH? Seems like quite awhile! I thought about it and opted for an SJ, at least for now. I just can't deal with the Cimbali look, I guess! I May sell my bike after awhile and upgrade to a Kony or, heck, a Robur, someday, but it's not in the cards anytime too soon.

The Olympia doesn't have anything like a pressure relief, right? Do you have to let the puck sit and depressurize slowly before taking it out? If so, I am not sure I would expect your pucks to look like the ones from an HX machine with a 3-way valve. I also don't understand what you mean by "weathered." Do you have any pictures? Seems like as long as it's even and hopefully not pitted your shot volumes are good, you should be in alright shape. I have had plenty of fine shots from pucks that didn't look pristine--so how are your shots?

Lifting the lever shouldn't do any damage to your puck. Air will flow quite freely through the dry puck without issue. If you suspect this type of problem, you can always lift the lever almost all the way up before locking in the PF. The only thing I can think of that might disturb your puck at the beginning of the shot is if the water flows into the piston too fast. There is no dispersion block of any kind, so an underdosed shot could definitely get disturbed during preinfusion. I would try to take it slow when you hit that point raising the lever where the water starts to flow in. Just hold it and let it trickle in for awhile before opening it all the way to the top. That is what I would do with my Pavoni, which works similarly (though the quality is far from comparable ).

Not to deter you from an equipment upgrade, of course. By all means, by all means....

[IMAWriter]

Nicholas....I needed to sell my SJ before I could spring for the CMH...
I realize that a funky puck doesn't always lead to a funky pull...but the resultant shot blonded after about 10 seconds from the descent of the lever...no squirts (I've got a Newd PF)....
I was doing the "Fellini" technique, slowly lift to the top, then a couple of 1/4th pulls(pumps), then a full pump down. But as I like short shots, I think I'll try your suggestion to stop just short of fully up, then lift to top, and pull. I exerting about 30lbs down. With my Pavoni, 30 lbs would get me 1oz in 25-28 seconds.
I wonder if I may have pop a piston gasket, as my shot volume is close to 2oz. Home Espresso Repair had pronounced my gaskets in fine shape. After getting my Cremina back, I did have one memorably long...and nearly impossible to finish pull, thanks to a too fine grind on the SJ. The lever flexed a touch, buit did not bend. stopped the pull, released some pressure from the steam valve, and finished the pull.
I'm a bit discouraged...not common for me, but I think as fine a grinder as the PeDe is, it may be my distribution that's off as well. I'm not particularly fond of having to scoop coffee into a basket.

OT...the PeDE helped produce the absolute BEST Aerobie press Americano I've ever had. I highly recommend a hand grinder for this. I'm sure others, such as Jack have a better "handle" (sorry ) on how to best utilize a hand grinder for espresso.
It's a bummer being a NOOB...again.

[shadowfax]

I never had any luck with the "Fellini" move, or any variation of it, on my Pavoni. It sounds like something that is totally unsuited to a direct lever machine like a Pavoni or a Cremina--seems like it was originally intended for spring levers to begin with, right? Anyway, I strongly feel like pulling the lever up after pressing it down again is an action that is more than likely to mess with your puck. I could be wrong (not too unusual ), but that's been my experience. I love ristrettos to begin with, so 1 oz. shots from 12-13 grams of coffee never bothered me. If you want a Normale, I would try the single basket.

Keep us posted on your experience. I am looking forward to seeing what you perceive as changed with the CMH. Who knows, maybe you'll convince me to put it on my short list...

[BillR]

I have a Cremina too that I recently got (I think I'm about 2-3 weeks behind you) and although you didn't post any pics, I know exactly what you mean because I see the same thing. Lately I've been using the single basket (that started a couple of weeks ago when I was running out of coffee - typically either Black Cat or Kid-O). The procedure after bean dosing, grinding, dispensing and tamping is to do a pressure release with the steam wand, raise the lever with the pf a bit loose, lock the pf and count to 10, than pull a shot of about 25 sec. I typically have a puck that has a "weathered" surface and have wondered about it too. Also, the crema I get is not the darker russet brown kind, but lighter and often spotted. That is after the first shot, which usually has ginger crema which I have taken as due to a greater than 2 degree temp change in the water (it is a bit acidic too). Subsequent shots have somewhat darker crema with speckles - taste fine to me.
Oh - I'm still using the plastic tamper as the Reg I ordered hasn't come yet. The only problem with it is that it is a bit small in diameter, leaving coffee up the edges of the basket after the soft tamp. I can usually get this off by a gentle tap.

