Reviving Futurmat Ariete?

[djmonkeyhater]

why wouldn't i drive with the family 50 miles out of the way to a dark garage to buy this on craigslist? even was accused of not being forthright by the wife when i told her that it was so clean that i might keep it instead of getting it for my brother.

her - "Well?"
me - "Oh my god, it has a built in pump. I'm keeping it. It's too big for my brother's kitchen! I mean can you believe it...IT HAS A 110V PROCON PUMP THAT SPINS FREELY! DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT THAT'S WORTH? Twice what I'm paying for it!"
her - "will that stuff fix the other one you spent all of that money on?"
me - "No. That one's 220v."
her - stares straight ahead.

oh yeah, the astoria isn't all done yet either. But i figured a more obscure model from a brand in Spain that doesn't have a US office or widely available parts with a complicated metered dosing logic board would be a good addition to the basment.



Pretty clean for a garage find. Cadmium plated frame, Sirai pressurestat, built-in ProCon that feels good. Chrome grouphead is nice and shows no mileage, some dents in outer panels. Funny steam wand auto-cappuccino deal that seems intact. I almost chucked it but maybe I'll play with it. Broken steam knob, missing portafilter and shower screen are the sum of the missing pieces.



110v sticker on an 8 liter boiler. Tons of solenoids for the auto-frother. Some burnt wires but all in all - pretty good shape. There is another thermostat backing up the Sirai. I haven't figured that one out yet.



So it looks like it might work but this is the power cord BUT What on earth should one do with 4 wires for a 110v machine?

[MachoSilvia]

Could it be three phase wiring? (3 phase plus a fourth wire for earthing) Im no electrician so im not entirely sure at all...

but I have the same machine the two group version, and just thought id say its great, (I dont like to say its an obscure spanish model to my friends, I say 'its the prestigious ITALIAN e61 design of 1961" )

Cheers, Mark

[HB]

What on earth should one do with 4 wires for a 110v machine?

I'm not an electrician either, but does this help: US and Europe wiring standards what color is which wire?

Could it be three phase wiring?

Wikipedia to the rescue: color codes of three phase electric power.

[cannonfodder]

Futurmat use to be Faema of Spain. I ground up rebuilt one a couple of years ago but my unit was 220v and having an onboard pump is nice. My machine had a hard life, but was quite a bit older than that one and a two group. It was still branded Faema.

[djmonkeyhater]

3-phase 110v power makes this machine oh-so-that-much more exclusive! Hopefully the next one will be positive earth.

I'm gonna need to ponder the magnitude of this and of what it will take to connect it to my Seattle house. It's still early in the week for my electrical engineering lesson.



Here's the big brain on Ariete. If I have read correctly at 7AM late for work, wouldn't this 3-phase dream mostly be for amperage for the heating element? I jumpered the motor and it fires right up with 1-phase 110.



I did run standard 110 to it in various ways and got the keypad to light up, the motor to spin and some solenoids to click. But I couldn't get the element to power up.

WAIT - could there be two legs of 110v power to the element? Can that work? There's another thermocouple that goes to another relay device. that does something magicial possibly. It's to the left of the Sirai box in this image.

[cannonfodder]

That is probably the thermal high limit switch. If the pstat sticks closed and the machine super heats the emergency valve will pop to vent pressure but the heater will continue run. That detects the over temperature and shuts down the heater. Like a fancy thermal fuse, remember this is a one group commercial so it is designed to run 24/7. If you are closed for business and the Pstat sticks at 2 am, that prevents your heating element from exploding.

Do you have a 3 way power switch? Most commercial machines have a three way, off, power but no heat, power and heat. It takes a few moments to fill the boiler so you don't want heat to the element until the boiler is filled. I guess it could be three phase 110 but that would be quite unusual. How about a close-up of the spec sticker on the right side of the machine, that should reveal all the mystery.

[jesawdy]

Methinks it is actually 220V. Like a dryer, the motor and some electrics are 110V but the heating element is 220V. 'Course I am just guessing.

As Dave said, it should have a spec plate somewhere (of 'course I've seen one wrong already in my limited experience). Besides, three phase should have 5 wires, 3 legs, neutral and a ground.

I also agree with Dave on the the other thermostat, that's your safety hi-limit stat to prevent you from a total meltdown.

