Questions about La Valentina

[randomperson]

Having read Dan's excellent article(s) about La Valentina and HX flushing and so on I find I have just a few (!) nagging questions.

1. I am not one to switch blends frequently, as I am loyal to Terroir's espresso and mostly brew their Southern Italian SO espresso, occasionally their Northern or decaf. I believe all three like a cool temperature -- about 92C. Is there a simplified flushing routine (number of ounces and how long to wait after the flush) and set of settings that would help me achieve this consistently? Or am I better off with a Brewtus so that I can just nail the temperature more easily?

2. I will have this machine under an eighteen and one half inch counter -- can the reservoir be easily filled without moving the machine? (I gather it is in the back, but is the filler hole on the right or left or center of the back top panel?)

Many thanks for your help!

[randomperson]

Just to clarify, while I've read all the appropriate articles and such, I'm after a simplified routine that is based on ounces rather than observing the "water dance", if that's possible. Also, based on what I have read, I gather that 9 bar/.9 bar would be the appropriate pressure settings to get a low(ish) temperature. Assuming this is so, my other question is how many seconds to wait after the flush before pulling the shot -- again, with a 92C temp goal. And, once that first shot is pulled, even if I watch the water carefully, is the routine 2ounces or so after the dance stops? And again, how many seconds after that should I wait to pull the shot?

My apologies for my own confusion! I think I've read too much!

[HB]

Q1a: Is there a simplified flushing routine (number of ounces and how long to wait after the flush) and set of settings that would help me achieve this consistently?

Yes, Bob Yellin and others measure the volume of the flush to produce the desired temperature. Eric's E61 thermocouple adapter makes it even easier (I installed one on Valentina last week after finishing the Vetrano review). All of these approaches (water dance + rebound, flush-n-go, measured flush) are valid means of managing HX. Jim's recommendations, the Buyer's Guides, a few questions, and you're in the groove in a week or two.

Q1b: Or am I better off with a Brewtus so that I can just nail the temperature more easily?

There's no arguing that managing brew temperature on a dedicated boiler espresso machine is easier than an HX. Jim's $10 Method for Temperature Tuning an HX Machine gets you in the ballpark in short order, from there you adjust by taste. With a dedicated boiler machine, you trust that the temperature control is doing its job. As Abe reported in his writeup, the Brewtus delivers consistent brew temperature with little hassle (i.e., a "lazy man's" flush and you're ready).

Q2: I will have this machine under an eighteen and one half inch counter -- can the reservoir be easily filled without moving the machine?

Not easily. The opening is in the middle and pictured on 1st-line's website. You could use a funnel arrangement. I direct plumbed it.

Q3: And, once that first shot is pulled, even if I watch the water carefully, is the routine 2ounces or so after the dance stops? And again, how many seconds after that should I wait to pull the shot?

Different HX espresso machines seem to perform better with different flush amounts and times. For La Valentina, a slightly smaller flush and a short rebound of 10-15 seconds works well.

[randomperson]

Thank you so much, Dan! I can't tell you how much your posts have helped me -- and countless others. It's really a wonderful thing!

Thanks ever so much for all your help!

[framey]

I've got a Diadema Jr (or La Valentina), when I first got the machine I investigated flush routines with a cheap DMM and a thermocouple threaded through a hole in a single basket. I was concerned at the amount of water I had to flush. I was having to flush 300mls or 10 ounces of water before the temperature got down to 90*C (lowish I know). Just lately I have been questioning the accuracy of the measurements I was relying on. My shots were tasting really sour. It took me a long time to work out the difference between bitter and sour but I'm there now... I think.

In my quest to find the sweet spot, I tried pouring shots with very short and very long flushes. After lots of coffee and confusion, I read Dan's HX love article for maybe the 7th time, and I really started to listen to the water's hiss and spit. The flush conclusion I reached was that the water dance lasted for about 100mls or 3.3 ounces. This made sense because as far as I know that is approximately the volume of the HX. I then flushed a further 50mls, then locked and poured. This routine has served me well with several beans and blends.

I used to flush too much water, but didn't really notice it amongst the milk and sugar I put in my drinks, but as time goes by I'm drinking a lot more straight espresso and my milk drinks now have a much lower 3:1 milk to espresso ratio. Any faults in preparation are more evident these days.

Hope this helps a little.

