Questions about getting into roasting - Page 2

[CyclingCraig]

I just had the BEST time. I JUST roasted my first batch of beans in my brand new Hottop KN-8828B!

It was SOOOOOO cool!

I roasted the 100% Organic Mexican Manana that came with the roaster from CoffeeBeanCorral. Here are some stats I took down:
Weight in: 249 g
Weight out: 207.5 g

First Crack happened at about 9:40 into roast. At that point I turned the heater down to 50%.
First Crack ended at about 11:20 into the roast.(I THINK)

then things started to happen fast!... Is that second crack?!?! Is it still first! Do I eject>!>! How do the beans look?!?! I started to panic a little and get nervious (LOL)

Pressed Eject at about 12:30 into the roast... what I think was a couple of seconds into second crack, the snapping sound JUST started to really increase in speed, and I pressed eject!

Coffee Looks REALLY good... Not oily AT ALL or over cooked, just a nice deep brown, a smidge smidge darker than some fresh beans I just picked up from Rojo's Roastery(Local GOOD espresso shop).

I would say a nice full city / full city+ color. After it cooled in the tray, I shook of some excess chaf, weighted it then put it into one of the ziplock valve coffee bags I picked up with the roaster.

MANNNN that was SOOOOO much FUN!!!

Can't wait to try it! Think I might try and make some drip or french press with it tomorrow morning at work (I Know not enought time to degass)
-Craig

[KarlSchneider]

I just had the BEST time. I JUST roasted my first batch of beans in my brand new Hottop KN-8828B!

It was SOOOOOO cool!

<snip>

Can't wait to try it! Think I might try and make some drip or french press with it tomorrow morning at work (I Know not enought time to degass)
-Craig

Craig,

Great to hear this report. After a batch or two you will hear 2md crack very easily. It clearly is more subtle.

Do try the new roast tomorrow. Yes they need to de-gas and will get better over several days. But now you have the chance to follow that sequence by tasting it. Use this as a learnig exoerience. I still love the first cup from a new roast even though I know it will get better.

KS

[Randy G.]

Nice report, Craig. For those of us who have been roasting at home for years it is sometimes hard to remember the excitement of those first roasts, but hearing your story brings it all back.

I have been asked so many times, "Which roster should I buy?" And for the most part the answer is a difficult one. I can say that if you choose a Hottop it is difficult to be disappointed.

I use the inner colander/drain-basket from a pasta cooker to de-chaf my beans after roasting. I make a point of doing so in the sunlight so that I can spot any foreign matter- rocks, metal bits, etc. The larger holes of the pot also allow more chaff to drop out with the help of manual agitation of the beans themselves.

About 1/2 to 2/3 way through first, don't be afraid t drop the heating element to 0 or 10%. The stock filter restricts the fan enough that the exothermic reaction and residual heat energy in the heating element and chamber will keep the temperature rising. It will take some experiences to get the feel of it, but it doesn't take long to understand the process and the machine as you have already seen.

[CyclingCraig]

For those of us who have been roasting at home for years it is sometimes hard to remember the excitement of those first roasts, but hearing your story brings it all back.

You really have no idea how much FUN I had and how COOL it was to roast my first batch (As I sit here at work drinking it). I really felt like a little kid playing with a brand new toy on Christmas morning, all the butterflies in the stomach, all the anticipation, it was AWESOME. I hope I can bring back more memories. My only problem is I don't go thru that much coffee, so I have to wait like 2 weeks before I roast my next batch... I HAVE to start drinking MORE coffee .

I have been asked so many times, "Which roster should I buy?" And for the most part the answer is a difficult one. I can say that if you choose a Hottop it is difficult to be disappointed.

Well, if it makes a difference YOUR reviews on your website made ALLLLLL the difference and was the main decision maker for me to choose my Hottop. The reviews(Gene, Hottop "B" and Hottop "P") had EVERYTHING I needed to feel I could make an informed decision. THANK YOU! for taking the time to do such in-depth reviews and post them.