[cannonfodder]

I was thinking that myself, not enough lines for a three phase, looks like a 220v or two 110's that share a neutral or two phase but that would be really bizarre. You can see the spec sticker on the right side in the lower photo on the drip tray frame. My machine had two stickers, on the outside right of the frame and another inside left of the drip tray.

That high limit probe should run into the heating element end cap, it is strapped to the heating element on the inside.
Futurmat Parts

[stefano65]

I would look at the motor
the solenoid valve
the input of the transformer on the motherboard
and finally the heating element to determinate the voltage

IF is a 220 volt machine
the normal way of wiring
is Blue one leg
Brown and Black together the other leg
yellow/green ground/neutral

[Psyd]

IF is a 220 volt machine
the normal way of wiring
is Blue one leg
Brown and Black together the other leg
yellow/green ground/neutral

I'm hoping that this is a phrasing issue, 'cause either it's older Euro wiring and blue is hot, as is brown, and black is neutral, or its newer Euro wiring (doncha just love it!?!) where black and brown are hot, and blue is neutral. Maybe I'm misinterpreting your use of 'leg'? In any case, on a (newer) Euro 220V connection, neither of these would be connected together. Both would have a line connection, and the neutral would be the blue, and the yellow w/green would be earth.
I dunno if it helps, but on the new (old) LP Compact I just got step-fathered to has the black one cut off. I'm somewhat skeptical on how this thing is supposed to be wired, as it came with a 20A Edison end -
Cheesy AASCII art u
- I
with brown wired hot, brown wired neutral, and ground as yellow w/ green.
I haven't plugged anything in yet... ; >

[Paul_Pratt]

I'm hoping that this is a phrasing issue, 'cause either it's older Euro wiring and blue is hot, as is brown, and black is neutral, or its newer Euro wiring (doncha just love it!?!) where black and brown are hot, and blue is neutral. Maybe I'm misinterpreting your use of 'leg'? In any case, on a (newer) Euro 220V connection, neither of these would be connected together. Both would have a line connection, and the neutral would be the blue, and the yellow w/green would be earth.
I dunno if it helps, but on the new (old) LP Compact I just got step-fathered to has the black one cut off. I'm somewhat skeptical on how this thing is supposed to be wired, as it came with a 20A Edison end -
Cheesy AASCII art u
- I
with brown wired hot, brown wired neutral, and ground as yellow w/ green.
I haven't plugged anything in yet... ; >

I'd go with Stefano, quite common in europe to split power for the heaters. Blue is neutral and black and brown are phase. Combining black and brown is normal you just turn a 2 phase into 1 phase. Although from the heater pic it is hard to tell if there are 2 elements or just 1.

An 8 litre 1 group HX boiler is quite large and should have at least 2600W in there. Maybe it was a 220V machine modified down to 110V?

Paul

[djmonkeyhater]

So i've skimmed all of the postings. Here's some supporting information:



Don't know what this is but it says 110v on it. It's in the brain.



One of a number of solenoids.



Motor.



1875w 120v element. Is this like having a 4 cylinder mustang? It won't be run that hard so it should survive.



On the top of the frame.



On the side of the frame.



The switch. Somebody talked about this above. One position for filling prior to use, and the other for running it.

My under informed theory of the night:

Could there be two hots to make wiring that 0-1-2 switch easy? Common neutral, feed hot into two switch poles allowing for easy circuit splitting/joining? One hot could power all but the element and the other only hits the element?

That or someone send over their machine repair gremlin tonight. I'll leave the door unlocked and a cup by the kegerator. If he fixes the dribble in the autofill solenoid on the Astoria, he can fill up a 1/2 gallon growler to take back to his owner.

Wes

[cannonfodder]

It sure looks like a 110 unit, it has a 1.8 bar maximum boiler pressure before the pressure release valve opens and a 7 liter boiler. Your input (mains) pressure has a minimum input of 2 bar and a maximum of 5 bar so it will need plumbed in and regulated. I have seen rotary machines fed from static water tanks with no issue though.

The power switch can be tricky, my Faema position 0 is off, 1 is all power including the heater and position 2 was just electronics with no heater. From the lights beside it, I would say the amber is an active heater and red is an circuit power. You can check it by putting a continuity meter on one leg of the power, the other on the heater element. When you hit a switch position that makes the meter register, you will know which position is heater and which is electronics. Beyond that, you may be safer contacting a dealer that carries that machine and ask them about your power situation.

