Rancilio Silvia vs. high end espresso machines... what is the truth?

[bigstu44]

Hi everybody. Newbie here. Congratulations on a great site! Now, to my question...I've owned Miss Silvia and a Mazzer Super Jolly (new genuine burrs recently fitted) for a few months now. However, I have to say that overall I'm rather disappointed with shot quality.


I fully appreciate how massively important the Barista is. Believe me, I've spent many long hours researching this fine site and implementing everything. I may be over confident in stating this, but I reckon I've pretty much exhausted the technique side. I'm a very methodical person and I really have read everything here-honest That said, I'm completely aware that I may well still be the weak link. However, in the hope of saving more hours and countless beans, please allow me to separate that (for now anyway!) I'm not asking about technique here. I'm asking purely about equipment capability.


I know there's the argument of 'horse before cart' here regarding the separation of barista and equipment but I have seen posts from people who appear well informed questioning the capability of the Silvia. I'd rather find out now just what the Silvias limitations are. I promise, if the answer is well and truly positive in favour of Miss Silvia THEN I'll move onto technique! I'd rather save money anyway But one thing at a time....


Just in case, let's take me out of the equation so there can be a crystal clear answer to my question. In the right hands, is a Silvia/Mazzer Super Jolly really capable of making espressos as good as more high end machines? Remember, we're taking the variables out-no 'depends on this' or 'depends on that' responses please!


I realise the Silvia is finicky. And I realise that many have upgraded for an easier life rather than an infinitely better coffee. However, I'm happy to follow a little finicky procedure if it fulfils two criteria:

1. It is consistent
2. The coffee tastes great

However, my suspicion is that, even with a PID (which I haven't got) these criteria just aren't going to be met by Miss Silvia. Am I right or wrong? I'd love to hear from ex Silvia owners who can separate the 'ease of use' question from the equation. Again, the most important questions to me are:

Does the espresso taste better and is this achieved more consistently?


Thanks in advance

[japa_fi]

Disclaimer: I have silvia with PID and I'm not Ex-silvia owner.

1) PID makes huge difference!
2) If I had knew and had the money then, I'd bought isomac zaffiro (e-61). My friend got one and that machine (perhaps e-61 in general) seems to be very forgiving. I have my rituals with Silvia, get great results (90% thanks to pid, 10% to rituals). yet the same seem to come out from my friend's isomac without all the fuss.

If you are staying with silvia, save yourself from frustration and get the PID. It will rock.

[ChrisC]

I believe the general consensus is, Silvia can pull as good a shot as almost any machine in the right hands. However, it is more 'finicky,' meaning it requires more effort and skill to get those results, and it will not put out those fabulous results as consistently as other, more high-end machines.

I also agree that a PID makes a huge difference, if you do stick with it. Seeing as you've already got Silvia, and you're only a few months in, I'd say stick with it for a while. With a good, regular cleaning routine, your resale value isn't going to drop, and you may discover that you're totally happy with it. And trust me, two months is nothing. I'm borderline OCD, and I was reading this site and CG about 6 hours a day for my first two months (let's just say it was slow at work), and I'm still making big leaps in my skills now, a year later.

[cannonfodder]

My thoughts from another post...

My experience with the entry level machines is more limited than others, but a general observation I have made over time is as follows.

Beginner espresso machines are not, pro espresso machines are not. By that I mean you need to have near pro skills to use an entry level machine while a beginner can easily pull shots on a pro machine. In my opinion, what you are paying for in a 'high end' espresso machine is the machine's ability to reproduce a shot with ease and consistency. An entry level machine and grinder need constant tweaks and adjustments to reproduce the same shot two times. Simply reading a thread on the Silvia temperature surfing voodoo is enough to frighten even me. In stark comparison the routine on my A3 is blissfully simple and the $8K GS3 even simpler than that. Both entry and pro level machines will produce good shots, but how much work do you want to go through to pull that shot? I want to enjoy espresso making and not have it become a chore.

