Questions about getting into roasting

[CyclingCraig]

First here is my situation:

Mostly beans will be used for espresso (> 80%)
Espresso Machine: Quickmill Anita
Grinder: MACAP M4
(Don't know if machine I use for espresso makes a difference?)
I don't go thru a lot of coffee, about 1 lb in 3 weeks. (1 or 2 doubles a day with maybe more on the weekends)

Currently order a pound at a time from places like Paradise, Intelli and Caffe Fresco. and it cost me anywhere from $14 to $24 per lb, depending on what I order and shipping cost. I can't order more than a lb at a time because is would go bad by the time I get to use it.

Then I noticed that Paradise now offers green coffee for home roasting, I could get a 5lb bag of that, only roast what I need and have a constant supply of freshly roasted coffee for less than half the price and save on shipping?

I know I have to buy a roaster, and I am looking at the Hottop KN-8828B, I know it is very expensive, but in general I LOVE coffee and the coffee hobby itself, AND I love coffee toys.(Big thanks to Randy G for his reviews)

Now for the questions:
- If I get greens from Paradise will my roast be anything at ALL close to what I get from them already roasted, and how long will it take me to get something decent out of the Hottop?
- I have seen and read posts about using a Variac voltage thingie, is that really necessary with the new Hottop models
- Can the new models just be plugged in and used as is, or do you really need to add bean mass temp probes to get something decent out of these machines.
- Can I roast less than the 225g they state as "capacity"
- also is there a good "Basics" tutorial on roasting profiles that I can be pointed to... Like what does extending the 1st crack do to flavor, how does the Temp ramp affect flavor.. things like that?

Thanks all
- Craig

[another_jim]

The basic Hottop has a pretty good out of the box profile; the new manual one has a faster profile, which will make it even better, while the programmable one could do the best with experience. In other words, your home roasted coffee will be very good with only a minimum of learning curve.

However, I have bad news. I've been home roasting seriously a long time, and I can mostly do as well, particularly for my own taste, as most professional roasters with the same beans. However, Miguel remains a vanity bruising exception; I review a lot of his green beans, and his roasts are uniformly better than mine, even for my own taste. So you should be prepared to find that you won't quite equal his roasts any time soon.

[CyclingCraig]

Thanks Jim for the quick reply

I KNOW I will NEVER be on the same level as the likes of Paradise, Caffe Fresco and all the other amazing roasters we have.

I guess I was more curious if I would be making pounds of roasted coffee that would only make sink shots? I have a VERY young and inexperienced espresso palate, so would I even be able to tell or really mind the difference between what I would be able to roast at home and the Pros good stuff?

I would still order roasted coffees every so often just to see how I am doing and just because I would like to try different coffees.

[ilVecchio]

I own the new Hottop. With moisture lost during the roasting process, I'm left with just under 8 oz of coffee beans. These take anywhere from 2 to 5 days to degas and reach their peak for espresso extraction. Greenline, the superb green version of Metropolis's Redline, takes the longest rest post-roast. I think that what I'm trying to say is that the recommended batch size in the Hottop is not too much for a dedicated espresso addict to use within the peak time for the beans.

Joel

[ppopp]

Jump in with both feet and don't look back. The learning curve before you have great tasting coffee will be so short it will soon be forgotten. You'll pay 1/4 to 1/2 of what you're paying now for roasted beans. I think the best part is always have stock on hand to roast a batch, and worrying about running out of beans because you forgot to place an order, for example.

To me, this is really a no brainer. Just do it.

Check out the Sweet Maria's website as a great resource for learning, and a great resource for top quality beans.

[CyclingCraig]

OK,

So I know Randy G likes the control of the Hottop B model better than the P. But what are some thoughts of some new uses of the "P"'s and "B"'s Do "P" owners find it limiting not having full control durning the roast?

But for a newbie like myself would I be better off preprogramming a profile, rather then adjusting it on the fly?

Also for example in the "P" model, let say you get to 1st crack and want to slow down the temp ramp to second crack, How is that done in the "P", you don't know when 1st crack will happen BEFORE hand? In the "B", you can just dial down the heating element at the point you want. That makes sense to me... messing with temps in the current "Stage" doesn't?

Also WHERE can you get the new "P" and "B" models? SweetMarias doesn't have them listed on the website? Is there other places I should consider getting Hottop from? SweetMarias is the only place I know of right now.

Thanks again
-Craig

[CyclingCraig]

I emailed SweetMarias and they won't have the new Hottop 8828B for like 3 weeks. . Don't know if I want to wait that long.

