Questions about HX cooling flush

[egghead]

Just finished reading "How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love HXs" again, and I think that I am beginning to understand the workings of the E61. My question is this: After the cooling flush the head is heated back up in about 30 seconds, and after the flush I pulled the portafilter out to grind the coffee into it, and the grinder takes about 25 seconds to do its thing, doesn't that give me only about 5 seconds to get the PF from the cooling flush, start the grind, and then after the grind, tamp it, and get it back into the machine?

Thanks for your insight. I am trying to learn how to do this, before I receive my new machines.

Larry

[cannonfodder]

You can flush a little longer which will extend the rebound time on the machine and give you more intra shot working time. You can also flush less volume but more frequent. I do a large flush into my awaiting cup. Pull the PF, wipe it out, grind and dose, flush another few ounces, tamp, flush another two ounces, lock in the PF, empty the water in my demi cup and brew. I have a large HX machine that requires a lot of flushing. On a smaller unit (don't know what machine you have) try doing about two thirds of your normal flush, grind and dose, flush the other one third, level tamp and go.

Flushing routines are not set in stone; you just have to experiment with the variables to see what works for your particular machine and blend. You can also turn down your Pstat a hair which will slow the intra shot rebound timing as well but at the expense of steaming power, if that is important to you.

[another_jim]

You can flush while you dose and tamp, no need for the PF to be there while you do it.

[egghead]

At this time I don't have the machine...I am hoping to get a Vetrano Rotary in the next couple of months. Until then I can only lurk and learn. So if you don't have the PF in place, doesn't the hot water spray all over the place? Sorry for asking questions that must seem really stupid, but for now, I am.

Thanks,

Larry

[another_jim]

At this time I don't have the machine...I am hoping to get a Vetrano Rotary in the next couple of months. Until then I can only lurk and learn. So if you don't have the PF in place, doesn't the hot water spray all over the place? Sorry for asking questions that must seem really stupid, but for now, I am.

Thanks,

Larry

There's no stupid questions; except when it's the same one over and over by people who don't like the answers they are hearing.

The water flows gently, under no great pressure, unless the flow is obstructed, which allows the pressure to build. The squirts and mess come on machines without a three way valve when removing the PF (called portafilter sneeze; it's not an issue on your future one), or if the group gasket has gotten old and leaky, and starts squirting out during a shot.

[Fr. John]

At this time I don't have the machine...I am hoping to get a Vetrano Rotary in the next couple of months. Until then I can only lurk and learn. So if you don't have the PF in place, doesn't the hot water spray all over the place? Sorry for asking questions that must seem really stupid, but for now, I am.

Thanks,

Larry

Nothing to input here but just wanted to say, nice choice on your upcoming purchase. I just recently got the same machine. Unfortunately it makes it so you can never go back

[egghead]

Thanks, John. Mary at Chris' Coffee suggested it, and the more I read, the more I like her choice. It will be paired with a Macap 4 stepless grinder. I have to wiat until the end of September before I can get them, and the wait is killing me.

Larry

[CoffeeBeau]

To do the water dance, I use my single PF in the group, and the double to grind into, then pull my shots. Good though on the rebound time vs. grind/tamp time.

Bob

[SuperT]

I have the Andreja (similar to what you are looking at) and a MACAP stepless.

I don't do my cooling flush with the PF in anymore. I figured out (by reading here), that about 6 ounces cools it off to where it needs to be (for most coffee). 6 ounces takes about 22-23 seconds. I grind while it flushes into my cup (heating the cup), after 22-23 seconds, I stop the machine (while I'm dosing, tamping, etc), wait about 25 seconds, lock the PF in and brew. I find it easy to work with the timing, I count off in my head (or use my watch). I'll adjust the variables based on the beans and how I perceive them by my TASTE (most important thing to me) - not always sticking to the 'rule' 100%.

You'll be fine, jump in and enjoy!