It was pretty easy for my first roast, although like I said it felt like things REALLY started to happen fast between middle of first crack and when I ejected the beans. All the help here on HB and Randy's reviews help SO much in getting my first roast done without making charcoal!

[Beavis]

I, too, am thinking about taking the plunge. I just got done reading Kenneth Davids book, "Home Coffee Roasting". Good info although 4 years old so some of the machine reviews are a little dated. I also saw Randy's reviews and the "B" did tend to stand out.

Any regrets yet? Anything you would have done differently? May I ask what you paid for the "B"? Did you like Coffee Corral? Thanks much.

[Fullsack]

I'd like to "chime" in since me too I want to start roasting sometime next winter.

So far it's been mostly on Hottop on this thread.
What about Behmor or GeneCafe as a first roaster?
After lots of reading (even though I'm not sure to understand everything sometime )here's my options : Hottop "B" model, GeneCafe and Behmor(for those who have the chance to try it or at least understand how it works (profiles etc.)) Which of those 3 home-roasters is the one a newbie should choose for the best learning experience?
Manual control over automatization? GeneCafe over Hottop (Behmor being in between if I understand it's features)?

Thx

The biggest distinction between the HotTop and the Gene Cafe is: drum roaster, (the HotTop), vs fluid bed roaster, (the Gene). Fluid bed roasters roast beans by agitating them with pressure from hot air. This technology dries out the beans. Any more than 9 minutes of roasting with a Gene and you've got crap. A drum roaster has paddles that toss the beans through hot air. This process allows the beans to retain more moisture than beans that are levitated by hot air. A HotTop can roast beans for as long as 19 minutes and still produce a tasty roast.

I owned both of these machines at the same time. The HotTop is the hands down winner.

[AndyS]

The biggest distinction between the HotTop and the Gene Cafe is: drum roaster, (the HotTop), vs fluid bed roaster, (the Gene).

Oh puleeeeeese.

The Gene Cafe is not a fluid bed roaster. Hint: look for the big rotating drum.

Fluid bed roasters roast beans by agitating them with pressure from hot air. This technology dries out the beans.

News you can use: ALL coffee roasters dry out the beans.

[Fullsack]

The Gene Cafe is not a fluid bed roaster. Hint: look for the big rotating drum.

The "rotating drum" is just a gimmick. It doesn't accomplish any more than the stationary chamber on an Iroast2. The beans in the Gene are still roasted by blasts of hot air pressure, not the paddles of a drum dropping them through hot air.

Hint: drum roaster, look for the paddles. No paddles, not a drum roaster.

News you can use: ALL coffee roasters dry out the beans.

The rapid rate at which fluid bed roasters dry the beans is the killer.

[CyclingCraig]

I, too, am thinking about taking the plunge. I just got done reading Kenneth Davids book, "Home Coffee Roasting". Good info although 4 years old so some of the machine reviews are a little dated. I also saw Randy's reviews and the "B" did tend to stand out.

Any regrets yet? Anything you would have done differently? May I ask what you paid for the "B"? Did you like Coffee Corral? Thanks much.

Actually I was going to post something up. I did my SECOND roast last night!

NO REGRETS AT ALLLL! LOVE the hottop, but considering it is the ONLY roaster I have used (Let alone seen close up) and I have only roasted twice in my life(Last night included), I am OF COURSE an expert

But seriously I really like the Hottop, seems very well built and works great. Seems like a very heavy duty machine to me. It makes roasting for the first time newbie's pretty easy, to get decent results.

Last night I roasted the Organic Mexican that came free from CoffeeBeanCorral. It took about 9:30 minutes to get to first crack (Immediately turned heater down to 50% at this point), 1st crack lasted about 90 seconds. then about a 40 second pause before 2nd crack JUST started and I ejected the beans. So I took the beans just to first pops of second crack, and they seem lighter roast than my first try(Which was my intent, first roast went pretty far into 2nd crack). Seems to me like a nice chocolate brown (City to City+ ? I am guessing)

I am going to post a graph of my air temps and times when I have a chance to make one.

