Quickmill Alexia with PID vs. HX espresso machine

[RancilioRancilio]

Sorry for all of the espresso machine questions but I keep discovering new products which makes choosing even harder. I had some questions regarding the Quickmill Alexia that I was hoping you could help me with. I was reading reviews on the Isomac Zaffiro and everybody seemed to say that it produced some of the best espresso shots they've ever tasted and I was wondering how the Alexia compared? Right now I'm thinking about purchasing a PID'd Alexia bringing the total cost around $1200 or so which is very close to a vibe pump Bricoletta. I usually only drink espresso so shot quality is my main concern but if I can get an HX machine that can produce a shot as good as the Alexia then I guess it would be good to have the instant steaming feature. So do you think the Bricoletta is the way to go given my situation? Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

[jesawdy]

IMHO, the espresso potential of both machines are the same or at least nearly so. The ease in getting there will be different, from a temperature management standpoint. Most all the other features are nearly identical (besides the obvious single-boiler / HX differences), although the Bric comes in several versions. Are you specifically looking the at lever-activated vibe-pump pourover version?

There are pros and cons to each machine, but really either one is capable of "exceptional espresso".

I assume you've discovered the Alexia Bench thread, here, and the Bric Review and Bench, here and here.

[HB]

I was reading reviews on the Isomac Zaffiro and everybody seemed to say that it produced some of the best espresso shots they've ever tasted and I was wondering how the Alexia compared?

I evaluated the Amica / Zaffiro (link), and like the Alexia, it's an easy machine to use, which I believe accounts for a lot of the praise it garnered. I PID'd the Amica and must say, Jim Gallt's conversion is much better than mine. The Alexia has no troubles with overshoot and the intrashot temperature stability is excellent. HX machines are capable of similar performance, but require much more attention to brew temperature management.

[TimEggers]

When I was looking to upgrade from my Gaggia Coffee Deluxe I was a mostly straight shot kind of guy. To others surprise here I went with a HX (Quickmill Anita).

You know I'm darn glad I did too, now if I get the hankering to work on my latte art (if you can call it that) or if I want a macchiato or the wife wants a latte its not a big deal to crank out the shots/drinks. Instant steam is a Godsend.

When it's just me and I want a great straight shot the Anita delivers. The HX brew management is to me a great dance and a simple way to experiment with shot temps with each pull. If I want a shot pulled warmer I know just what to do and vise versa (no PID to adjust).

I love the freedom and versatility that an HX has afforded me. The Anita can do everything I ask of her. I couldn't imagine myself with a dual use single boiler machine. HX has spoiled me so...

[oofnik]

Yeah, coming from a single boiler machine to an HX, it would be really tough for me to go back. Once you use an HX you realize how easy it is to manage the brew temp, not having to wait for things to stabilize, etc. And steam on demand is really as great and useful as it sounds!

[doppio_s]

Just another opinion here. I went through the same decision process and became an early adopter of the PID'ed Alexia. I've had it for about 9 months and I'm still happy with it. Shots are consistently very good and I do make temperature adjustments without any significant waiting time. When steaming for guests, I use a stovetop steamer, which is slower but still effective. My typical routine is a couple of straight shots followed by an occasional cappa or latte to practice my steaming skills (which are not very good). This requires a 2 minute wait for steam, but does not require a cooldown flush for a subsequent shot. Cooling from steam temp to shot temp is very impractical, which is why I save the cappa for last or use a stovetop steamer. I have never used an HX so I can't directly compare that to my current experience with Alexia. My decision was based on my perceived concerns about consistency of temperature, amount of water used for cooling flushes and added mechanical complexity of the HX P-Stat. Those who routinely use HXs don't seem to have problems with these issues. Good luck.