$.02

[mbuemi1577]

i saw in the article, how i stopped worrying and loved HX's, the use of a thermocouple in the cooling flush to get the right adjustments,

can anyone recommend or point out what one should spend on one of these and where to acquire them? I did a search on google but all i could find were $300-500 devices and nothing to cover what i would be actually measuring. (Water stream)

Most were either like puncture food industry temps (would that work? Id think you'd want something without a probe?) or the bare wire for measuring air....

Either way, what would you recommend and is it possible to obtain one under $300?

thanks

[SuperT]

i saw in the article, how i stopped worrying and loved HX's, the use of a thermocouple in the cooling flush to get the right adjustments,

can anyone recommend or point out what one should spend on one of these and where to acquire them? I did a search on google but all i could find were $300-500 devices and nothing to cover what i would be actually measuring. (Water stream)

Most were either like puncture food industry temps (would that work? Id think you'd want something without a probe?) or the bare wire for measuring air....

Either way, what would you recommend and is it possible to obtain one under $300?

thanks

You could go this route:
http://www.home-barista.com/forum...revealed-t319.html

[cannonfodder]

Naaa. There is a much better option now.

EricS's Adaptor After a Month of constant Use

If you must, Eric's adapter is much more accurate. You could also just use the second hand on a watch and your taste buds. Pull a flush for x seconds, wait y seconds and pull shot. If it is bitter, flush a little longer or rebound a little less. I have all but stopped using my adapter. It was helpful while learning the machine, but after a couple of months you wont need it anymore. Just like frothing, after some practice you wont need a thermometer. You can tell when it is finished based on touch, sound and sight.

[LeoZ]

Naaa. There is a much better option now.

EricS's Adaptor After a Month of constant Use

If you must, Eric's adapter is much more accurate. You could also just use the second hand on a watch and your taste buds. Pull a flush for x seconds, wait y seconds and pull shot. If it is bitter, flush a little longer or rebound a little less. I have all but stopped using my adapter. It was helpful while learning the machine, but after a couple of months you wont need it anymore. Just like frothing, after some practice you wont need a thermometer. You can tell when it is finished based on touch, sound and sight.

how about best of both worlds? i think it looks kind of cool to have the little digital thermometer sticking off the top of the head like that..but dont like a wire draped over it. go figure!

i have one identical to what you used, and it claims to be 'instant read'. think ill get close to accurate temps with it and erics adaptor? better yet, i wonder if it will fit.. do the wires have to be shielded by the rod? maybe i can keep them exposed and snake them through his adaptor?
ive got shots to where i want them, but now am just curious more than anything..

[erics]

There does not exist an "instant read" or any other digital stem thermometer to fit "my" thermocouple adaptor. The stem diameter of most digital stem thermometers (they are, to the best of my knowledge, all made in China now) is 0.151 inches.
How and why they came up with this dimension is beyond my comprehension other than, perhaps, it seems to fit the NTC 100K thermistors that are most often used in these devices.

Obviously there exists others with different diameters (a google search on "digital stem thermometers" will keep anyone busy for a few hours). The only adaptor that any of these thermometers works with is an adaptor called Pete's Plug. You can google that and read up on it. Its stock threading won't work with our espresso machines and now you're into the wonderful world of "custom adaptors" if they would even consider that.

What you want is one of these which MAY be available in a week or two:


Note that the 175 mm dimension should have read 1.75 inches. Evidently I had too many cappy's.

It is made possible by these:



I truly haven't decided whether I want to build these. The parts and labor cost easily exceed what it would take to do the same thing (only better) with the original thermocouple adaptor, thermocouple, & inexpensive PID used as a meter. I know I'll build one just to confirm my thoughts as to how long it takes to do it (start to finish). If you want to build your own, I will be MORE THAN HAPPY to sell you the adaptor tube and the newly designed 1/8" tube adaptor fitting from Swagelok to accomplish this mission. This digital temperature indicator is built around the Taylor 9842 digital stem thermometer (about $20 ±5), which you will need to disassemble (easy). I have ordered four special stainless steel adaptor kits from Swagelok ($53 each) and the custom tubes are $7 each. The dollar figures re Swagelok and the custom tubes are actual costs.

