Researching upgrade choices from my Rancilio Silvia

[mcmmd]

Hi. I am new to this site. I love espresso, grinding and brewing my own. I have been making espresso almost daily for about 15 years, after I got hooked while living in Spain. I am not a technophile but I do like gadgets. I need help choosing my new machine. Thanks for reading and replying.

I have been researching machines to upgrade from my Rancilio Silvia. The machines I have narrowed down to are the La Spaziale Vivaldi II Single Group Dual Boiler (I like the idea of direct connect but it just may not be for me due to my "physical plant limitations"), Valentina Semi Automatic Espresso Machine by Grimac Royal Falcon (maybe too tall but a could work), or finally the Andreja Premium by Quick Mill. I have done my homework so I think I understand the advantages/disadvantages between these three machines.

Then while surfing the net, I stumbled across this very sharp looking machine, Laranzato Casa Semi-Commercial Automatic Espresso Machine. It is a pour over with a very large reservoir, HX and a E-61 grouphead. Has anyone had any experience with this machine and/or the company (Zaccardis) that sells it? They have a 30 day return policy.

BTW, I an a coffee nut but don't plan on making this a full time hobby or second career. I want to enjoy my coffee but not let it take over my life. That being said any tips or advice are welcome. Thanks, SEP

[2xlp]

That machine seems to most-closely rival the expobar pulser, is a 'lesser known brand' in these circles, and is at the price-point of some well regarded machines with positive usage histories.

Personally, I'd suggest this:
1. Forget that machine.
2. If you haven't already, look at the Izzo Alex and Wega Lyra. They're in the same class of machines you're looking at.

[HB]

I have done my homework so I think I understand the advantages/disadvantages between these three machines.

Then while surfing the net, I stumbled across this very sharp looking machine, Laranzato Casa Semi-Commercial Automatic Espresso Machine...

Sorry, I've heard of Laranzato and browsed their product line, but have no hands on experience with the machine and have read very few reports; googling Laranzato+espresso+machine yielded only a couple vendors and others looking for information like yourself (they had no luck).

To elaborate on 2xlp's points, there's certainly some comfort in buying a popular espresso machine with a proven track record - or at least one whose faults are well known. In some respects, the E61 HXs are very much alike. But when you look at them closely, details in features and performance emerge that may or may not matter to you. The three other choices you noted (Vivaldi II / S1, La Valentina, Andreja Premium) have been reviewed on HB, so you have a strong basis for comparison.

On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with buying lesser-known equipment from a trustworthy vendor. I chose La Valentina with almost no background information (my consumer review on CG was the first posted) and it turned out well. The key difference was the strong track record of the vendor (1st-line) and not the equipment per se; after talking with Jim on several occasions, I was convinced it was a good choice.

I've vaguely heard of Zaccardis and seen their advertising, but that's about it. Given that espresso equipment is currently a specialized purchase, the after sales support (and not just the return policy) is a key consideration. Browsing their website, it's clear that coffee isn't their only passion (e.g., they sell electronic gadgets, food gifts, shavers, jewelry like this lovely Heart Shaped Red Andesine-Labradorite Pendant in 14kt Yellow Gold). Personally I prefer vendors who have a dedicated focus on espresso equipment and strong online presence.

[mcmmd]

Thanks for the input so far. Really this is what I expected for the most part. I have done business with 1st line and they are great. I also have spoken at length on several occasions with Chris Coffee and they too are great. I guess buying the Laranzato Casa from Zaccardis would be like buying a Stella Scooter from a Home Depot vs buying a Vespa from a real Vespa dealer ( maybe only scooter nuts will follow that analogy). I guess if they would throw in the lovely Heart Shaped Red Andesine-Labradorite Pendant in 14kt Yellow Gold, gratis, it might be worth it!

I have looked closely at the Alex Izzo and I liked it at first but I am daunted by the size and mass of the thing. Comments on this point are welcome. I will check out the Wega Lyra. I tried to look into Wegas but have has a hard time finding vendors?

Thanks, SEP

[TomP10]

It seems to me you need to identify how much you value (1) a plumbed-in machine vs. pour-over and (2) HX vs double-boiler. Once you figure that out, you can narrow your potential machines.