Bill

[HB]

I've seen spent pucks with tops as smooth as the countertop and others that looked like moonscapes. If there is a correlation between the puck's surface after depressurization and the taste of the espresso, I've yet to discover it. In barista competitions, the tech judges only look for consistency; whether the spent pucks are firm as a brick, mushy, or in between, they don't care, as long as they're the same shot-to-shot.

Anyway, although I'm not into puckology, I agree with the above posters that the Fellini Move will likely disturb the pristine nature of the puck's surface. The cause was more evident when I started using a bottomless portafilter with the Ponte Vecchio Lusso because with the bottom open to the air, it was easy to hear the sucking sound of air being drawn through the puck when recocking the lever.

Back to the original question: Rob, do you correlate a taste defect with the rough surfaced pucks? Or are you grasping for justification of an upgrade?

[RegulatorJohnson]

just go buy the new grinder and stop trying to get us to justify it so you can show you wife this thread and say see they think i should get a new grinder..

jon

[mgwolf]

Hi Rob, Although I'm far from an expert with the Cremina, I've always had better luck with simplicity. Raise the lever 2/3 way with the PF open slightly, then close the PF, and Slowly raise the lever all the way. Count to 10 (or 15 or whatever) and then pull your shot. Every time I've tried the Fellini or variations of it, the shot never turns out as nice. My pucks usually have a "rougher" look to them (like rain drops on sand). I always assumed it was a shower from the showerhead. Michael

[IMAWriter]

I've seen spent pucks with tops as smooth as the countertop and others that looked like moonscapes. If there is a correlation between the puck's surface after depressurization and the taste of the espresso, I've yet to discover it. In barista competitions, the tech judges only look for consistency; whether the spent pucks are firm as a brick, mushy, or in between, they don't care, as long as they're the same shot-to-shot.

Anyway, although I'm not into puckology, I agree with the above posters that the Fellini Move will likely disturb the pristine nature of the puck's surface. The cause was more evident when I started using a bottomless portafilter with the Ponte Vecchio Lusso because with the bottom open to the air, it was easy to hear the sucking sound of air being drawn through the puck when recocking the lever.

Back to the original question: Rob, do you correlate a taste defect with the rough surfaced pucks? Or are you grasping for justification of an upgrade?

Dan.,..there is a video on YouTube with the "barista" (who shall remain nameless) performing the Fellini on a Cremina.
As I have no electric grinder now, ANYTHING will be an upgrade.

[IMAWriter]

just go buy the new grinder and stop trying to get us to justify it so you can show you wife this thread and say see they think i should get a new grinder..

jon

Sounds like you've been there done that yourself

[RegulatorJohnson]

yeah i have been there.. the road eventually ends when you and your wife start a shop..sigh..that is really probably the start of a new road.

i was thinking what would make the same phenomenon happen with a pump machine? would it be channeling? this is consistent with the early blonding..maybe too much pressure??

buy a new grinder anyway it cant hurt anything, cept a few beans.

jon

[IMAWriter]

You're right.
I'm still a work in progress. I'm going to try the single pull suggestions, and I'm ordering my grinder. I already miss my SJ.

[shadowfax]

Let us know how they work out. I think I might fire up the La Pavoni tomorrow myself. My bottomless PF is out for "service." My buddy is making an insulated aluminum handle for it... going to be AWESOME, if he ever gets around to it. I haven't played with the La Pavoni since I got the new Super Jolly.

Was yours an old one or a new one? I got mine brand new from Sebastian @ Great Infusions. Love the larger body style and some of the incremental doser improvements that I discuss in these pictures. The SJ is pretty pleasant to work with with the milk jug plastic Schnozzola thing on it.

Anyway, don't want to stray too far OT on your thread, Rob... let us know if the single pull solves the blonding. Heh, you would think it could solve it just by virtue of being less volume. Question--when, say, the portafilter is empty and the Cremina is on and ready for action, how fast does the water come out if you just pull the lever to the top? My vintage Pavoni Pro sprays. I have a friend with a Millennium Europiccola that just trickles kind of pathetically. Far from being concerned I was destroying my pucks, I was actually a lot more worried that his wasn't filling up the piston enough to make a whole shot with 10 seconds of preinfusion!