I was reading over on CoffeeGeek that someone ordered one from "Coffee Bean Corral". Has anyone ordered from there before? I have never heard of them, only know of SweetMarias from this group, but I have never seen Coffee Bean Corral mentioned. Are they a reputable supplier? How are their green coffees?

Also they are in NC, which is MUCH closer than CA to me, and I was just thinking shipping the shorter distance might be better for the unit, less chance of damage?

but if SM's is a much better place to deal with maybe I will wait?

Thanks
Craig

[cafeIKE]

IMO, SM is over rated and overly hyperbolic.

I've never bought from Coffee Bean Coral, but never seen a bad report on them.

I got my Hottop from Bald Mountain Coffee. Their service is fantastic and their beans are first rate.
Sadly. they are backordered on the Hottop.
http://baldmountaincoffee.com/

[another_jim]

IMO, SM is over rated and overly hyperbolic.

Even heaven couldn't live up to some of their notices. However, they have always been solid, and in the last few years, Tom has been bringing in the some of the world's best auction coffees.

[miKe mcKoffee]

IMO, SM is over rated and overly hyperbolic.

I got my Hottop from Bald Mountain Coffee. Their service is fantastic and their beans are first rate.
Sadly. they are backordered on the Hottop.
http://baldmountaincoffee.com/

I'll take your word Baldmountaincoffee's greens are first rate. One big difference I've found between SM and other greens suppliers is the amount of information for each and every green. For instance

Kenya AA Lot 100 - Kimathi
* Continent: Africa
* Country: Kenya
* Type: Non-Decaf
* Grade: AA
* Wash Method: Washed
* Dry Method: Sun Dried
* Species: Arabica

That's all the information on the Kenya green compared to

Kenya AA Nyeri - Karatina
Country: Kenya Grade: AA Region: Nyeri District Mark: Karatina Town Cooperative
Processing: Wet Process Crop: July 2007 Arrival Appearance: 0 d/300gr, 18 screen Varietal: Probably SL-28
Notes: Between the towns of Nyeri and Kirinyaga on the south-facing slopes of Mt. Kenya, you will find the town of Karatina. It is right on the border between the Nyeri and Kirinyaga coffee growing regions, at some of the highest altitudes on the slopes of Mt. Kenya. The Karatina regional farms are grown at an average elevation of 1700 meters (5800 feet), and have an overall character of sharp citrus acidity and clear fresh fruit flavors. It's and appropriate general description for the Karatina, which is less of the red wine character you might find in a Kirinyaga coffee, rather a crisp chardonnay character of a good white, dry wine. Clarity, tranparency, liveliness and brightness; this is a cup that truly registes on the palate like the ring of a bell. It has a cristaline and light sweetness. The body is actually quite light, and the overall flavor impression has a narrower range than some other Kenyas that have a very wide, expansive cup character. But a heavy mouthfeel and a broad character would be out of place with the precise acidity and delicate aromatics of the Karatina. With a shorter rest time, the coffee has a red currant fruit ...fresh and vibrant. This is such a well-structured, well-defined, articulate Kenya. It's not the most powerful, most aggressive ... it's rather mild in its general disposition. But in that way it is quite approachable, with a shimmering brightness. It's just a very pristine, beautiful Kenya. In that respect, I recommend a fairly light roast treatment here to allow the coffee to express itself to the fullest without being overshadowed by too much roast taste. As you roast it darker, spice notes (cinnamon stick) develop, but citrusy brightness diminishes.

Dry Fragrance (1-5) 4.4
Wet Aroma (1-5) 4.6
Brightness - Acidity (1-10) 9
Flavor - Depth (1-10) 9.2
Body - Movement (1-5) 3.2
Finish - Aftertaste (1-10) 9.2
Cupper's Correction (1-5) 1
add 50 50
Score (Max. 100) 90.6

Intensity/Prime Attribute: Medium intensity / white wine, transparant, sharp
Roast: I like City+ (expect dark surface bean color for corresponding degree of roast). This has darker roast character at the City + stage than you might expect. See notes above.
Compare to: Clear, bright, crisp Kenya profile

Personally I don't find Tom's write-ups Hyperbole but rather valuable information.

[CyclingCraig]

Well, I did it..

Just placed my order for the Hottop 8828B. Ordered it from Coffee Bean Corral, and Russ over there was VERY helpful and answered all my email's very quickly (even over a holiday weekend).

It came with 2 X 2 1/2 lbs Packages of green beans, first 2 1/2 is there choosing, second I choose an "Espresso Blend".

