Roasting for cupping.

[doleeo]

I would like to take my love for coffee to the next level, cupping.

I was wondering if I will get the same effect if I roast in a popcorn popper or in a drum roaster?

[miKe mcKoffee]

I would like to take my love for coffee to the next level, cupping.

I was wondering if I will get the same effect if I roast in a popcorn popper or in a drum roaster?

Cupping roast traditionally a very light roast, City at most. Most electric popcorn poppers roast too fast for a good, fully developed City roast yielding under roasted interior of the bean in lighter roasts. Modding for variable boosted heater control (and ideally also varible boosted fan control) gives the profile control needed for any roast profile.

[another_jim]

Other than getting lucky and finding a P1 popper or a Scirroco, most air roasters are not very durable. As Mike said, for cupping, and also for the most flexibility in espresso roasting, you'll want to make some modifications to slow the roast down. It is best to do this with an external box that can be hooked into whatever you are using, and carried over to its replacement when it breaks.

Sweet Maria's sells variacs sized for the job (about 25lb). Heavy duty dimmers also work, as do solid state relays driven by PID controllers or other electronic circuitry. I'll prepare a "How To" shortly that gives the basic details and links.

[doleeo]

well then, if a popper won't cut it then would an I-roast or similar fluid bed roaster?

[another_jim]

The I-roast can do nice light roasts if you happen to get one that is calibrated properly. Unfortunately, their QC is appalling, and the units mostly run too cool, or too hot. Also, they are not reliable. If you want off the shelf, spring for a Hottop. Otherwise, build your own or mod a popper.

I know this sounds harsh, but the home roasting market is minuscule, so anything that is durable will cost either money or time.

[miKe mcKoffee]

I agree 100% with Jim on the I-Roast. And go a step further believing even a good IR falls far short in it's profiling capabilities in two primary ways. First IIRC it has a factory hard set first stage to 350f which cannot be over ridden. Second their method of limited profile control is accomplished by primarily changing fan speed and or heater totally on or off.

A mod'd popper with dual independent continuously variable heater and fan control a far superior roaster. Now gut the IR electronics and mod it the same way and you're in business, but a waste of money.

For off the shelf roasters for the I ain't a do it yourself moddin' kind of person in addition to the HotTop I've heard pretty good results for the Gene Cafe, with the exception of it's cooling.

[Abe Carmeli]

For off the shelf roasters for the I ain't a do it yourself moddin' kind of person in addition to the HotTop I've heard pretty good results for the Gene Cafe, with the exception of it's cooling.

The Gene Cafe Cooling problem is solved with this Cooling Pan. Just don't get the Stir Crazy Convection Oven combo recommended on that page. That thing is a turkey unless you PID it.

[miKe mcKoffee]

The Gene Cafe Cooling problem is solved with this Cooling Pan.

Absolutely many very effective ways to quick cool roasts outside a roaster. Which require handling very hot beans/bean roast chamber of some sort of course. I was simply pointing out the in-roaster cooling of the Gene Cafe is anemic. OTOH if taken into account it could possibly have similar results to the old style double roasting for espresso, just a reverse second roast profile of sorts.

[another_jim]

I agree 100% with Jim on the I-Roast. And go a step further believing even a goodIR falls far short in it's profiling capabilities in two primary ways. First IIRC it has a factory hard set first stage to 350f which cannont be over ridden. Second their method of limited profile control is accomplished by primarily changing fan speed and or heater totally on or off.

Lol. After sending it back twice for repairs, and a final trip to the dump, I never had a chance to find out.

Mike and Abe, what do you think? I have the impression that unlike other coffee equipment, there's not a lot of awareness how good or bad coffee roasters can be. Home roasters tend to be like evangelists, making it sound cheap and easy. But like everything else in coffee, cheap and easy gets you only so far (although arguably a lot further in roasting than in anything else), to get all the way, one needs to spend some money and time. Perhaps, keeping with the general tone of HB, we can focus on the roasting 202.

My apologies to the OP for hijacking the thread. Here's a tip as apology: if you want a dirt cheap way of slowing down a popper for better cupping or espresso roast, get 100 foot 16 gauge extension cord. This will drop the voltage enough to slow things down. Another way is to reduce the amount of beans you roast. Instead of filling the popper so it barely stirs, add only enough to get a slow but marked agitation at the start (usually about 10 to 15 grams, or a 1/2 ounce less than normal). However, this needs to be done carefully to avoid a stalled roast.

[miKe mcKoffee]

My apologies to the OP for hijacking the thread. Here's a tip as apology: if you want a dirt cheap way of slowing down a popper for better cupping or espresso roast, get 100 foot 16 gauge extension cord. This will drop the voltage enough to slow things down. Another way is to reduce the amount of beans you roast. Instead of filling the popper so it barely stirs, add only enough to get a slow but marked agitation at the start (usually about 10 to 15 grams, or a 1/2 ounce less than normal). However, this needs to be done carefully to avoid a stalled roast.

Another way install an inline toggle switch to heater portion of circuit, toggling on & off to become a human PID.

[Abe Carmeli]

Mike and Abe, what do you think? I have the impression that unlike other coffee equipment, there's not a lot of awareness how good or bad coffee roasters can be. Home roasters tend to be like evangelists, making it sound cheap and easy. But like everything else in coffee, cheap and easy gets you only so far (although arguably a lot further in roasting than in anything else), to get all the way, one needs to spend some money and time. Perhaps, keeping with the general tone of HB, we can focus on the roasting 202..