Will the Silvia make good espresso, by all accounts yes. Will it equal the shots from a pro-quality machine, no. I know someone that got rid of 2 PID'd Silvia's because they could not match the clarity of his other machine.

[Randy G.]

A few months with Silvia is a good introduction, but truly mastering a machine can take years. If you make four doubles a day, you are making about as many drinks in a month as a working barista makes in a day. It really does take time. So I agree with you in that that you are being over-confident and are not yet near, nor even close to exhausting the technique side. After seven + years (about 6½ with a Silvia) I am still learning little things that make a difference in the espresso.

Silvia is a finicky mistress. She is very sensitive to dose and distribution. These subjects have been covered on this site as well as on my own (see Chapters 92). One gram too much coffee can make the difference between drinkable and barely palatable.

Next, all machines in Silvia's class are not very good when it comes to temperature control or stability. However you want to look at it, the brew temperature can swing through a range of about 15 to 20 degrees depending on when you hit the brew switch in the heating cycle. You can read a lot about time surfing and temp surfing which are methods of controlling brew temperature, and after playing with those for a while you will see that temperature variance is probably the greatest weakness of the machine. This is why you see so many posts about adding a PID control to this machine. I recommend this for anyone serious about getting the most out of Silvia. If you can't piece the parts together yourself, try the MLG kits as they are of excellent quality, with all wires ready to install, with excellent instructions. I have a review on my website of these kits.

Is the Silvia capable of making espresso as good as some high end machines? Yes. Can it do it every time as well or consistently as a high end machine? No. Those are general answers because any machine is capable of making bad espresso. Silvia is an excellent starter machine because she is affordable and will force you to be vr7 deliberate over all the process. She also has good resale value and is easy to sell. Once you "master" her, what you have learned will transfer over to a more capable machine. Still, you will spend over twice as much to notice any real improvement, and over three times as much to step up to a commercial-quality, highly capable machine. Will that make espresso three times better? No. Welcome to the world of diminishing returns.

Now, the bottom line is the coffee. If you are not having luck with the coffee you are using, try something else for a while. What tastes good at a coffee shop may not mate will with your machine.

I would recommend that you invite a talented, experienced barista over for a dinner and get a lesson or two. When it comes to espresso, some very little changes can make a big difference. Be patient.

[bigstu44]

Thanks for the input so far. Does anyone else have their 'bit' to add? Seems like the barista's getting the blame so far

[HB]

Does anyone else have their 'bit' to add?

I've commented a few times on the Rancilio, e.g., So, the silvia seems to have fallen out of favor?

...I informally think of espresso machines divided into different tiers: entry level, high entry level, prosumer / semi-commercial, commercial. Most of the angst around a purchase decision occurs when the price point of a machine straddles two tiers. Silvia is the case in point: At the peak of its popularity, there was a $400+ spread between its tier (high end entry) and the next tier, prosumer / semi-commercial. Now that spread has narrowed to $250-300. The aggravation of temperature surfing prompts Silvia owners to add a PID, pushing the price within $100 of an HX machine.

That's why I say Silvia hasn't really fallen out of favor, rather others have come into favor. I don't delve into specific comparisons of entry and high entry level equipment (Krups XP4020, Rancilio Silvia, Gaggia Classic / Coffee, Isomac Venus, etc.) simply because my knowledge of them is limited; instead, this site focuses on the prosumer / semi-commercial tier with occasional dabbling in the commercial tier.

And more generally to Randy's assertion that learning with Silvia is time well spent in The problem is on the handle side of the portafilter:

I will also disagree with the assertion that time spent on Silvia is well invested. Let's face facts: It's a fussy machine with a mountain of research behind it. But someone starting from scratch on the next level machine (essentially every machine reviewed to-date on this site except Silvia) would have better results in a shorter amount of time with less frustration.

Furthermore, I'm puzzled by the popularity of a PID'd Silvia as a first-time purchase. It may make sense for those who already have one and wish to free themselves of the temperature surfing routine, or for those willing to put a kit together themselves on the cheap. But dropping $600 on a Silvia and then investing even more for a PID kit when the total cost is within a hair's breath of an entry level E61 heat exchanger espresso machine? I don't get it.