[miKe mcKoffee]

Sorry for all of the espresso machine questions but I keep discovering new products which makes choosing even harder. I had some questions regarding the Quickmill Alexia that I was hoping you could help me with. I was reading reviews on the Isomac Zaffiro and everybody seemed to say that it produced some of the best espresso shots they've ever tasted and I was wondering how the Alexia compared? Right now I'm thinking about purchasing a PID'd Alexia bringing the total cost around $1200 or so which is very close to a vibe pump Bricoletta. I usually only drink espresso so shot quality is my main concern but if I can get an HX machine that can produce a shot as good as the Alexia then I guess it would be good to have the instant steaming feature. So do you think the Bricoletta is the way to go given my situation? Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Have you read Chris Tacy's review of the Bricoletta? (link in jesawdy's earlier post this thread) His rating the Bricoletta shot quality higher than a stock Linea and equal to a modified Linea one of the factors in my decision. That said haven't spent enough time with QM machines to give a potential shot quality comparison and no time with Alexia only HX QM's.

Off forum you said

I was doing some searching on Home Barista and noticed that you own a Bricoletta. I was hoping I could ask you a few questions. My biggest problem right now is the 20 amp plug needed to run the machine. My house only has one and it would be impossible to setup the Bricoletta next to it. So would it be possible to run the machine on a 15amp if I turned the machine off after every use? Do you have any experience with the Quickmill machines? I was wondering how they compared to the Bricoletta.

If you attempted to run the Bric' on a 15A circuit the worst thing you could do was turn it on and off IMO. The Bric' is rated 1900w with the heater 1800w IIRC. If your power 120v that means fully engaged with heater & pump running simultaneously load would be 1900/120=15.8A and while heating only 1800/120=15.0A. Since once up to temp and stabilized heater duty cycle only about ~6% time on without insululation and ~3% if adding aftermarket insulation (mine). So while heating would be right at 15A limit, while pulling shots potentially briefly slightly over 15A. FWIW the heater is not normally on most of the shot unless pulling and steaming concurrently. Most breakers have short term overload wiggle room so might get away with it but I in no way advise intentionally overloading a circuit!

As I've stated in numerous threads the biggest difference I see between the Bric' and QM line is the Bric's higher heater power, mine with seemingly hot HX/therosyphon tuning, giving faster recovery enabling virtual non-stop back to back shots and or steaming and even steaming while pulling without shot temp dive. The power comes at a price, attention to temp management and copious flushing. From idle I double flush to desired target temp before flush for flush-n-go pull, using around 16oz water total for a 200f pull. (just made a cap' and the 3 flushes for the 200f shot yielded 8oz, 5oz & 4oz) Back to back shots with oz or two post shot flush, build shot, flush for flush-n-go pull taking 3 or 4 oz total including prevous shot post shot flush. I think I would go nuts if I had a tank to fill! FWIW my flushes are taking a bit more water now since raising boiler to 1.1-1.2bar band from 1.0-1.1, raised for better steaming power. I also pull quite a few SO up in the 204 to 205f range which of course require a bit less flushing.

[Randy G.]

I do not know those machines personally, but can comment on after 6+ years going from a small single boiler (Silvia) to a large HX machine (Vibiemme Domobar Super). The Silvia had been PID controlled for the last three years or so.

A PID does little to nothing during the shot. It replaces the thermostat and so supplies the user with the ability to set and hold a specific temperature while idling which potentially gives better shot-to-shot repeatability by removing that one variable. Once the button is pressed to brew the PID has virtually nothing to do with making espresso.

On the other side of the coin is the HX design. Although it would seem that the pressurestats that HX machines use for temperature control would seem to be less effective, but brew temperature stability comes from the design of the HX itself. take a look at the Domobar Super review here on HB on page 6 there is a chart showing 5 pulls (thanks to Dave for those, BTW):



... Check out how consistent the results were. It is quite impressive. Not saying that this specific machine is necessarily superior to all others, but that HX design can supply some very consistent results as well as allowing simultaneous steaming and brewing.