I think it is very similar to espresso machines in that respect. To get good espresso you need to spend ~ 800.00 on an entry level prosumer machine. anything under it just doesn't cut it. (My apologies to the Silvia die hards, and to avoid an avalanche of protest I did try it more than once, it just ain't there). So, the small air poppers like IRoast are just an intro to what happens to green coffee when you roast it, but you will never get the quality you can get with a $500.00 roaster. The Variac may help control a small air popper, but no cigar. Temperature control in roasting is even more important than in espresso machines, and when I looked at the performance of a commonly used combo of Convection oven & Stir Crazy I was shocked to see a dead band of 80f. It tasted like old elephant dung, but that wasn't a surprise. Long story short, to get the quality approaching a professional roaster from a home roast, you will need to spend ~ $500.00 and up, or do some PID work on an off the shelf design, like the S/C C/O combo. So, I agree Jim, we should focus on Roasting 202 and skip the sub entry stuff.

[doleeo]

thanks for all the info guys.

I've tried roasting for espresso on my popcorn popper and it was horrible...so I guess it didn't dawn on me that it wouldn't be very good at getting all the flavors out of the bean.

I've had my eye on a hottop for quite some time. Looks like now might be the time to finally pull the trigger.... although I've heard speculations about a new hottop coming out? Any info on that?

[HB]

...although I've heard speculations about a new hottop coming out?

See Dave's New Hottop for the home roasters.

[miKe mcKoffee]

Variac may help control a small air popper, but no cigar.

I respectfully disagree, especially if able to score an original West Bend Poppery 1. And quite simple to implement. With dual independent variable voltage control to split fan & heater P1 does 1/2# plus batch no problem with total profile control. And cost well under $500. Say even Ebay auction priced P1 $50, ~$100 for for 10 to 20A heater variac, $25 for 2A fan control. Or push up to the $500 mark for automation with PID control and multiple profiles with multiple stages, ramps and soaks. Add either decent analog thermometer or TC into bean mass and away you go.

Jim proved years ago even a wee little modified and controlled Fresh Roast quite capable of excellent profiled roasts. Repeatably. Consistently.

Abe, just for fun (and to illustrate my point in your cup) I'd love to send you a sample of my current Winter Solstice blend, no cigar profile roasted of course. Shoot me a PM with your snail mail addy if interested!

[rasqual]

I respectfully disagree, especially if able to score an original West Bend Poppery 1.

Or a Wearever Pumper! The beefy one, that is.

Another tip, and I guess that's a pun: Tilting the popper gives appropriate agitation, but the degree of tilt also affects the temperature by modifying the backpressure to the hot air feed. Anything that slows or speeds the airflow across that heater coil allows for control.

Various bean morphologies inhibit or assist agitation, affecting backpressure. I've found peaberries can be a nightmare, and denser beans present problems. Then again, 10 oz. of monsooned Malabar pretty much fills the 12" pyrex topper I use; it gets pretty ridiculous. At any rate, being set up to easily vary the tilt allows for some fine adjustment when you're already pushing the boundaries.

Wish I had a PID.

[another_jim]

Wish I had a PID.

The $35 1/32nd Din PID controller on sale by several ebay stores, e.g. item number 190067965023, works well, but has no ramp control; you'd need to ramp up the temperature manually. Attached to the inflow air of a popper or convection oven, this wouldn't be to bad -- set it at 350 for 4 to 5 minutes, then pop it up to 450 to 500 to end the roast.

The $80 PRC ramp controller from Auber Instruments I tried didn't work, and I'd avoid that company, since the owner thinks he's got a better than PID algorithm, and it's programmed into most of the models he sells without any indication that this is so. Unfortunately, the algorithm is nothing like a PID, but an on/off with anticipation type thing, and is useless for coffee roasting since it permanently hunts.

[rasqual]

The $35 . . .
The $80 . . .

The slope of the line through those two points suggests that PID bliss is only found on higher slopes.

[another_jim]

The slope of the line through those two points suggests that PID bliss is only found on higher slopes.

Realistically, you're still looking at around $200 to build a full-auto PID box for a roaster with an electric heater. For espresso machines, or if you want to keep changing the setpoint on the front panel for roasting, one can get down to around $100 easily now.

No idea how expensive the actuator for percentage controlling a gas flame is.

[DigMe]

Temperature control in roasting is even more important than in espresso machines, and when I looked at the performance of a commonly used combo of Convection oven & Stir Crazy I was shocked to see a dead band of 80f. It tasted like old elephant dung, but that wasn't a surprise.

I feel like the dead band can be compensated for and pretty good control can be asserted using a digital thermo. I've gotten the hang of my CO pretty well after a short period of time. Maybe my palate isn't as refined as yours but the resulting coffee has been wonderful and an improvement over my slightly modified P1. I've mainly only roasted Monkey Blend and Timor FTO maubese and they've both been great. I don't know...maybe my CO is just easier to tweak or something (American Harvest Convection Perfection 200T).

bc

[miKe mcKoffee]

No idea how expensive the actuator for percentage controlling a gas flame is.

Mike (just Plain in The Dalles) may have an answer to that question soon. (Secret project he's working on modding a guys Sivetz with PID control.) But it's progress has been slowed do to just starting completely refurbing two three group LMs. And if all goes as planned and hoped (from talking customer into it) one of the three groups will become a two group with the center group removed and then hot water dispensing from brew boiler in it's place. The removed LM group is to be his starting point for his even secreter project of building a dual boiler machine for himself from the ground up.