[mogogear]

No blame really Stu,

Just slow your expectations down a bit. All things that require muscle memory( edit: sorry I am lever head), flushing ,timing, development of routine and getting to know the specific quirks of your machine just take a while. Don't beat your self up-

The really great nugget in the other posts for me was to take a couple more months and slow down adjustments and then see where you are at. That will double your experience in the saddle and see where you are. There are so many things to change that you can't get a base line on what is having which effect if you are busily changing many minute details day to day.

So I would say don't spend any money yet. See if you can access someone to try out your machine - or reach out to someone near you and see if you might try their machine.... just a thought. All your learning on the Silvia- as has been stated elsewhere- Will be usable and helpful on almost any other machine.

Good luck and question the group more!

[Bex]

Furthermore, I'm puzzled by the popularity of a PID'd Silvia as a first-time purchase. It may make sense for those who already have one and wish to free themselves of the temperature surfing routine, or for those willing to put a kit together themselves on the cheap. But dropping $600 on a Silvia and then investing even more for a PID kit when the total cost is within a hair's breath of an entry level E61 heat exchanger espresso machine? I don't get it.

You'd have to get rid of all your experience to figure out why: the major drawbacks of these machines are not readily apparent. You have to immerse yourself in the information to find out beforehand.

When I first began to consider machines, a Silvia was very high on the list. It took a long time and a lot of surfing to realize that there was little point to it for someone like me. Luckily, I had only a tiny budget when I purchased my entry machine. By having a non-PID, huge thermostat swing machine already on my countertop, I've been better-able to evaluate all of this data and information.

Most people thinking about Silvia who get past the recommendations on Amazon will probably hit Mark Prince's temp surfing video next, which makes everything look very, very easy. It takes a significant amount of surfing after that to reach the review here of Alexia, which makes the drawbacks of Silvia very, very clear.

cannonfodder's quote is one of the best summaries of the whole mess. The entry level machines are not very good for the very people they are designed and marketed toward. I am honestly surprised that someone hasn't come out with an entry level machine with PID functionality standard. I suppose the high-end prosumer makers realize the threat this would pose for their business, and the low end makers don't really need to increase sales?

[ntwkgestapo]

Furthermore, I'm puzzled by the popularity of a PID'd Silvia as a first-time purchase. It may make sense for those who already have one and wish to free themselves of the temperature surfing routine, or for those willing to put a kit together themselves on the cheap. But dropping $600 on a Silvia and then investing even more for a PID kit when the total cost is within a hair's breath of an entry level E61 heat exchanger espresso machine? I don't get it.

Dan, that's EXACTLY the reason I didn't go with a Silvia! I was ready to get a VBM when the Gaggia Factory price break hit and made me decide that at that price point I could give the levers (the "dark side" ) a try... IF I didn't like it, then I wasn't out that much!

[Randy G.]

Furthermore, I'm puzzled by the popularity of a PID'd Silvia as a first-time purchase. It may make sense for those who already have one and wish to free themselves of the temperature surfing routine, or for those willing to put a kit together themselves on the cheap. But dropping $600 on a Silvia and then investing even more for a PID kit when the total cost is within a hair's breath of an entry level E61 heat exchanger espresso machine? I don't get it.

When the PID's were becoming widely popular, the Silvia was more affordable and surplus or used PIDs were readily available on eBay on the cheap. With the dollar falling fast enough to put an eye out, and the cost of putting together a PID setup (or buying a ready-made kit) your assertions are correct.

But we are dealing with a lot of variables-
SAYS: "Well, dear, the Silvia is held in high regard and has a good resale value, even though it costs more than we planned."
THINKS: 'I can just add the PID later... huh huh.'