Well, now the "Brown Truck" waiting game begins and I read EVERY thread about roasting here while I wait in anticipation.

We will see how this first 5 lbs goes, and then I hope to order some of the espresso blends from SweetMarias.

-Craig

[Rainman]

Congratulations, Craig! Now no one can tell you that you're not committed to the hobby! You certainly can't go wrong buying green from SM, but there are several other places if you get more curious (green coffee buying club, greencoffee.coop, and a few others). I've probably been roasting at least as long as Jim, but I've only amassed maybe 1/1000th the experience and knowledge. Point is- take the time to read and remember what you've learned along the way (ie. take good notes, so as you age, you won't forget). There is very little top-level advice about roasting that you can get from a book. What the pro's know, they learned mostly on their own by experimentation. You'll probably read lots of cupping notes and wonder, "man, that guy's got a lively imagination to taste THAT!", especially with some of the trickier beans (the blueberry flavor in an Ethiopian Harrar is just one example). Once you get it, you're hooked.

Too bad you didn't get one of the fluid air machines and experience the lemony acid bite from roasting a central American too quickly! Probably a lesson learned well-enough by reading about it through someone else, though.

Good luck!

Ray

[CyclingCraig]

Yeah, I can't wait for my Hottop to get here, I really did jump in with both feet . I went for the Hottop just because of all the good press about it, and I didn't want to deal with the frustrations I have read about with roast quality from the other machines. I KNOW you can get GREAT roasts from the others, but it seems you need to be more skilled and knowledgable to get it. So I just "went big" with the Hottop, figure start off with a quality machine.

I plan on taking a lot of notes as I roast and try to learn how the ramp to first crack, time between 1st and 2nd crack and time in 2nd crack affect the taste of my pulls.

My first plan is to just set the machine on Auto, and stop the roast a couple of seconds into second, to try and get a basic City - City+ roast(If I can even notice second crack)?

[Randy G.]

My first plan is to just set the machine on Auto, and stop the roast a couple of seconds into second, to try and get a basic City - City+ roast(If I can even notice second crack)?

You will have no problem hearing both first and second crack if the beans are fresh. The owner's manual contains a LOT of useful information on roasting in general as well as the specifics of how to operate the machine. I think you will find it a useful resource. You can download the most recent version of the manual in full color PDF format from the link above on the Hottop USA website. There are two manuals- be sure to get the one that covers the "B" model. This way you can be familiar with the roaster before it arrives.

[nicfortin]

I'd like to "chime" in since me too I want to start roasting sometime next winter.

So far it's been mostly on Hottop on this thread.
What about Behmor or GeneCafe as a first roaster?
After lots of reading (even though I'm not sure to understand everything sometime )here's my options : Hottop "B" model, GeneCafe and Behmor(for those who have the chance to try it or at least understand how it works (profiles etc.)) Which of those 3 home-roasters is the one a newbie should choose for the best learning experience?
Manual control over automatization? GeneCafe over Hottop (Behmor being in between if I understand it's features)?

Thx

[Randy G.]

here's my options : Hottop "B" model, GeneCafe and Behmor(for those who have the chance to try it or at least understand how it works (profiles etc.)) Which of those 3 home-roasters is the one a newbie should choose for the best learning experience?

The cheapest way to get started is probably to find a popcorn popper at a thrift store. "The Poppery" is good, but any that has a metal base of the roasting chamber and that sends the hot air in from the sides and not through a screen at the bottom will work. For about $10 or less you can get a start at understanding the process in a basic way.

GeneCafe - makes a very nice roast and good design overall. Has no memory so once you find something that works for you it becomes necessary to manually duplicate it for every roast. Also has no effective cooling so you need to come up with a good pair of gloves and an external method to cool beans. Difficult to hear second crack. Smallest usable capacity of the three (about 250-275 grams). Easy to duct smoke.

Behmor - Large capacity and most affordable of the three. Unknown to a great extent at this point. No cooling, much like the Gene. More difficult to remove and open drum when compared to the Gene.

Hottop - Most expensive of the three. Takes a bit more cleaning than the Gene. Two models are programmable with memory, and has best cooling of the three. Very quiet and easy to hear cracks. Easily roasts 300 grams. Not well sealed when it comes to smoke production. Nooeds a good range hood or used out doors.

[Rainman]

Yeah, I can't wait for my Hottop to get here, I really did jump in with both feet . I went for the Hottop just because of all the good press about it, and I didn't want to deal with the frustrations I have read about with roast quality from the other machines. I KNOW you can get GREAT roasts from the others, but it seems you need to be more skilled and knowledgable to get it. So I just "went big" with the Hottop, figure start off with a quality machine.