[randomperson]

framey, this post was very helpful -- thank you! Just some clarification: After you flush (looks like for a total of about five ounces) do you wait at all until you pull the shot or do you just pull? Also, what settings are you using otherwise? (9 bar brew pressure, .9 or 1.0 bar boiler pressure -- or is it the other way around? -- or do you run your machine hotter than that? I'm after a kind of "cheat" that gets me to around 92C for the shot --
"cheat" in the sense that I'd like to try to avoid a whole lot of experimentation before I get it right. So your experience is invaluable to me!

I need a magic sentence like this: "To achieve a temp of 92C, flush for x ounces, wait for y seconds, and make sure your boiler pressure is set to q and your pump pressure to z."

On the other hand I could just do what everyone else has done and measure and experiment until I EARN my stripes!
Or I could buy the (truly ugly) Brewtus and be done with it! But I do love the looks and ergonomics of the Valentina -- and it does seem a waste to spend the extra on the Brewtus and get all that temperature versatility when I'm really after nailing things for one or two blends consistently, both of which like the same relatively low temp.

Any further insights would be most welcome!

[framey]

Yeah sorry about the lack of technical info on machine setup... The omission occurred to me not long after I left the computer.

As of tonight I've got mine setup with a boiler pressure that cycles between a low of 1 bar and a high or 1.2 I did have it slightly lower when I thought it was running hot, something like 0.9 low to a 1.1 high. I'm happier with the steam recovery now too.

The brew pressure is running at approx 8.8 bar. I say approximately because I used my own homemade brew pressure gauge. There is a little flutter, but it seems to be reasonably accurate. I'm happiest when the pour start no earlier than 7 seconds and no more than 12 seconds after I hit the switch.

I tend to make lots of coffees just mucking around with blends, technique, temperature and taste. As a result my flush routine can start out at approx 5 ounces (idle machine) and as I make more shots, or if I refill the water reservoir (winter here and water is quite cool) the flush can shrink. I have been listening more than measuring, but most of the time the hissing water stops at around the 100ml mark. I usually then flush a further 30 to 50mls. After the flush I wait the few seconds it takes for the boiler light to go off then lock in the PF and start the pour.

Overall I'm trying to let taste be my guide. I'll try flushing various amounts until I like what I'm getting in the cup. In my first post I mentioned my lack of faith in the relative accuracy of my temperature measurement technique and equipment, so trying to give you a magic number, flush wise, isn't really possible. I understand why you're after such advice, but familiarity with your machine over time will be your best guide.

[randomperson]

framey, thanks for your kind and detailed response. I must admit that after much reading and re-reading about HX flushing, things are only now starting to fall into place. I don't know why it seems so counter-intuitive -- but now I get that the wait brings things up to temp and then over, depending on the timing. My guess is I will become a flush and go person, just so I can take my time building the shot. I am wondering, though, if the upgrade to HX will be worth it, vs going to a double boiler machine instead. I currently have a Gaggia Classic and I have to say I am very pleased with the results I get, with a fairly simple short flush routine prior to building the shot. Then I just pull and go. I am noticing the usual inconsistency, however, and was hoping for more temp control by moving up to HX. It does seem equally if not incrementally complex, however -- so I may forgo that step and move onto a Brewtus perhaps. But it does seem like overkill given my modest production, since I mostly make espresso for myself, and only occassionally for guests.

Oh well, I guess all this pre-purchase analysis is part of the fun, eh?

Thanks again for your patient replies!

[randomperson]

Mmmm, decisions, decisions.

I told framey in a PM that I decided to postpone buying a new machine because of space constraints, etc., plus this nagging feeling that any purchase would be overkill.

But the upgrade bug has bitten me very badly, and I'm down to some critical decisions.

I was seriously considering the Brewtus for its complete temp management. OTOH I am not overly fond of its looks, fit and finish, and so on and I am also somewhat concerned about the quality of its components relative to La Valentina. Also, I do have some serious blend loyalty to Terroir, so the total temp flexibility seems a bit like overkill for my usage -- one to three blends tops, low shot production levels for the most part (two doubles a day, four if there's company).

Now, the Valentina -- having read and re-read everything a gazillion times, I think (maybe) that the flushing thing might not be as complex as I thought. I am going to try the flush and go technique at first, because I am relatively slow at building my shots. My plan is to flush until the end of dance, then count down 8-10seconds, then lock and pull. My goal is 92C (lowish temps go better with Terroir), so I will adjust the boiler pressure to .9 bar, and have the vendor make sure the pump pressure runs no higher than 9 bar.