If you spend some time reading home-barista.com and coffeegeek.com you will see that plumbed-in/rotary machines are strongly favored. I don't recall ever reading someone indicating they wish they could go back to pour-over/vibe pump machine. The choice between an HX and double boiler receives far more mixed responses. Some (like Dan Kehn) seem to prefer the flexibility of an HX machine. (His article at http://www.home-barista.com/hx-love.html is pretty useful for learning the basics of HX temp management.) Others, most notably those participating at the LaSpaz www site ( http://www.rimpo.org/ ) , provide compelling support for the convenience of a double boiler.)


You might want to check-out a fairly new machine from Chris Coffee -- the Alex (
http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/home/espresso/alex ) . It can be switched into pour-over or direct plumb mode, has a rotary pump, and is an HX machine that looks like it has similar parts to the Andreja.

- Tom

[mcmmd]

Ok after searching the usual channels and sites again, I come up empty on the Wega. Coffee Geek reviews it and espresso-parts.com used to sell it..?, but now it is not listed on their site. What about the Grimac Uno? I found it on a site from NY Espresso Systems (?). It looks like the La Valentina but in a different box? Right now I am leaning towards the Vivaldi II, but the direct connect, though I love the idea of the convenience, is holding me up. I bet you guys think I am all over the map on this, thanks for your input and patience, SEP

[edwa]

I don't own a Vivaldi II so I hope this isn't misinformation. But, with convenience in mind, isn't there a problem putting the machine on a universal timer so that it is warmed up and ready for you first thing in the morning? I believe you have to buy a special ... expensive... timer. Forgive me if I'm wrong on this.

What I'm trying to highlight is I find for my own use a timer indispensable considering that warm up takes 30 - 60 minutes on a lot of these machines. Mine goes on at 4:30 am so I can get a shot before the gym.

Though tempted to pimp my own ride, I'll resist as your short list is very solid. However, I will add that I've done business with 1st-line for years and can only give praise.

[2xlp]

grimac-
espressoparts was carrying the Mia, you might find some info on that. it was also listed on a buyer review here. you can compare those specs to the grimac you found. on the picture alone, the uno looks like a better looking Mia.

wega-
sorry, i hadn't read the update on this posting: http://www.home-barista.com/forum...ed-help-t2574.html
someone found the lyra in a 1 year old catalog for $1150. its since much higher.

gotta love how prosumer machines have EXPLODED in price over the past few years. i remember when mazzers were $300 new

you've done your homework, so I'm just trying to give you more options and help you make your own decision. i'm not going to give pros and cons of any machine - you seem to understand that.

what i will say is this:

a) you'll find that a handful of vendors come up in conversation a lot, and with quite positive reviews. keep that in mind vs ordering from someone, getting a box destroyed by UPS or broken from the factory, and trying to cut through customer service on multiple fronts to rectify the situation.

b) the LARGE majority of $700+ consumer machines that everyone talks about use standard parts , and are really just re-configurations of one another with slight differences. The boilers tend to be custom, but you'll typically see one of 5 pressure valves , an ulka pump, one of 3 solenoids, etc. that said , aside from being able to compare machines on that level , you can also correlate unknown models to one another as well. ie: most HX have a 1400watt heating element + a 1.7l boiler. some have a 1.3 or 2.0 l boiler , and some have a 1500watt element.

c) many machines are rebadged. some vendors rebadge a domestically available machine and charge more or less ( i've seen a bunch of marcuzzi badges on expobars and ascasos ). some distributors or mfgs rebadge a machine when shipping overseas ( i believe the valentina is a la scala butterfly - someone can correct me )

truth be told, all of these machines are a little big.

[jesawdy]

( i believe the valentina is a la scala butterfly - someone can correct me )

The La Scala is it's own beast, and not one that is very common state-side. It in fact may be a machine the OP might consider looking into. You can find it here, http://vanelis.com/ and the manufacturer info here, http://www.espressomachines-it.co...fe_butterfly1.html

But as was stated, MOST machines are a rehash of the same parts, and while that doesn't necessarily imply one will be as good as the next (and most likely not), if you are the adventurous sort, you might try a less popular machine knowing that you SHOULD be able to find replacement parts, etc. BUT, since most machines tend to be of the same internals, all the MORE reason to chose a vendor that will provide you better support. In other words, all things being equal, I would choose a dedicated and committed vendor (and perhaps, barring that, a manufacturer that has good distributorship here in the US).