I plan on taking a lot of notes as I roast and try to learn how the ramp to first crack, time between 1st and 2nd crack and time in 2nd crack affect the taste of my pulls.

My first plan is to just set the machine on Auto, and stop the roast a couple of seconds into second, to try and get a basic City - City+ roast(If I can even notice second crack)?

2nd crack is easy to hear w/ the Hottop- it just sounds a bit more muffled than 1st. A friend of mine once said that 1st sounds like pencils snapping, and 2nd more like toothpicks... I'm sure everyone has their own description. One hangup with crack intensity/timing is that with some beans (especially the fairly uneven-looking Yemens or Ethiopians)- you may have trouble figuring out the distinction between 1st and 2nd. I think making sure the warm up period is long enough (so all beans are an even yellow color) before beginning the ramp to 1st crack helps (more beans hit it simultaneously). BTW- has the roaster arrived yet?

Ray

[KarlSchneider]

Yeah, I can't wait for my Hottop to get here, I really did jump in with both feet . I went for the Hottop just because of all the good press about it, and I didn't want to deal with the frustrations I have read about with roast quality from the other machines. I KNOW you can get GREAT roasts from the others, but it seems you need to be more skilled and knowledgable to get it. So I just "went big" with the Hottop, figure start off with a quality machine.

I plan on taking a lot of notes as I roast and try to learn how the ramp to first crack, time between 1st and 2nd crack and time in 2nd crack affect the taste of my pulls.

My first plan is to just set the machine on Auto, and stop the roast a couple of seconds into second, to try and get a basic City - City+ roast(If I can even notice second crack)?

Congratulations Craig!

Sorry to be so late here. I am sure you will find the Hottop a great roaster. I got my first in 2002 and got a P model in February. I have roasted all my own coffee since 2002. I think it does a great job for espresso roasts.

Some late comments.

Hearing 1st and second is easy on the Hottop. The first as snapping a pencil works for me. The second reminds me of a snap on a shirt.

In terms of batch size you can easily start with less than 225g. The result will be the whole process goes a bit faster. Rember the end result is ca. 15% less. I typically get 186g out of 227 start.

Starting with the pre-programmed roast is very wise. I find the one on my P model one of the best and use it when I want that profile. I also have developed my own very different profile for other roasts. I would be glad to explain my process for getting the second but that is for a later time. Learn the standard first. For 5 years it was all I had and I could get different roasts out of it.

You mention roasting established blends. This is a great option but do not forget you can create your own blends and you can explore single origins which happens to be my preference. It seems to depend on whether you prefer diversity of taste or a single classic taste.

I have been a devoted SM customer from the beginning. I rely on Tom's desriptions the same way I rely on those of a wine salesperson. I never assume either can tell me what I will like. I have learned to listen to their descriptions and to then translate what they say into my own framework. What is crucial in this process is to get consistency from the description. Tom is very consistent and I like that. I know I do not have the same preferences as he does but I can decipher his desriptions very effectively for my taste. And as Jim S points out he has many fine batches available.

Take notes, they help. I have all my notes in a log. Originally I recorded starting weight and end weight, ambient temp, time to first crack and time to second and end time each expressed as time from the moment I dump the beans into the drum. Now I record time to first crack and temp, time to second and temp and time at end and temp.

KS

[cafeIKE]

Personally I don't find Tom's write-ups Hyperbole but rather valuable information.

I stand corrected, at least on that Kenya. It's been quite a while since I visited SM

[CyclingCraig]

Just checked my tracking number and it is on the FedEx truck for delivery TOMORROW! CAN"T wait! I am soo excited!

Thanks all for the supportive comments on my purchase and the Hottop, I really wanted to make sure I got a good machine and all the comments I received here makes me feel I made the perfect decision for me.

I plan on just learning the roasting process first with pre-blended beans, like from Paradise and S.O.'s from SweetMarias' and of course I feel like I HAVE to try Monkey and Liquid Amber from SMs' before I try making my own blends.

I have read the owners Manual like 50 times since I placed my order . I am sure I won't be able to wait to roast my first batch (Beans that came free with the roaster from CoffeeBeanCoral) tomorrow night. I will post back up here and let you all know how it went. I will probably photo document the unpacking and set up process and roast process.

Thanks again for ALL the help so far, but I am sure I will be picking all of your brains for roasting info once I get settled into the Hottop.

-Craig