So my first question is -- does this routine make sense for the lowish temperature that I am shooting for? Can La Valentina achieve that low a temp with reasonable consistency, assuming I am up to the task personally?

I am also assuming that subsequent shots, if they are pulled within five minutes of each other, will probably not require a cooling flush. Am I right about that? If I steam separately for short milk drinks so as to build one drink at a time, would a cooling flush be more necessary between shots than if I steam all my shots in a row?

Lastly, has anyone seen the Levetta and the Semi-Auto up next to each other? Is one more attractive than the other, in your opinion? Does using the lever in any way change how you time the shot (I assume you would time right after the lever is pulled, or when the brew switch is hit, and there would be no difference in timing between the two). I guess I'm asking if the Lever preinfusion takes a few extra seconds.

Oh, one more thing -- I've been looking for Bob Yellin's flush and go technique, per Dan's advice, but I can't seem to find the specific reference. If anyone has a great description of that technique, especially for La Val, I'd be grateful.

Am I right in thinking about La Val vs Brewtus????

Argh!!!

Thanks for any and all thoughts!

[HB]

I've used both the Brewtus and La Valentina; I agree it's not easy to decide among the factors you noted. If you wish to consider La Valentina or similar HX espresso machine but are concerned about temperature management, you should take a look at Monitoring Brew Temperature - E61 & Silvia, specifically the videos like the one below:

Medium delay (5-7 minutes). Result: 201.5F

It makes for nicely reproducible brew temperatures on an HX without worrying about "water dances."

[randomperson]

Thanks for your incredibly prompt reply Dan!

I had read the thread you referenced -- I just worry that the install would be too complex. Can a random person install such a thing?

[HB]

Eric's instructions are painstakingly detailed, but it boils down to this:

1. Remove grouphead Allen screw.
2. Insert adapter in grouphead, insert thermocouple into adapter.
3. Insert TC's mini-coupler plug into digital thermometer.

Optionally you can use an inexpensive PID as a temperature readout (Eric bought a box of them off eBay and sells them too). I haven't gotten around to it yet, but it boils down to:

1. Power PID controller from espresso machine (e.g., piggyback off of the power switch).
2. Clip TC wire leads, attach to PID controller terminals.

Obviously I'm oversimplifying. You shouldn't mess with electrical appliances if you're not confident you know what you're doing. A repair technician would be done in less than a hour with enough time for a leisurely espresso or two. I hope this helps resolve your HX versus dual boiler quandry... sure would be nice if manufacturers / vendors had this setup as an option "out of the box."

[randomperson]

You know Dan I was wondering too why the big online retailers don't have custom options (like temp readouts, etc) available for a fee. Sure would make things simpler for people like me who are not all that comfortable around electricity.

All these mods have me thinking (again!) that the Brewtus may be the best choice after all, as you get temp consistency (if not necessarily accuracy!) right out of the box, without having to add devices and cobble things together.

Any thoughts on relative reliability? Wholelattelove does not inspire me in terms of their product knowledge, etc., so if something went wrong with the Brewtus I'd really worry about their ability to fix it. (Not to mention my ability to put it back in the box and ship back all 63 pounds of him! I am a smallish woman!) Have there been issues? Are their parts of equivalent grade to the Valentina? For some reason I am under the impression that Expobar in general has had quality issues, or uses lesser grade parts or some such. First and foremost I am after a kind of bullet-proof reliability, to the extent that is even achievable -- and in any case 1st-Line seems better informed and more solid. So that too is a factor, as is the fact that I can't view any of these machines in person before buying them.

[HB]

A few vendors earn nearly across-the-board praise for their service. I've dealt with most of the well recognized online vendors as a customer. The HB equipment sponsors are my top picks because we share a common view of how to do things right. WholeLatteLove is less "hands on" than the others, with the exception of co-owner Todd Salzman. As for Expobar and their construction, I think Abe's assessment in The Buyer's Guide to the Expobar Brewtus is fair:

Expobar has the reputation for delivering equipment at the lowest price. For example, the Expobar Control has been the highest value-for-dollar prosumer machine available in the US for several years. They accomplish this by focusing their costs on the practical, business-end of espresso equipment, namely a big boiler and a beefy group. Niceties like a brew pressure gauge are omitted to keep the cost low. Looking over the Brewtus you will see these same conscious choices of investing costs where it delivers the biggest bang for the buck. For example, don't look for fancy steam knobs and two portafilters with every unit.