All of the machines you have mentioned look great... I think you would be happy with any that you have considered thus far. A phone conversation with a vendor (if you can get them) might help you make a decision one way or another.

(As an aside, 2xlp, with the dollar being as weak as it is... all of these imported machines are going to get more expensive as time moves on)

[DaveC]

I have looked closely at the Alex Izzo and I liked it at first but I am daunted by the size and mass of the thing. Comments on this point are welcome. I will check out the Wega Lyra. I tried to look into Wegas but have has a hard time finding vendors?

Thanks, SEP

I have an Alex and it's a large machine, but actually not too bad and compares favourable with other rotary pumped machines, but with one big advantage, it can be used as a pourover with it's internal water tank, or plumbed in. I suppose one thing puzzles me quite a lot, why Chris Coffee didn't get the Vivi in as well. The baby sister (Izzo Vivi) has the same great build quality, but slightly better looking, fair bit smaller (can't be plumbed in), but if size is a problem the Vivi would fit the bill. It's a Vibe pump machine, BUT one of the quietest vibe pump machines I have come across.

Might be worth checking if Chris Coffee is considering stocking the Izzo Vivi MK II, or if they would put in a special order for one to come with their next shipment. All the important parts on the Vivi are pretty much the same as the Alex (pressurestat, heating element, group, autofill solenoid, Gicar Box etc..), the pumps just a standard ULKA EX unit.

Good luck

oh a review of the MK1, not the improved MKII can be read here together with reviews for many other machines.

I wrote all the reviews for them, but as an independent reviewer (they did not edit or try to influence my reviews), but of course wrote the reviews with a consideration of the prices of each machine (expecting more of the expensive machines). Please remember with certain machines e.g. the Andreja Premium, the US specification may be different to the UK one.

[HB]

The choice between an HX and double boiler receives far more mixed responses. Some (like Dan Kehn) seem to prefer the flexibility of an HX machine.

I don't have a strong preference for either, though I agree with many that the convenience of a double boiler is a big plus.

On the other hand, given the pinpoint accuracy of an E61 fitted with an thermocouple, managing an HX machine's brew temperature is simply not a big deal to me. If a home barista has trouble mastering temperature management, then that's the least of their problems. Diagnosing the cause of extraction problems and taste defects, for example, is far more difficult (and yes, I sometimes have bad channel days).

[lparsons21]

I have an Alex and it's a large machine, but actually not too bad and compares favourable with other rotary pumped machines, but with one big advantage, it can be used as a pourover with it's internal water tank, or plumbed in. I suppose one thing puzzles me quite a lot, why Chris Coffee didn't get the Vivi in as well. The baby sister (Izzo Vivi) has the same great build quality, but slightly better looking, fair bit smaller (can't be plumbed in), but if size is a problem the Vivi would fit the bill. It's a Vibe pump machine, BUT one of the quietest vibe pump machines I have come across.

Might be worth checking if Chris Coffee is considering stocking the Izzo Vivi MK II, or if they would put in a special order for one to come with their next shipment. All the important parts on the Vivi are pretty much the same as the Alex (pressurestat, heating element, group, autofill solenoid, Gicar Box etc..), the pumps just a standard ULKA EX unit.

Good luck

oh a review of the MK1, not the improved MKII can be read here together with reviews for many other machines.

I wrote all the reviews for them, but as an independent reviewer (they did not edit or try to influence my reviews), but of course wrote the reviews with a consideration of the prices of each machine (expecting more of the expensive machines). Please remember with certain machines e.g. the Andreja Premium, the US specification may be different to the UK one.

There are also a couple of reviews of the Alex on coffeegeek, one of which I wrote. It is about the US version 2 of the machine I got from Chris Coffee. As to size, I don't think the Alex is significantly bigger than other machines in this class. It is a beauty that produces an excellent brew when fed properly.

[Genesis]

What drove me to plumb-in is temperature management on a HX machine. Pour-over means lots of refills with the flush cycles you need to use. Ironically, unless you are looking into the Brewtus, dual-boiler seems to mean rotary pump, and thus plumb-in. Once you take the leap....

