The Reason Rancilio Includes Plastic Tampers with Machines - Page 2

[xtophr]

Look outside your country. Having travelled quite a bit, I'm still startled at how much US citizens are out of synch with the rest of the world, and how nationalist we are about it.

Yes! I am constantly dumbfounded and dismayed about all sorts of things that we, as a Country, do that are really bass-ackward and embarrassingly lame for being such an "advanced" "World leader".

But I really feel that Rancilio's inclusion of the dreaded plastic device simply underscores the need for getting a tamper. Everyone has their fave, as has been stated many times.

Oh, yeah... I follow F1... And Moto GP... And World Superbike...

[RegulatorJohnson]

what are they going to do? ....

put a reg barber in every box?

they do it so you arent left hangin' with nothing to tamp with.

i recently received a la marzocco GB/5 ... it comes with a plastic tamper....albeit one hell of a plastic tamper, but a plastic tamper none the less.

jon

[shadowfax]

Does anyone have a pic of this LM plastic tamper that is superior to all the silly 56mm tampers that come with lesser machines?

I actually really liked the coffee scoop/tamper combo that came with my Vetrano. After I cut off the piston with my Dremel and sanded it down (and later drilled a hole in the end to hang it on a hook), I had a nice little coffee scoop that I use more often than the cheap pressed stainless steel one that I have--plastic though it is, it's a much nicer scoop--flexes rather than bends.

[mitchellb]

Courtesy of marzoccoman.com, where this beautiful plastic tamper can be yours for the low, low price of 10.60


edit: actually they're out of stock.. :-/

[shadowfax]

I should have tried that. Thanks. Wow, that's a pretty awesome tamper. I would still buy an EPNW Compressore or an Espressocraft tamper, myself, but that's a tamper that could last you for a good while if, say, you just blew $2k on an espresso machine and $1k on a grinder, and your wife wasn't, you know, in the mood to listen to how you need an $80 tamper...

[RegulatorJohnson]

2K for a new marzocco complete with plastic tamp?!?!?!

you just got one hell of a deal.

jon

[shadowfax]

Sorry, I was implying that it would be a great idea if Rancilio, Quickmill, Elektra, Isomac, etc. put this type of tamper--a beefy plastic tamper that fit the basket of the machine it was bundled with--that we'd all be in better shape waiting on the WAF to go back up to include a nice tamper in the budget. Alas, none, it seems, is as righteous as La Marzocco. Someone should suggest that they make a home machine...

[Randy G.]

........ I opted to take the question straight to the horse's mouth, so to speak, in hopes of receiving the real answer. The answer came today via email, straight from the VP of Sales for Rancilio.......

The email came by way of the Rancilio VP of Sales.

.......Rancilio goes on to state that they studied that the tamper can be a very personal tool and there are many choices for consumers. Many upgrade, again according to Rancilio, to the tampers that are $30 to $50. The email stated that the company "would not want to add a $20 tamper and still have consumers not be happy with it" (the tamper).

Furthermore, the email states that the commercial machines (price figures stated as $2000 up to $12,000) come with plastic tampers too - then the customer decides what type of tamping he/she will be doing.

Rancilio states that cost is a factor that needs to be considered for the machine. Everything added will eventually have a cost effect in the marketplace. The company tries to stay competitive while producing the best quality machine as possible. The email goes on with the claim of absorbing some costs such as the portafilter that changed to the commercial one while sustaining the current price.
....................
Finally, the email ends with facts that Rancilio is primarily a commercial machine manufacturer and as such, that is their focus.............

I came upon this thread late... just found it as a matter of fact, so I dug back to the above-quoted OP, and I am amazed at what a load of naturally-produced, organic soil additive that letter from the VP of Sales for Rancilio is. I had to go back and make sure that it wasn't posted on 4/1/06. The excuses read like getting shot by the police, then they tell you how much better off you are with a bullet in you because the added weight in your behind lowers your center of gravity so you can run and jump better now.. OK, not quite, but....

In my opinion, the fact that the tamper is made of plastic does not even enter into the discussion— It might be the third point of complaint in order of importance. They need to be confronted as to why the thing isn't even remotely close to 58mm! I think it is included so that they can say it is included, as that is, by far, it's greatest benefit: "Includes Tamper."

Cost factor!? What would the additional cost have been to add the few additional mm's of plastic to make it fit the basket? 'Not wanting to include a $20 tamper?' How about including a properly-fitting $3.50 tamper? I liked my Silvia, and it served me well for quite some time, but reading that letter from Rancilio USA makes me glad I no longer own a Rancilio product.

My pull on this is that I think that some injection molding company already was making those for some other machine(s), Rancilio contracted with them to purchase them in large lots (50,000 at a time?), and it saved them the cost to create the molds for a proper-sized tamper, and they never gave it another serious thought.