On the other hand, This is a slightly fast, but not atypical shot for me on my La Pavoni. You can see that it has some channeling that might be the result of an upset puck. I was using the WDT:

From Flickr...

[IMAWriter]

Nicholas....great water distribution out the screen...which I just cleaned...I also do the wiggle.
It sprays, very evenly.
The single pull did the trick. Also, I semi cheated. I ground 14 grams in the PeDe, used the funnel from my Aerobie in the PF and basket, and dumped the grind in, stirred ala WDT...tapped down once, removed the funnel gently, and carefully and lightly distributed. The result was (counting the 8 seconds of "infusion") about a 25 second pull...no squirts, no blonding till I pulled the cup.
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Note...this next comment is especially for "CafeIKE".
Ian, the taste was very nice, especially for the first shot of the session. Generally the 2nd tastes just a bit sweeter, temperature is better, I'd bet. It was a Yellow daterra Brazilian peaberry I roasted last week. Chocolate, not much fruit, a touch of nut, but not hazelnut.
Next time, I'll do 2 shots back to back I bet the slightly higher temperature out the group will give me a bit of fruit, ya think?
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Thanks to all. I hope in a while I can be as helpful as you folks.

[IMAWriter]

Ian....I apologize....I actually meant to offer my "Note" to you as an olive branch, and was gently scolded by several here.
peace?
respectfully,
ME

[mogogear]

Rob,

It sounds as if your having fun with the Cremina... FWIW- I have been more complicated in my fist year with a Cremina than I ever have since. I used to try to double pull a double shot- Then I was very Fellini-esque ( like in Mark Princes Youtube video- and others) trying to get a bigger shot and just to mess around with technique. Then I just went back to basics.

Now I just do my grind and tamp ritual- Pull the lever up to just before water admission - load the PF- finish the raise.

Then pre-infusion----I just rest my natural forearms weight on the lever till I get the first drop. Usually about 10-15 seconds depending on freshness of my beans mostly...New beans - 15 seconds- older 10 ... I do not vary my grinder much- I seem to have a nice sweet spot that I am OK with...

One drop - thats all and I lift the lever back up- a moderately gentle lift mind you.. and hang at the top for about a 2-3 count. I then begin my pull.

Mostly just the weight of my full arm now, but I wait as the drops begin and start to develop into the cone in the center. As soon as I get a centralized pour, I ramp up the pressure steady but to fully firm. ( This hearkens back to Alchemist and Thor's tests with a pressure gauge mounted to the top of a Cremina piston rod..you will have to look it up)

I really never am concerned with any average fluctuations in puck look. Mostly they look counter top, every now and then a little wet.

I look for dark droplets in the cup- no blonding- my volume is mostly about 1.75 oz - 2 oz. I really just focus on taste. The shot flavor varies more with where I make my shot in the shot count each morning more than anything else. I make my wife's Americano- that I stroke 3 times through a doppio-!!!

Then I make my doppio... that seems to work for me!! Even in the afternoon when there is no "Spousal coffee" to make- I draw about two full blank shots before I make the money shot. That temp works for me on Stumptown Hairbender blend ( a Fullcity roast )

This is all related in what works for me - But Dan said it- all puckology is OK to worry about if your shots don't pull right- or spray- or you have other issues..but taste buds will lead you to YOUR promised land- and that is where you want to be... not anybody else's. If your mouth says good- then sip it and forget what goes in the bang box!!

Have fun and thanks for humoring me on this ramble

Ciao

[IMAWriter]

Rob,

It sounds as if your having fun with the Cremina... FWIW- I have been more complicated in my fist year with a Cremina than I ever have since. I used to try to double pull a double shot- Then I was very Fellini-esque ( like in Mark Princes Youtube video- and others) trying to get a bigger shot and just to mess around with technique. Then I just went back to basics.

Now I just do my grind and tamp ritual- Pull the lever up to just before water admission - load the PF- finish the raise.

Then pre-infusion----I just rest my natural forearms weight on the lever till I get the first drop. Usually about 10-15 seconds depending on freshness of my beans mostly...New beans - 15 seconds- older 10 ... I do not vary my grinder much- I seem to have a nice sweet spot that I am OK with...

One drop - thats all and I lift the lever back up- a moderately gentle lift mind you.. and hang at the top for about a 2-3 count. I then begin my pull.