This device is NOT as accurate and is NOT as responsive as a thermocouple inserted into the original thermocouple adaptor. But, for those users who are not necessarily concerned with blazing accuracy as they are with reasonably good repeatibility AND want a wireless solution, this may be a good thing. The most important element is a good correlation with "an indication of brew temperature" and how the end product tastes to you.

Eric S.
erics@erols.com

[LeoZ]

There does not exist an "instant read" or any other digital stem thermometer to fit "my" thermocouple adaptor. The stem diameter of most digital stem thermometers (they are, to the best of my knowledge, all made in China now) is 0.151 inches.
How and why they came up with this dimension is beyond my comprehension other than, perhaps, it seems to fit the NTC 100K thermistors that are most often used in these devices.

Obviously there exists others with different diameters (a google search on "digital stem thermometers" will keep anyone busy for a few hours). The only adaptor that any of these thermometers works with is an adaptor called Pete's Plug. You can google that and read up on it. Its stock threading won't work with our espresso machines and now you're into the wonderful world of "custom adaptors" if they would even consider that.

What you want is one of these which MAY be available in a week or two:

I truly haven't decided whether I want to build these. The parts and labor cost easily exceed what it would take to do the same thing (only better) with the original thermocouple adaptor, thermocouple, & inexpensive PID used as a meter. I know I'll build one just to confirm my thoughts as to how long it takes to do it (start to finish). If you want to build your own, I will be MORE THAN HAPPY to sell you the adaptor tube and the newly designed 1/8" tube adaptor fitting from Swagelok to accomplish this mission. This digital temperature indicator is built around the Taylor 9842 digital stem thermometer (about $20 ±5), which you will need to disassemble (easy). I have ordered four special stainless steel adaptor kits from Swagelok ($53 each) and the custom tubes are $7 each. The dollar figures re Swagelok and the custom tubes are actual costs.

This device is NOT as accurate and is NOT as responsive as a thermocouple inserted into the original thermocouple adaptor. But, for those users who are not necessarily concerned with blazing accuracy as they are with reasonably good repeatibility AND want a wireless solution, this may be a good thing. The most important element is a good correlation with "an indication of brew temperature" and how the end product tastes to you.

Eric S.
erics@erols.com

woah, where to start!!

i just confirmed my thermometer is .151" in diameter. so, the new adaptor fitting would be too big for a thermocouple, should i wish to go that way in the future? also, i know the thermocouple wires feed into the center of the hx path. would the thermometer be close, or would this be another area of inaccuracy?

eh, i dont know, i think im trying to complicate things, especially since the thermocouple option can be easily disconnected, right?

if this would be easier to discuss offline, let me know.

[erics]

Because the adaptor fitting that I convinced(?) Swagelok to manufacture (I thought for sure they would say no) accommodates ANY 1/8" tube, that sorta restricts the flow to the grouphead a little too much unless you utilize a pencil tip probe as I have illustrated. I am certainly NOT AWARE of any thermocouple probes that utilize a pencil tip - most are hemispherical or semi-hemispherical (what a word). I take that back - Omega makes some fine tip probes that have a pencil tip but to get one at the required length requires a little research and a little legwork.

So, your comment is basically correct, i.e. because of the group passageway dimensions, I would be a little hesitant to use a properly placed, standard, 1/8" thermocouple probe. I would not be hesitant to use a pencil tip probe.

And I apologize to the OP if this has gone off topic too far.

Eric S.

[mrgnomer]

Thanks, John. Mary at Chris' Coffee suggested it, and the more I read, the more I like her choice. It will be paired with a Macap 4 stepless grinder. I have to wiat until the end of September before I can get them, and the wait is killing me.

Larry

Just the upgrade I recently picked up at Chris' Coffee as well. Excellent set up. Great espresso.

I've tried grinding, dosing then flushing for temp. During the rebound time there's just enough time for a good tamp then lock in. I've got a stopwatch on the flush, rebound then pull time. It works pretty good for consistency but the flush seems to be an intuitive/taste thing. I like to pull below 200F with most blends and a longer flush/shorter rebound helps. I find what seems to make more of a difference in the cup is dose,distribution and tamp. Flushing, I find, doesn't have to be as right on exact.