I gave SERIOUS consideration to the LaSpaz. In the end the Vetrano won out. My view of it came down to something like this:

1. LaSpaz is not "really" $1900. Its really about $2100, because to use a timer you have to buy theirs, and its not cheap. The Vetrano is $1400 and will work with any good timer. If you intend to leave the machine on ALL the time then its a $500 difference, otherwise its a $700 difference. Note that this isn't as crazy as it sounds, as the LaSpaz can be put in "brew boiler only" mode which cuts power consumption down significantly - but you have to do it.

2. You can get the same sort of temperature management with a HX as you can with the LaSpaz. It requires more than pushing a button, but you can get there. Once you figure out what you like for a given coffee, its not hard to hit the same temperature any number of times in sequence. Absolute numbers are nice if someone gives them to you, but if you find your own preferred temperature you still go through the same process. IMHO, mostly a wash.

3. The LaSpaz is arguably more "cute". Value in that? Up to you.

Getting any of these machines "dialed in" is going to take you some coffee and effort, with the issue being the clown on the handle end of the PF. Count on it. I'm darn happy now, a couple of weeks into owning my Vetrano - but the first couple of days were darn frustrating!

Service and support are a big deal. If you're not going to get that, then IMHO you need to get a BIG (like 20% or more) discount to make up for the frustration you may end up having to deal with in exchange.

[mcmmd]

Thanks to everyone for all the very helpful comments and insight. I am going to think and prioritize my needs and wishes and I will pass on my final thoughts and decisions. I did want to mention a couple of other things. I finally found the Wega Lyra at espressoparts.com. It was buried in their site. Their price is $1895 for the rotary/plumbed version and $1800 for the vibe/pour-over. Sounds like an easy choice between those two if I can overcome my plumbing limitations. I thought I saw someone say they priced the Wega for ~$1300 in 12/06! Wow that is what I call inflation!



I also got to look at the Izzo Vivi on a UK site. Yes it is nice but I think I would go with the Alex. I really seem to be favoring the rotary pump.



The other limitation with my set up is cabinet height. My cabinet has a lower lip that is 17" exactly from the counter. Behind that lip is another 3/4" clearance. With that being said this is what my current set up choices are:

Grinder: Mazzer Mini with the smaller hopper. I think it will just barely clear my cabinet but the be ok underneath. I will slide it out to fill it. Can anyone confirm this? 1st line says the Mazzer Mini (short hopper) is 17" and Chris Coffee says 16 1/2".

Machine front runners: LaSpaziale Vivaldi II, Alex Izzo, Wega Lyra Rotary, Grimac Mia (but I am still looking at the other options, eg LaValentina, Quick Mill, Vibiemme, etc.)



Anyone care to comment on the Astra Gourmet or other Astra machines?

Thanks again, SEG

[Everman]

Since you mention the Valentina semi auto, there is also a version with a lever and all polished stainless steel at 1st-line, I think chris can also special order them at chriscoffee.com. This is the machine I got about two months ago and it's fantastic. If I could do plumbed in and swing the higher price, I think the wega lyra would be my choice there, I'd probably upgrade the element too if I had the power outlet to support it.

[erics]

The Mazzer Mini (doserless) is 16-1/2" to the OUTER top edge of the hopper cover. As the hopper cover has a slight curvature, the center of the top is just a tad shy of 17". The doser version appears identical in this regard.

You said you were leaning towards a rotary pump and also had concerns about overcoming your plumbing limitations. If you put those two together, that equals an Izzo Alex whose vendor has a stellar reputation. This way you can avoid the "pressure" of plumbing-in immediately and polish those plumbing skills.

A visit to Chris' Coffee website and his "showroom" tour might give you a better idea of the size of these Silvia upgrades but be forewarned - these machines dwarf Silvia.

Eric S.

[mcmmd]

I looked at all the machines on the Chris Coffee site in the showroom and they clearly looked bigger than the Silvia but not too big. I laid out a "template" on my counter and felt like the larger sizes would be manageable. I was pretty much decided on the Alex for all the reasons mentioned i.e. rotary pump with either pour-over or direct connect, E-61 and HX. Well, then I was in Dallas and ran across this shop called Espresso RMI. They had a machine with the Marcuzzi name on it that looked something like some of the more commonly seen stainless steel, E-61 group machines. It just looked really large. All the sudden I was having second thoughts about the Alex.