Using the same coffee, and with all the experience I had with the Silvia, the stock Domobar made better espresso right out of the box. There are a lot of reasons for that (heavy E-61 brewhead, flow rate control, etc.), but there it is.

So I would say that just because a machine has a PID does not necessarily make it superior to a machine not PID equipped. In the case of the Silvia, the PID is used to overcome the poor response of a button thermostat which has such a wide deadband that it detracts from the benefits of what is otherwise an excellent design for a small single boiler machine.

Finally- how long will you keep the machine? Ten years? A machine that is $500 more than you plan on spending costs about $4 a month over what you are planning to spend over its life. If, like me, you are the kind of person that keeps things around a long time then spend it now and enjoy it over a long time period.

[Marshall]

Sorry for all of the espresso machine questions but I keep discovering new products which makes choosing even harder. I had some questions regarding the Quickmill Alexia that I was hoping you could help me with. I was reading reviews on the Isomac Zaffiro and everybody seemed to say that it produced some of the best espresso shots they've ever tasted and I was wondering how the Alexia compared? Right now I'm thinking about purchasing a PID'd Alexia bringing the total cost around $1200 or so which is very close to a vibe pump Bricoletta. I usually only drink espresso so shot quality is my main concern but if I can get an HX machine that can produce a shot as good as the Alexia then I guess it would be good to have the instant steaming feature. So do you think the Bricoletta is the way to go given my situation? Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

The long and the short of it is the HX was designed for constant use in a coffee bar. Home use of an HX requires greater skill and experience to achieve the temperature stability that a PID single boiler provides on a no-brainer basis.

Proper HX temperature control at home also requires several times as much water usage. So, you are looking either at plumbing an HX machine in or refilling the tank every day or two. Plumbing the machine in in most parts of the U.S. means installing and fine-tuning a water treatment system for the right mineral balance. A pourover machine can simply use bottled water.

If your top priority is straight espresso for yourself, go with the Alexia. If your top priority is milk drinks for friends, go with an HX.

I took a real hard look at the upgrade possibilities from my PID'd Zaffiro and decided the only real upgrade for my purposes was a GS3. (Yes, I'm on the list).

As an aside, I've thought for some time that many (but, by no means all) people who swear by their milk drinks would give up their HX machines in a heartbeat if they could make really great espresso at home on a regular basis (which they could with a single boiler).

[Ken Fox]

The long and the short of it is the HX was designed for constant use in a coffee bar. Home use of an HX requires greater skill and experience to achieve the temperature stability that a PID single boiler provides on a no-brainer basis.

Marshall,

Have you actually measured the output of your Zaffiro with a Scace and datalogger, in order to be able to make this statement? If you have done this, have you done it enough times over a long enough period of time to be sure that what you got once is repeatable?

I have my doubts that your temperature control, sans any sort of flushing routine, is as good as you may assume it to be. You would be surprised at the great many things that can upset temperature stability in an espresso machine; in my house, simply having the windows open on a cold morning is enough, and my machines have much greater innate thermal stability than a smallish machine like a Zaffiro.

Proper HX temperature control at home also requires several times as much water usage. So, you are looking either at plumbing an HX machine in or refilling the tank every day or two. Plumbing the machine in in most parts of the U.S. means installing and fine-tuning a water treatment system for the right mineral balance. A pourover machine can simply use bottled water.

In a place like Southern California, where no one but family pets drink the tap water and 5 gallon bottled water jugs are scattered throughout the house, with replacements delivered to your door every week, perhaps this makes sense. For most people living elsewhere who would need to buy bottled water at the supermarket and pay by the liter, do you think this is a very attractive option? Many people live in places where the water is soft and relatively boiler safe. Others who live in hard water areas may find that they need or want to soften the water in the entire house, in which case the household softened water can be used. In many cases, cation softened water will produce very good espresso shots; just ask the Italians for whom this is normal. And the tiny amount of sodium one would ingest in their espresso shots is not worth worrying about.