My best advice to new Silvia users: Taking for granted that a quality grinder and quality FRESHLY ROASTED coffee is being used, is to grind, one click at a time, finer until it chokes the machine. Then grind one click more coarse, tamp with a 5-10 pound tamp, lock the portafilter, remove the portafilter, and if there is only the slightest mark from the screw, then you are half way there.

As I have said, if espresso was easy, Starbucks could do it...

[jesawdy]

Just in case, let's take me out of the equation so there can be a crystal clear answer to my question. In the right hands, is a Silvia/Mazzer Super Jolly really capable of making espressos as good as more high end machines? Remember, we're taking the variables out-no 'depends on this' or 'depends on that' responses please!

My current daily morning set up is the Silvia (with PID) and a Mazzer Super Jolly. Yes, I think it is capable of good espresso.

I realise the Silvia is finicky. And I realise that many have upgraded for an easier life rather than an infinitely better coffee. However, I'm happy to follow a little finicky procedure if it fulfils two criteria:

1. It is consistent
2. The coffee tastes great

Here's my little finicky routine that I think works quite well:

Use a high quality fresh roast (my preference is for lighter roast espresso blends),

Use a deeper basket than the stock Rancilio double. I prefer the 18g 'Synesso/LM' ridgeless basket. This particular basket requires the use of a bottomless portafilter as it is too deep for the uncut one. The 14g 'Synesso/LM' ridgeless basket is a good second choice,

Grind and dose your coffee. I typically go 16g in that 18g basket. You may want to dose less in a smaller basket. The idea is to have an increased headspace,

For Silvia, I also usually do the WDT. On other machine combos I find I can skip the WDT with this class of grinder,

Pull your shot and stop on blonding,

Adjust grind and/or dose to affect shot extraction time and to adjust to your personal taste preference.

[Psyd]

Will the Silvia make good espresso, by all accounts yes. Will it equal the shots from a pro-quality machine, no.

Jeesh, CF, I really hate to argue with you. but what commercial machine will you be using when I put my (non-PID'd) Silvia up against it? Granted, I've been pulling shots off here since I killed my third steamtoy what, eight, nine years ago?
I own a $7800 two-group and a Silvia (and now a lever, but that's just bragging...) and I was spending most of my time pulling shots on each every other day. Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, and Sunday mornings from the Silvia, Monday Wednesday, and Friday from the Astoria. I'm pretty set on how the Silvia differs from the pro kit. I still say that I can pull shots out of her that would rival 95% of the pro baristi in their home shops. I say that because Nick, Bronwen, James, Heather, well, I'm not about to name the five percent of the American baristi that can kick my butt without question, and a large portion of the rest have the problem that they have to work in a busy environment and have to work repeatability and speed, while I have the luxury of all of the distribution and dosing techniques and patient dosing and flushing techniques that I want to.
If I were to be in a shop, I'd take that number to 75%. If we were to discount anyone using a superauto, I'd take that number to 40%, but you get what I mean.
If two Silvias were used, one to to pull shots only, one to steam, I'd be willing to bet that you could put them in a well known shops and after dialing in and getting the knack, they could fill orders and get at least as many compliments as complaints. You'd need one to pull shots, and one to steam (and probably one to fill reservoirs!) but they'd do just fine. It'd be hard, but the shots would be up to it.

[bigstu44]

I'm getting some great encouragement here-thanks guys. One thing that seems to run consistently throughout everyone's ritual is the use of a different basket to the stock Rancilio double. Am I right? Are there any of you that still consistently use the stock double?

I've played around with what I think is the LM ridged double but actually find that my shots, although still not good enough, are considerably better on the stock basket. Of course, that's very likely my technique rather than basket. I'm going to be working hard at bringing my technique up to scratch-that's a given in any further questions. So, with that in mind, should I stick with the stock double basket or move onto another?

[miKe mcKoffee]

If two Silvias were used, one to to pull shots only, one to steam, I'd be willing to bet that you could put them in a well known shops and after dialing in and getting the knack, they could fill orders and get at least as many compliments as complaints. You'd need one to pull shots, and one to steam (and probably one to fill reservoirs!) but they'd do just fine. It'd be hard, but the shots would be up to it.