Also before the Alex I had been thinking about the Livia 90. They had two machines one with the Bezzera label and one with Marcuzzi that were Livia's without gauges. I am glad I didn't buy a Livia because my Silvia looks and is way more sturdy and quality than those machines!

They did have a Cimbali Jr, which of course I like, but it is also just a little to large and just beyond my upper price limit!

Now that I have replaced the vibe pump in my Silvia with an Ulka 52 watt unit and have it back up and brewing, I don't feel the urgency I did a week ago. I am definitely still going to upgrade but really want to be sure I get the right machine.

Wow! As I was typing this message I went to look for the Marcuzzi machines and I figured out that Espresso RMI is in fact Espresso Time on the internet! (http://www.espressotime.com/)! Their web site looks much more impressive than the actual store! I am kind of blown away because I walked out of the shop slightly underwhelmed! I was in kind of a hurry and I almost bought a Marcuzzi grinder and the Livia like Bezzera! But I just felt too rushed so fortunately I think my better judgement prevailed!

Still searching and confused in Austin, but things are starting to clear up a little.

[edwa]

Ohhh, I don't know, maybe I should pimp my ride as I don't see it among your now widening choices.

I'm glad someone corroborated my comment on the LaSpaz timer, I was worried about muddying the waters.

As a Silvia upgrader I have been very happy with the Fiorenzato Volante. Its footprint is smaller than alot of Hxs, it's a rotary pump that needs direct connect and has the option to plumb the drip tray. At first I didn't plumb the drip tray but recently I hooked it up and it works even with a 3 ft semi-level run from the machine to the sink along the counter. Chris Tacy has done a thorough review of this machine and if you want more pictures you go to http://www.home-barista.com/forum...er-look-t2428.html

I feel the need to highlight and support a comment by Genesis. You will use a fair amount of water so if you are purchasing a pour-over remember to leave yourself room to gain access. Yes, you've been doing that with Silvia but these machines are bulkier and heavier. Some, like mine have suction cup feet that can make it more difficult to pull out a machine from under a cabinet.

Later today when I'm back at my other computer I will try to add a photo of the drip tray waste line on the counter.

What was the name of that Austin coffee shop near the river, Flipnotics or something or other?

[Genesis]

Here's another point to consider.

The Vetrano (and Andreja Premium) has an insulated boiler. I don't believe the LaSpaz does. The argument is always that the "cup tray" heat is a "good" side effect. That's unadulaterated Starbucks charcoal extraction.

First, I have gravitated to the Bodum double-wall shot glasses for my espresso cups. Guess what - they don't need a preheat of any substance. They keep the drink nice and hot for as long as it takes me to drink them (10-15 minutes or so), which is plenty good enough without preheating. The glass has very low thermal mass (its very thin) and the other wall is insulated by the airspace. If you try to drink the LIQUID espresso straight out of the tap after it goes in them, you WILL burn yourself (that's why we go for the crema first, right? )

Those glasses are totally inappropriate for a commercial setting (you'd break way too many of them) other than, perhaps, as a "holding place" for a shot that will be used to build a Cappa or Latte, but for the HOME they're awesome. I can't imagine anything better, to be honest.

So with that said I want an insulated boiler because while in the winter the extra heat is fine, in the summer I get to pay for it twice - once to heat it, and again to remove it with my AC. No thank you.

This definitely played into my selection process.....

[mcmmd]

This has been a phenomenally helpful discussion. Thanks to all and thanks to the last two posts from Edwa and Genesis, I now have to seriously consider the Vetrano and the Fiorenzato Volante! Actually it is the later that looks closest to my particular preference. This is of course if I make the jump to plumbed-in. I am also going to look into the Bodum double wall shot glasses. The saga continues.....

Oh yea, now that I have my Ulka 51 watt pump in my 2003 vintage Silvia I need to dial down the brew pressure. Can anyone give me the direct link to instructions for this procedure? I have the old style valve that is not adjustable. Thanks again.