[jesawdy]

Clearly it's looking like it is indeed 110V.

So what do you have? A machine with no cord attached, or a machine with a cord that has no plug end (like it was formerly hardwired)?

Also, have you checked the element? Remove the wires and see if you can measure the resistance of the element via the terminals. If you have a short, you have a problem. Also, check that you can not measure a short from either leg terminal to the boiler or the brass end of the heating element.

[djmonkeyhater]

UPDATE:

It is indeed 110v. The parent company for Futurmat is Quality Espresso out of Spain. After emailing their generic email box with little expectations, I got a reply from Luis there. Props to them for responding. After trying to get some questions answered by Astoria/CMA, I had zero expectations.

The machine has two hots and one neutral. Their diagram basically shows you combining them to a single 110v circuit.



So I will rig up a plug on it and plug her in.

I put her clothes back on for some photos. Not only is my wife irritated that we ended up with another broken yet even larger espresso machine that takes up more space but she says "you didn't even get a pretty one".

You can decide. I think it's super 80's and I like it.



The counter it is sitting on is 24" wide. It's a big machine for a 110v Single Group.







I'm sure this is a derivative of some other design. Our Faema compact portafilter fit right in so it appeared not be weird. It gave me the confidence to ask the wife to stop by the local parts guy and buy a screen and gasket for it. I'll stick those in tonight.



Compared to the Astoria, the construction methods are quite different. The frame on the Futurmat is galvanized/cadmium plated which is great for longevity. Those CMA machines can basically disintegrate under the grouphead if used long and hard.

The frame is also riveted and welded. If it's good enough for a bridge, it should hold up here. However, the front stainless panel holding the gauge and power switch IS riveted on meaning you can't remove/replace it easily. This may get bolted if I need to remove it. I already did it to the brain box mount because you couldn't get to the autofill solenoid with it installed.

Parts of it are built like a tank. Even the stainless drip tray and the cup warmer inserts are of a substantially thicker material than the ones on the Astoria.

Consistent with the Astoria, the wiring is laid willy-nilly on top of hot surfaces and a number of them are burnt through. Do they not understand the relationship between heat and plastics in the espresso machine industry? Did the proprietary ribbon cable for the dosing controls look good draped over the grouphead?

Anyway, I digress.

[djmonkeyhater]

OOPS.

Read the email from Spain and wired the plug on. No water connected, just wanted to make sure the machine was more than a large paperweight.

Stick the plug in the wall and flip the switch.

POOF.

All of the lights in the basement are out.

Did I just start a paperweight business?

[ByronA]

LOL, I only just saw this or I would have tried warning you before. If you do the math, a standard 15 Amp 110 V circuit doesn't provide enough "wattage" to power the element, pump, and electronics. So, when your machine came on, it tried to draw more than 15 Amps and blew the circuit breaker.

That is why they use 2 110 Volt lines. That means two independant breakers at the box. The implication to me is that you need both lines to provide enough current. Add a second circuit, and between the two of them, you have 30 Amps of current to power your machine. What I don't understand is why they would do it that way, and not just set up a standard 30 Amp 110 volt plug.

I would suggest you get an electrician in to do your wiring for you. Much safer.

Hopefully I am right about the above, and it wasn't caused by an internal dead short.

[djmonkeyhater]

Yanked the cord from the wall it and left the basement. Ate dinner. Drank a bit.

I confused brown and blue. Smart, I know. Read the instructions like 10x, triple-checked my work or so I thought. Then connected it as a direct short.

Let's see if it survived. I swap the blue and brown and turn it back and forth. The keypad lights come on but nothing else happens. I push buttons randomly, some solenoids click and the pump spins. Hmmm. Maybe it is my lucky day.

I connect water and manually fill the boiler.

Turn the switch to position 1 and the heater clicks on. No leaks so far. The brewing and auto-frother keypads are blinking continuously. It seems to be warming up. Two of the keypad buttons work - continuous brew and auto-frother cleaning function. Continuous brew fires up the motor and sprays water all over the basement. Without a screen on it, the water seems to leave the head horizontally. This is a happy spraying moment for the workbench. Pressure seems to be slowly building and the gauges eventually move.