The Brewtus features standard, reliable, medium-grade components. Again, we are dealing here with a compromise to fit a machine within a certain budget. However, some owners report spotty attention to details. I believe Expobar can improve the machine without raising its price.

That said, I used the Brewtus for months and enjoyed its no-fuss brew temperature control. It's a big selling point.

PS: Related threads include Andreja Premium vs. Brewtus, Different Question: Andreja Premium or Expobar Brewtus, and Looking for a Dual Boiler Espresso Machine with a tank.

[randomperson]

Yes it is a tough call: medium-range components, OK fit and finish, plus reasonable vendor for the Brewtus) vs. higher (if not highest) range components, high quality fit and finish, and more hands-on vendor for La Valentina. Apart from temp control (a huge advantage!) I lean towards the higher-end components side, if only in anticipation of possibly higher failure rates for the Brewtus. But, I could be wrong. It's also that WLL just makes me nervous -- they have officious forms to fill out when things go wrong, salespeople (some) seem to lack core product knowledge, and so on. But perhaps that is just my experience.

I've asked you enough questions for one night! Thanks again for all your help, as always!

(Edited to remove an unfair question along the lines of "Would you buy the Valentina over the Brewtus today?" )

[HB]

Would you buy the Valentina over the Brewtus today?

You're right it's not a fair question, but not for the reason you might think: If I bought a Brewtus today, I would be modifying it tomorrow (rotary pump, PID with 1F adjustment, upgrade the heating elements... all documented in the Brewtus Group archives). By the way, I noticed that the Brewtus' price has increased significantly more than La Valentina ($1699, $1295 respectively) over the past year and is within $200 of the La Spaziale S1 ($1895).

[randomperson]

Bah. This morning, I woke up convinced to get the Brewtus. I looked again at the brewtus group archives and decided it wasn't so plug-ugly after all! Then I had breakfast and wanted La Val all over again.

While I don't like the price of the Brewtus, I can afford it and I am willing to pay if the quality is there. La Val still seems to me to be the higher quality choice, although when I look at the flushing it seems like an AWFUL lot of water going down the drain -- literally! And in my case that would have to be pricey bottled water, as my well water has a sulfurous smell and would surely kill any espresso machine! So any plumbed in machine is out of the question.

Can a normal user be happy with either machine, without mods???

And just how much literal time does the cooling flush take, anyway? Seems like a long time when I am looking at those videos, but that could just be me.

Argh. Double argh!

[miKe mcKoffee]

Bah. This morning, I woke up convinced to get the Brewtus. I looked again at the brewtus group archives and decided it wasn't so plug-ugly after all! Then I had breakfast and wanted La Val all over again.

I feel your pain.

While I don't like the price of the Brewtus, I can afford it and I am willing to pay if the quality is there. La Val still seems to me to be the higher quality choice, although when I look at the flushing it seems like an AWFUL lot of water going down the drain -- literally! And in my case that would have to be pricey bottled water, as my well water has a sulfurous smell and would surely kill any espresso machine! So any plumbed in machine is out of the question.

From a quality standpoint all machines have failures. The question of course is how relatively often and how well serviced if something does go wrong. Have no hard data to say one machine fails more often per unit sold but what limited experience I've had with WLL service has not been confidence inspiring. (as opposed to some sales not having product knowledge) Recently a friend bought a 'buyers remorse returned' Brewtus and brought it over to check out. Found that it had a problem feeding the brew boiler with water about ~20f higher than known to be working properly Brewtus. Talking to a WLL service tech asking about how to lower HX feed to brew boiler temp by either adjusting steam boiler pressure or HX tuning she kept explaining how to adjust the shot OPV pressure. After explaining the symptom many times and being told how to adjust shot pressure multiple time she finally admitted didn't understand the problem and had Todd call me back. Two issues I had here: first WLL sent out a returned machine with a problem that I suspect was why it was returned in the first place and second the service tech was giving bad information rather than when not understanding admitting it. Having many years computer service experience I understand it's virtually impossible to know all the answers, and that's not what's important. What's important is to know if you know the answer and if you don't know where to find the information. Don't give shot pressure adjustment information when the entire discussion has been a shot temp issue!

Can a normal user be happy with either machine, without mods???