[Elbasso]

Do not get tempted by that LM tamper! It sticks to the coffee so the polishing move destroys the surface of a carefully prepared puck.

[kahvedelisi]

Cost factor!? What would the additional cost have been to add the few additional mm's of plastic to make it fit the basket? 'Not wanting to include a $20 tamper?' How about including a properly-fitting $3.50 tamper? I liked my Silvia, and it served me well for quite some time, but reading that letter from Rancilio USA makes me glad I no longer own a Rancilio product

Reading your rection towards Rancilio company about this issue, made me think that your Vibiemme came with a better tamper, at least $20 worth and "proper sized" ... No?

My pull on this is that I think that some injection molding company already was making those for some other machine(s), Rancilio contracted with them to purchase them in large lots (50,000 at a time?), and it saved them the cost to create the molds for a proper-sized tamper, and they never gave it another serious thought.

Rancilio company is the only one doing this OR there are other well known italian espresso machine producers giving exact same plastic scoop/tamper. Lets think again... While thinking... did it ever occur to you almost all italian grinders with tamper attachment have the same "problem". Or is it really a problem for them? For instance Cimbali machines have 58mm portafilter but cimbali grinder's tamper attachment 54mm sized (same with MD and Mazzer grinders etc) and most of the italian baristas use this attachments for tamping. Pushing all coffee grounds all the way down, tamping with 30lb force is not an italian practice. In general they prefer smaller sized tampers and tamp with 8-10lb force. Maybe they don't want to push down all those particles for some good/logical reason, who knows

I still believe it's not machine producer's job to include tampers. People argue that they pay $2000 - $4000 to these machines, so the producers should add a $20-$40 worth tamper... Well, what will be our reaction if producers use this argument and say "you pay $2000 - $4000 for a home setup then $20-$40 extra shouldn't be a problem".

If you were to buy a ferrari or a porsche or a lamborghini, be assured they won't come with a full tank and/or 4 extra tire

[sweaner]

what are they going to do? ....

put a reg barber in every box?

Uh, yes? The tampers included are ludicrous. For the money these machines cost, and because one needs a good tamper for the machines to work properly, at least a $20 stainless tamper should be included.

[espressoed]

Wow. I'll bet none of these machine manufacturers have any idea of the level of hardship they've caused through their callous disregard for "the little things."

[Randy G.]

Wow. I'll bet none of these machine manufacturers have any idea of the level of hardship they've caused through their callous disregard for "the little things."

The fact is that not everyone who buys a Silvia is as knowledgeable, well-read, nor as well educated in the ways of espresso as the members of this forum. I have answered more than a few messages from people who are using a Silvia and cannot get a decent pull, only to find out that they are using the tamper that was included with Silvia. It is reasonable for those people to assume that the tamper, included with such an expensive machine, was designed to work with their machine.

The instructions should state: "The tamper included in this box will cause the user many frustrating sessions trying to create good espresso. Continued use will cause you to place the machine in the garage and never use it again. For drinkable results we recommend purchasing a tamper that is the correct size for this machine."

The tamper should have a label on it: "Do not use tool. Discard immediately."

[Randy G.]

Rancilio company is the only one doing this OR there are other well known italian espresso machine producers giving exact same plastic scoop/tamper. Lets think again... While thinking... did it ever occur to you almost all italian grinders with tamper attachment have the same "problem".

"BUT MOM! Everyone else is doing it! WHY CAN'T I?"
Two [or more] wrongs make a right, now?

I still believe it's not machine producer's job to include tampers.

No one said it is their responsibility to do so, but why bother to include one that doesn't work properly?

If you were to buy a ferrari or a porsche or a lamborghini, be assured they won't come with a full tank and/or 4 extra tire

At least the tires ARE THE CORRECT SIZE!

Either include a proper sized tamper or do not include one at all. How difficult is that to understand?
It doesn't have to be a $20 or $30 tamper. A $4.50 piece of plastic OF THE CORRECT DIAMETER would be more than sufficient.

[mitchellb]

I don't agree with the argument, "if you're paying 600 dollars for a machine they should put a Reg Barber tamper in the box".. after all the machine costs 600 dollars because they use expensive materials and intellectual property to make that machine.. it is a 600 dollar machine, and it should come with what it comes with.. If it was a 650 dollar machine than it ought to come with a reg... but you get my drift.

I do agree, though, that the tamper it comes with (and the double basket for that matter) is ridiculous. It does give a person with no idea how to use the machine the idea that that would be a suitable item for operating an espresso machine..

The flip side of that argument, though, is that you can pull a great shot with the fake plastic tamper. It isn't impossible to use that or the spring loaded unit on the front of a grinder to make a good shot of espresso..

to no contradict myself anymore I will stop with the conclusion that rancilio should really fabricate a plastic tamper that is at least 58 mm in diameter and bigger (much like the LM plastic tamper) to include with their espresso machines.. AFAIK it would not break the bank, and would be a decent, usable item comparable to the machine the user is getting. 4000 dollar machines should really be sold with aluminum tampers that fit their respective baskets and so on.. It's worth charging them extra so that I never have to go to a coffee shop where they have a legitimate excuse that they didn't know you were supposed to tamp ever again.