That's a bet you'd lose. As a previous Silvia owner of 4 years, the last year with PID, past couple years Bric' at home and recently Linea at our Kafe, previously ran a small cafe with San Marco HX, I'll say impossible for multitude of reasons. First, any goal or business model of striving for at least as many compliments as complaints is a business model for failure. Word of mouth advertising is the most powerful method, negative experiences related 10:1 over positive.

Regardless two Silvia's couldn't even begin to keep up with my single group prosumer Bricoletta let alone a decent multi-group or even single group commercial machine. You cannot pull immediate back to back shots with Silvia, must wait for boiler recovery between shots. (Doesn't matter if PID'd or not). Pulling a series of shots the shot temp will rise ~12f by shot six with the same boiler temp. Again doesn't matter if boiler PID'd. This is caused by the group finally coming up to temp stability. Doesn't matter if Silvia has been on for hours, the group idles ~12f under production group temp. So much for consistency. Let's talk coffee shop reality in America. At least half the espresso beverages will be steam, Silvia steam power is anemic. Steaming for a 16oz double shot latte takes ~12 seconds with my Linea, IIRC 45 seconds or more with Silvia. So now not only waiting for shot boiler to recover for not shot but have to wait for steaming to complete and then have to wait for steam boiler pressure to build again.

Can Silvia pull decent to very good shots? Yes. Consistently? Yes & no, with qualifications both in copious experience on the handle side of the PF and in limited slow paced use. Can Silvia's best shots match the best shots of even high end prosumer machines? No.

[Randy G.]

Jeesh, CF, I really hate to argue with you. but what commercial machine will you be using when I put my (non-PID'd) Silvia up against it? Granted, I've been pulling shots off here since I killed my third steamtoy what, eight, nine years ago?..................

If two Silvias were used, one to to pull shots only, one to steam, I'd be willing to bet that you could put them in a well known shops and after dialing in and getting the knack, they could fill orders and get at least as many compliments as complaints. You'd need one to pull shots, and one to steam (and probably one to fill reservoirs!) but they'd do just fine. It'd be hard, but the shots would be up to it.

Even ignoring the inability of such a small boiler to keep up, and giving the Silvia all the recovery time she needs to perform properly, a Silvia is just not capable of the consistency that a better machine can achieve. To begin with, she has a very narrow margin of acceptable parameters to produce quality espresso. She is quite finicky as to dose, distribution, and grind, and the brew temperature range from the button thermostat just cannot compare with a machine of "commercial" quality. Another problem with Silvia (and all such single boiler machines) is that the pump starts the flow with such vengeance against the coffee that it does not give the coffee the chance to "settle in" as the pull begins.

Having used a Silvia daily for just over 6½ years and then having switched to the VBM D.S. for the last 6 months or so, I can say that there is no way that a Silvia can produce as consistently as the VBM— no way. With no disrespect intended, I would say that if your non-PID'd Silvia can produce shots as good as your two-group commercial machine, then there is something wrong with your two group. Now, it could be that your technique lends itself to the Silvia better than the two group, or your coffee works better with the temp and flow of the Silvia, or some such factor— I don't deny that your findings are correct, but I just don't know why.

On a day-to-day basis, my $1600 VBM beats the ovaries out of a Silvia, and my Silvia was PID'd.

As far as putting two Silvias in a shop and waiting for customer comments, this isn't much of a test unless folks are ordering straight shots, and even then, since most shops couldn't pull a decent straight shot if their Probat depended on it, it isn't much of a contest. You might as well say, "My Silvia can pull shots as bad as [__fill in coffee shop here__] any day of the week."