Normal, what's normal!? That said, based on what you've said during this thread I suspect you'd be happier with a Brewtus from an ease of operation standpoint. I'd not hesitate buying a Brewtus, but I'd service it myself, so I understand your hesitation. I really don't think there's a huge failure rate with the Brewtus, maybe higher than some other machines but I only say maybe with no real service comparison data, and of course you'll see more posts from people when they have a problem. Don't often see posts like "just thought I'd post to say my machine didn't break today".

And just how much literal time does the cooling flush take, anyway? Seems like a long time when I am looking at those videos, but that could just be me.

How much time for the LV cooling I can't say 'cuz have a different HX (Bricoletta). My Bric' takes about 9oz cooling flush (which I achieve 16 count from flash not measured volume each time), just timed it 23 seconds. Most other machines I've read about their cooling flush seem to take less volume and hence would be less time.

Argh. Double argh!

Tough decision indeed.

[HB]

And in my case that would have to be pricey bottled water, as my well water has a sulfurous smell and would surely kill any espresso machine! So any plumbed in machine is out of the question.

I would investigate water filtering options. It may be more cost effective than bottled water for your drinking needs beyond espresso.

Can a normal user be happy with either machine, without mods???

It's easy to get obsessive over large purchases, especially when (a) you rely on information over the internet, not first hand experience, and (b) the differences are relatively small in the grand scheme of things. Directly to your question, yes, many people are perfectly satisfied with their espresso machines without modification. The temperature probe for La Valentina is very recent; it's certainly increased the repeatability to the maximum. The videos intentionally included "mistakes" to demonstrate the limits of the setup, but in practice most brew temperatures track to within a degree. That's hard to beat and well beyond my ability to discern (i.e., extraction differences are greater -- and my skills as a barista are the "weakest link" in that case).

And just how much literal time does the cooling flush take, anyway? Seems like a long time when I am looking at those videos, but that could just be me.

I was doing some minimum recovery tests awhile back and never reset the pressurestat. It is currently at the very top of its recommended range, so the flush is mega-large. The upside is that the recovery time is very short - less than 45 seconds IIRC. Normally I have it run quite cooler and that cuts the flush time in half, at the cost of a longer recovery time (~1m30s). If I get a quiet moment, I'll make another video with it at the lower setting (don't hold your breath though, those moments come infrequently in our household ).

[randomperson]

I was doing some minimum recovery tests awhile back and never reset the pressurestat. It is currently at the very top of its recommended range, so the flush is mega-large. The upside is that the recovery time is very short - around 45 seconds IIRC. Normally I have it run quite cooler and that cuts the flush time in half, at the cost of a much longer recovery time (~1m30s). If I get a quiet moment, I'll make another video with it at the lower setting (don't hold your breath though, those moments come infrequently in our household ).

Dan, your patience with me is truly amazing!

Video notwithstanding, I think if you could clarify something for me I'd be grateful: Am I right in assuming that recovery time is rendered moot by the "flush and go" technique? Assuming a pump pressure of 9 bar, and a lowish pressurestate setting of .95 bar, and using the "flush and go" technique, I'm thinking flush times would be minimized and recovery time unimportant, as you pull the shot right after the flush. Is that right? The only question I have is, how far to count down using flush and go? Assuming the end of the dance is 206, do you count down one second per degree until you get to the target temp (say 198F) and then just pull? Or should you go plus or minus a count to 198, and if so, how far? I'm not after true precision, just reasonable consistency. Am I making any sense? On the other hand, if the recovery time at that low a setting is as long as 1m30sec, maybe I'm better off doing the flush the usual way, as while my shot prep is slow, it's not THAT slow!

If I could only reasonably understand the whole concept of flushing I'd buy the Valentina in a heartbeat! I just reread much of the Brewtus group material and it kind of makes my hair stand on end in terms of reported problems.

Mike McKoffee -- Thanks so much for your kind reply as well! Your friend's experience with WLL kind of mirrors my own -- in my case with the Virtuoso grinder, which was shipped with an already milky grounds container, no manual, no grinder brush (all of this indicating prior use, even though I paid full price for it.) Then, it wouldn't grind for espresso. WLL were no help, I then used instructions posted on Baratza's website to recalibrate it myself, and it still wouldn't work. The final indignity is that they charged my a 10% restock fee when I returned it, claiming there was a small scratch on its base, which for all I know was put there by the prior user of the so-called "new" machine! They just give me the creeps, to be honest.

I'm close, I swear it -- to actually buying the Valentina and not looking back! (But I may change my mind after lunch!)

Thanks again!