[mitchellb]

A $4.50 piece of plastic OF THE CORRECT DIAMETER would be more than sufficient.

end of argument.

[kahvedelisi]

"correct diameter" according to who? Obviously italians prefer smaller sizes when it comes to tampers. Higher quality ones? Well I'm using €40 worth official rancilio tamper and it's 57mm diameter, I have to do either SNWE or knock really hard if I want to push down all particles. Btw right me if I'm wrong, all "correct sized" tampers are production of other countries (such as usa, denmark, australia, canada etc)

you all argue about the included tamper's size plus quality and miss the whole point. The point is while we're trying to push, push, push down the annoying coffee particles with correct sized, well built tampers here, italians don't care about theirs there... which reminds me of other countries brewing coffee turkish style and thinking the right practice is "boiling coffee several times" and they do it for no good reason at all.

PS. About tires --> I had a friend who owned a peugeot 205 and an Alfa Romeo, he had changed all 4 tires including steering wheel for better performance.. that's called.. umm.. modification???

[Randy G.]

"correct diameter" according to who? Obviously italians prefer smaller sizes when it comes to tampers.

So what?

BY FAR, the greatest sales Rancilio enjoys for Silvia is in the US. It would then make sense for them to include a tamper for the US market that is in tune with what that market seems to prefer.. a tamper that is a correct match for the portafilter basket in which it will be used, even if it is based on their "wrong" opinion! Why don't you call 5 manufacturers of tampers. Tell them you have a stock Rancilio Silvia with the included portafilters and baskets that came with the machine. Tell them that you don't know the real size. Ask them what size you should order.

Have you even looked at the stupid plastic thing Rancilio calls a tamper that is included with Silvia? Have you measured it? Have you used it? It is so undersized that it is not even close. 57mm would be a preferred size since the Italians cannot seem to make portafilter baskets within reasonable tolerance ranges. The baskets vary quite a bit- enough that a 58mm tamper would not fit in quite a good percentage of them.

Now, the Silvia tamper is not only WAY undersized but the bottom is convex. it will tamp the center of the coffee and then push the coffee out and up the sides of the basket becasue of the large amount of clearance between the tamper and the sides of the basket. Outside of using a square tamper, the Rancilio inclusion is perfect if you enjoy channeling.

Beyond that, I believe that Ferraris still come with tires that are of the proper DIAMETER for the rims on which they fit. Too bad Rancilio cannot pick up on that.

I find your arguments fairly weak. Let me ask you, then- If my basket has an inside diameter of 58mm, what would be the smallest diameter tamper that would give a proper tamp (without having to tamp in circles over and over to get an even compression throughout the basket? Please base your answers with the fact in mind that this forum is a "guide to exceptional espresso." [look up there ^ ]. I would love to hear the results of your testing. Maybe Reg can chime in here was well. He knows something about tampers from what I hear.

I would think that someone like you who owns an espresso machine that sells in the US for close to $2000USD would have a better idea as to the relationship that tamping has on distribution and quality extraction. Maybe your Rancilio Epoca ST1 came with the pod adaptor and this is all moot for you?

[Psyd]

It's been a while, but it seems that perspective has been lost along the way in the past few years, so this bears repeating. The embarrassing things (like F1 no longer hosting an American driver and me using a steamtoy on the road, I've graduated to a lever, TYVM) have been edited.

Look outside your country. Espresso is fairly new to the US, yet, here we are, stating that a tamper is a necessity just because we want one. Having travelled quite a bit, I'm still startled at how much US citizens are out of synch with the rest of the world, and how nationalist we are about it. Simple things like, the most recognised logo world wide? Manchester United. A soccer team. A British soccer team. Most Americans have never heard of them. Ask Americans what they thing the most followed sport worldwide is, and do you think they'd come up with Formula One auto racing? I'd be amazed if one out of ten people could even name one F1 driver. The plasti-crap tamper is a nod to their American consumers so that the machine can be used right out of the box by those that don't own a tamper, and those that already own a tamper don't get charged for a decent one that they don't want.
If this was an American company with an American market base, I'd think about agreeing with you. An Italian company with an international market base, it's nice thing that they included even the plastic one.

[another_jim]

As a point of information. Today was singles day for me. Instead of vaguely waving my EPNW tamper at the basket, I vaguely waved a Rancilio plastic one. There was no detectable decline in the quality of the shot's flow or taste.

The only tamping requirement for 7 gram singles is to make sure the coffee doesn't spill while moving the PF from grinder to grouphead.