If your top priority is straight espresso for yourself, go with the Alexia. If your top priority is milk drinks for friends, go with an HX.

I took a real hard look at the upgrade possibilities from my PID'd Zaffiro and decided the only real upgrade for my purposes was a GS3. (Yes, I'm on the list).

As an aside, I've thought for some time that many (but, by no means all) people who swear by their milk drinks would give up their HX machines in a heartbeat if they could make really great espresso at home on a regular basis (which they could with a single boiler).

Marshall also thought that the logical upgrade path from a dorm refrigerator was a Subzero

The last sentence is about as supportable as . . . . . the rest of this post.

ken

[Marshall]

In a place like Southern California, where no one but family pets drink the tap water and 5 gallon bottled water jugs are scattered throughout the house, with replacements delivered to your door every week, perhaps this makes sense. For most people living elsewhere who would need to buy bottled water at the supermarket and pay by the liter, do you think this is a very attractive option? Many people live in places where the water is soft and relatively boiler safe. Others who live in hard water areas may find that they need or want to soften the water in the entire house, in which case the household softened water can be used. In many cases, cation softened water will produce very good espresso shots; just ask the Italians for whom this is normal. And the tiny amount of sodium one would ingest in their espresso shots is not worth worrying about

I could be wrong (I often am), but I believe just about every serious coffee bar in the country uses water treatment. This is not just to minimize descaling routines, but for flavor balance. Cirqua Water Systems may be based in Southern California, but they have coffee shop customers all over the country.

Even our beloved Brooklyn friend, Fortune Elkins, who has the benefit of some of the best tap water in the U.S. uses bottled water (Volvic, I believe). I'm also pretty sure that home delivery of bottled water is available in most, if not all, metropolitan areas of the country (I've had clients in the business for years).

[HB]

Have you actually measured the output of your Zaffiro with a Scace and datalogger, in order to be able to make this statement? If you have done this, have you done it enough times over a long enough period of time to be sure that what you got once is repeatable?

On a related note... Were it not for the first shot (blue line starts out cold), I might have mistaken this plot for a GS3:


From Buyer's Guide to the Quickmill Alexia

Thermofilters didn't exist at the time I PID'd the Amica / Zaffiro, so I cannot speak from experience on its capabilities. That said, fussing about ultra-precise temperature control is so yesterday.

Even our beloved Brooklyn friend, Fortune Elkins, who has the benefit of some of the best tap water in the U.S. uses bottled water (Volvic, I believe). I'm also pretty sure that home delivery of bottled water is available in most, if not all, metropolitan areas of the country (I've had clients in the business for years).

I've done blind taste tests among friends of the finest spring water, filtered tap water and filtered / softened tap water. Only one person (my wife) was able to correctly identify all the samples. Some buy bottled water because they're concerned about the safety of their water supply, but it's unnecessary in most cities if your concern is the taste impact on your espresso. Of course, don't take my word for it, first do a blind taste test of the water alone, then with espressos prepared with difference waters. If someone could consistently identify espressos made with properly treated water and spring water in a blind taste test... wow, I am not worthy!

[Ken Fox]

I could be wrong (I often am), but I believe just about every serious coffee bar in the country uses water treatment. This is not just to minimize descaling routines, but for flavor balance. Cirqua Water Systems may be based in Southern California, but they have coffee shop customers all over the country.

These are the same "serious coffee bars" that, no doubt, use their "third wave baristas" to cram 20g+ of coffee into a PF, with all manner of silly procedures, when they could make better and more balanced shots with 14g and none of that silly barista hoohaw stuff? But I digress.

Even our beloved Brooklyn friend, Fortune Elkins, who has the benefit of some of the best tap water in the U.S. uses bottled water (Volvic, I believe). I'm also pretty sure that home delivery of bottled water is available in most, if not all, metropolitan areas of the country (I've had clients in the business for years).

You mean HER? I'm surprised she'd settle for volvic; why doesn't she have Chateldon flown in?

ken