This is a pretty nicely made screen. Apparently the water shoots out of the center of the slotted deal in the bottom of the grouphead, hits the solid part in the center of this and distributes itself evenly. The Astoria and Faema I have use spiraling hole patterns above the screen.



It works. At least the water isn't shooting all over me anymore.



The anti-syphon valve is on top of the sight-glass. It emitted some steam during the warm up. I like the little mechanical differences from machine to machine. The light in the middle of it is interesting. There's a diode or something in there so maybe it's more important than it looks.



I'll be damned. It took months to get here with the other machine. MONTHS. Pressure gauge is in the green, the pressurestat is cycling off and on. Steam and water valves feel a little dry but work with no leaks. Even the autofrother will kick out some spray.



How safe is this? Two steam pressure relief valves. Anybody know why? I thought that one might be for the thermosyphon but it's so close to the other one. Could it be into another chamber? Is it just doubly safe?

Still no autofill and no other buttons work. But technically, I could make coffee with it.

[djmonkeyhater]

The long road of electrical gremlins in a semi-automatic machine.

Now that I can run power reliably to the machine, I've been trying to understand the electrical system.

What I know:
1) I do not know if the machine was fully operational when I bought it in that dude's garage at night for nickels on the dollar. He didn't either. The wires had been pulled off of the light behind the sight glass leading me to believe that there was some sort of diagnostics underway related to autofill.
2) I did connect it improperly and turn it on.
3) Pump, element, pressurestat, 3-way solenoid, autofrother cleaning solenoid all are working.
4) I'm assuming the control pads are fine. The lights blink and at least one switch on them works.

I will try and understand the wiring harness as best I can to make sure that there isn't a bad connection or damaged wire creating the problem before I take the seemingly inevitable leap of looking for a new motherboard. (If someone has one they don't need, feel free to come forward!)



There are a lot (14) of wires that come off of the power switch. On my Astoria, there are 3. The penalties of technology. Continually funny to me are the lengths to which these guys will go to compensate for poor locating, IMHO. i.e. check out the stainless shelf keeping the auto-frother from dripping on the power switch. I still think it might have been easier to put the power switch somewhere else. The second bummer with this location is that it's virtually inaccessible and hard to see, especially the inboard parts.



The inboard parts of the powerswitch sit in there deep. You can also see the rivets holding it all together, and the way the drip tray interlocks with the backsplash. I'd complain about the rivets here, but this stainless panel has other stuff (gauges, 3-way shroud) connected to it so I'll consider it part of the frame. Removing it could have offered me a great deal more access to the wires.



Here she is. I like that is says CPU on it. That means it must cost at least $500. Given the frequency with which the Gicar autofill boxes fail, it seems plausible that it would fail in this configuration. Maybe it has to do with the primacy/frequency of it's function or that it seeks a ground in order to open a switch? I'm not an electrical engineer so feel free to weigh in. I can see the mini-solenoids clicking when I hit switches.



The battleground.



EUREKA or something like that. Or not.




I thought this might solve all of my problems. HA!
- It's mold damaged! Of course it is! Why wouldn't it be?
- It won't come off of the body panel because then I could scan it and annotate it.
- It might just be enough information to drive me crazy.
- It's for 1, 2, and 3 group machines. You have to guess at what yours might have.
- Funny english and hard to understand "number to circuit" connections. Pilot? Level spring = the boiler level sensor rod.
- Very little detail of the brain board.

It is better than nothing? Yes, lest I sound ungrateful.



A tidy little weld holding the angle iron frame together. You notice these things when you've been staring at a half dozen wires for 40 minutes expecting that at some point one of them will whisper "I'm the hot leg for the autofill solenoid but you can't see that because the diode in the "pilot" lamp isn't working."

[ByronA]

For what its worth, you most likely didn't blow anything as a result of your power mistake. The short would likely have taken the easiest electrical route, which happens to be where you connected them on the power plug before tripping the breaker...although i have seen very strange failures from shorts to ground. So, like I say, you likely didn't kill the machine from doing that.

You say you see relays move when you press the buttons. Does this only happen on the one working button, or on more than that? It could be a clue to follow through to figure out what it is doing...or supposed to be doing.

Good luck