[bigstu44]

Hmmmm...the truth starts revealing itself! The previous two posts, whilst 'debating' psyd's point, have perhaps indirectly answered my question as clearly as I had hoped for. With the best intentions possible, my original question has been somewhat clouded by the 'get your technique right.' Not that I'm complaining-this has cemented my realisation of the importance of technique and has been very helpful-thank you all. The importance of technique has been well and truly driven home-promise


However, I can't help getting the feeling that, even with great technique and a PID, the Silvia just isn't going to meet my expectations. I appreciate the PID makes a BIG difference, but from what I've read it seems that it will still be quite a bit off machines that don't cost a whole lot more than the cost of Silvia and a PID combined. Remember, for me (and most others I would assume) taste AND consistency are important. I'd like a machine that gives me a great shot as consistently as possible (I'm not naive enough to expect perfection all the time)


I was kind of thinking of splashing out on a PID but now I think that I'd probably end up upgrading anyway at a later stage. Perhaps the fact that so many have done this already is saying something! Moreover, these people seem to, without fail, be delighted with their choices.


It would be more costly to get the PID, and then sell anyway. If I thought the PID would have been the complete answer I would probably have gone for it. But it doesn't appear so. My budget, at the moment, can't quite 'go that extra little bit' required to pay for a better machine after selling Silvia. So, rather than throw money away, I'll keep her just now-unmodified. However, unless some new evidence comes to light, I'll be getting a better machine as soon as my wallet allows. Two positive points will come from my wait and what this topic has taught me:


a) My expectations will now be more realistic

and

b) My technique will continually improve!


I'm still very open to dissuasion though...it would save me money!

[JimG]

I'll keep her just now-unmodified.

Maybe you should think about adding a thermometer. This will keep your additional investment to a minimum, and should help quite a bit with getting more consistent brew temps.

click here for link to CoffeeGeek discussion

Jim

[bigstu44]

Looks like a great, inexpensive option, Jim-thanks. Correct me if I'm wrong:


1) This will bring about a level of temperature control, perhaps not quite as accurate as a PID, but a hell of a lot better than nothing. And still pretty good to within a degree or two?

2) It'll be 'manual' instead of automatic? In other words, I'll obviously still have to surf but it will bring that all important accuracy?

In conclusion, it'll not be as hassle free as a PID but will have the ability to make shots as good and as consistently as a PID'd unit?

If I'm right, sounds great. As I said at the start, I really don't mind a bit of finickiness if I can get consistently great results

[Psyd]

That's a bet you'd lose. First, any goal or business model of striving for at least as many compliments as complaints is a business model for failure.
Can Silvia's best shots match the best shots of even high end prosumer machines? No.

Uhm, I wasn't exactly proposing a new business model, I was predicting the result of the (obviously flawed) experiment of replacing a modest cafe's kit with a pair of Silvia's. I meant a two to one Silvia to Group ratio. While I would never suggest this other than a theoretical exercise, it was meant to be an illumination, and the predicted results were included so that you wouldn't misunderstand me and think that I would suggest that the Silvia's would be as good as the pro kit. So much for that. Note to self: The issue with didacticity isn't cured, keep working.

While Silvia may not be able to match the product of the high end prosumer machines (the GB5? Which?) there are maybe five in a hundred espresso drinkers that could tell the difference between their best shots on a Silvia and their best shots on a GB5. While they may be able to tell the difference between your best shots on a GB5 and their best shots on Silvia, unless you're coming to their house on a daily basis, it's probably a moot point.
I was addressing the difference between purchasing starter like Silvia and a closer towards the GB5 machine in the $1.5K to $2K range. As far as most users go, the difference is how hard you have to work to get the same shot, and how steep the learning curve is, and how difficult it is to treat more'n two folk at a time to milk drinks with a single boiler machine.
They may eventually be able to pull better shots on better kit, but the bigger difference is how long they are going to be pulling similar shots on a machine that costs three to four times as much.
The biggest difference between kit (with remarkable exceptions) is the amount of input required from the barista to get to exceptional and repeatable shots.
Of course, painting with a brush this wide, there will be things included that shouldn't be, and things that aren't included that should, but it's a fair general statement.
Just in case: Never replace your pro kit in your shop with Silvias, that would be silly. Never open up a shop with a pair, or even four, Silvias and hope to succeed.