Mostly just the weight of my full arm now, but I wait as the drops begin and start to develop into the cone in the center. As soon as I get a centralized pour, I ramp up the pressure steady but to fully firm. ( This hearkens back to Alchemist and Thor's tests with a pressure gauge mounted to the top of a Cremina piston rod..you will have to look it up)
[snipped]



Ciao

If I even try to "re-raise" the lever after the first drops, it just gets stuck and I can't lower it....
There is nothing wrong with the gaskets, nor my grind...I've been doing this a long time.
It happens as well with my new Max Hybrid...no improvement after 2 weeks.
I haven't had anything approaching a good tasting shot, let alone good looking.
yet, no squirts.
Frankly, I'm very discouraged, and about ready to sell my Cremina. I may just not be a candidate for one of these. frankly, I got better pulls with a vitamin bottle tamper and a Europiccola. I just didn't like the ergonomics of the Pavoni...small reservoir, over heating, etc.
What I also can't figure out is that even with my PeDe adjusted to it's finest setting (burrs rubbing egregiously),I get 15 second pours.
I'm having a bad espresso 3 month period.
I believe my distribution to be more than adequate. I will say, I've never used a flat bottomed tamper before...always the very slightly convex base.
Anyone else use a convex base with a 49mm basket?
Sorry for the negativity, I'm just beyond unhappy right now.

[orwa]

In my case, the puck appearance is most often dependent on how fresh the coffee is. That is, I get levelled, nice and dry pucks that come off easily when the beans are allowed to rest for sufficient time after roasting, whereas I get this sort of a wet surface otherwise. This, along with other observations regarding how over-temperature brewing effects the puck apearance/characteristics, makes me think that in my case, the appearance of the puck is easily correlated with brewing quality. For example, when the coffee do not rest for enough time, the wet-appearance of the puck correlates with the taste imperfections that you cannot avoid in a coffee that has not rested for enough time. Also, when the water temperature is too high, you get a layered puck that doesn't neatly get knocked off at once but rather comes off in layers, or will lead to the part of the puck adjacent to the bottom of the basket to adhere to the metal. On the other hand, when the water temperature is too cold, this do not effect the puck but manifests itself in the light crema, and the shallow extraction. These are my humble reservations with regard to how the puck looks like on my Professional and how it correlates with some factors.

Moreover, I would like to comment that it is still reasonable to demand a nice and dry puck that comes off at once with a (direct-)lever machine even though there is no direct mechanism to release the pressure from the group immediately after brewing. This is because of the good amount of very hot air that resides above the brewing water within the group, or within the brewing chamber, which very effectively dries the puck at the end of the extraction in case the lever was pulled all the way down. I even use that feature to dry the second-type pucks after steaming milk by simply raising the lever, locking in the portafilter and just leaving the lever. The steam power at the point of frothing will then be sufficient to dry the puck automatically in a cool fashion.

[mogogear]

FWIW- I use a sight convex tamper- not all machines are destined for all people- You get to choose whats right for you!! I have a tamper and a bottomless PF from Richard ( like you) and they work great for me... that doesn't help your cup taste better though... You will know when to vote with your mouth.

The PeDe grinder just possible may not be up to the job-I have some PeDe's that are great and some not up to the fineness needed for the Cremina..I confess though I mostly use my Nouva Simonelli MCF for my Cremina combo!!

Your Cremina can always find a new home... your are stuck with your taste buds for life

[peacecup]

Once again there are three factors that determine flow rate - grind fineness, dose, and tamp. If you're grinding as fine and you can, dosing as full as you can, and doing handstand tamps, and still getting 15 second pours, you've got problems. One, the PeDe is trashed, and can't grind fine enough, or two your beans are not good for espresso.

If you feel like taking a chance with the PeDe set the burrs even tighter, to where they rub fairly hard. When the beans are in there you'll be surprised that you can still grind. ATTENTION THIS DOES NOT COME WITH A MONEY-BACK GUARANTEE!! That is, you could damage the burrs I guess, although I never have. If if doesn't work anyway, I guess there's not much to lose.

If you suspect the beans try something else, and be sure they're fresh. Working with a spring lever for a while has taught me the importance of using a good espresso blend. Spring levers don't use as much pressure, so you really need great beans to get the good crema that gives espresso its mouthfeel. One drawback of a manual lever is that you can up the pressure to get lots of crema, and what LOOKS like good espresso. But if the beans aint there, it won't taste good anyway.

Find a blend/roast that you like and stick with it a while. Thats the only way to fine tune all the other variables.

PC