As for CoffeeBeanCorral, I had NO problems with then at all, I would definitely order from them again. They were great help before the purchase when I asked any questions, and they dropped shipped the unit so I got it VERY quickly. They didn't have any in stock when I ordered, so instead of them shipping the units to their store first, then ship back to me, they just had the distributor ship directly to me(Which was nice). It came with 5lbs of free green beans(2.5lbs they pick and 2.5 you pick) and a pair of "Hot" gloves.

So Overall, I my VERY HAPPY with my Hottop "B", and CoffeeBeanCorral.com was a very good experience for me.

[AndyS]

The "rotating drum" is just a gimmick. It doesn't accomplish any more than the stationary chamber on an Iroast2. The beans in the Gene are still roasted by blasts of hot air pressure, not the paddles of a drum dropping them through hot air.

This is puzzling. You'd almost think we're talking about two different roasters. When I look at Tom Owen's video of the Gene Cafe in action, it's obvious that the drum provides the agitation. As Tom explains, the roaster "separates heat source and agitation: mechanical agitation and hot air heat source -- excellent design."

The rapid rate at which fluid bed roasters dry the beans is the killer.

Besides personal opinion, can you please back up this statement with real data? Several years ago, Jim Schulman tested drum roasting vs fluid bed roasting. IIRC, when he got the roast profiles matched, it was very hard to tell which was which in blind testing.

Of course, that was a while ago. I'm not sure if Jim's opinion has changed since.

[Fullsack]

This is puzzling. You'd almost think we're talking about two different roasters. When I look at Tom Owen's video of the Gene Cafe in action, it's obvious that the drum provides the agitation. As Tom explains, the roaster "separates heat source and agitation: mechanical agitation and hot air heat source -- excellent design."

Tom Owen is one of the most respected people in the coffee business, but he sells these roasters, so you can't really cite him as an objective source.

Back to the original quibble. The Gene roasts beans using forced hot air. The beans in a Gene roast in about the same amount of time as an IRoast, Zack & Dani and a Fresh Roast, (fluid bed roasters), 9 minutes. Drum roasters from the HotTop all the way up to industrial roasters have an ideal roast time of around 16 or 17 minutes. The Gene Cafe company doesn't even call their roaster a drum roaster. If it is not a drum roaster then it is a fluid bed, unless they want to make up a new name for this type of roaster.

If you are right about drum vs. fluid bed then professional roasters every where will be thrilled to learn that they can produce a good roast in 9 minutes

:-)

Besides personal opinion, can you please back up this statement with real data? Several years ago, Jim Schulman tested drum roasting vs fluid bed roasting. IIRC, when he got the roast profiles matched, it was very hard to tell which was which in blind testing.

Of course, that was a while ago. I'm not sure if Jim's opinion has changed since.

Jim's opinion is one I greatly respect, so I don't know how to reconcile the different expereiences. When I was roasting with both the HotTop and the Gene, I would roast for friends. Without knowing which roaster their coffee came from, the HotTop batch was always the preferred roast. I did this type of testing for almost a year, trying to improve the Gene roasts with different profiles. There are a lot of my posts about the Gene testing on the CG roasting forum to back this up.

http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/...Date&Form_Submit=1

http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/...Date&Form_Submit=1

http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/...Date&Form_Submit=1

http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/...Date&Form_Submit=1

[another_jim]

Hi Doug,

Thanks for the compliments

We all need to adjust our classifications on roasters, they don't come in drum and hot air. The most common design for large roasters is mechanical agitation plus hot air; check out the Probat site if you want to see what I mean. Even in the world of shop roasters, most have a lot of airflow and roast a lot more like the Gene than the Hottop. Only sample roasters do completely without forced airflow.

However, the devil is in the details. In particular, if you monitor three variables during the roast, a good proxy for bean temperature, a good proxy for environmental temperature, and a good proxy for airflow, you will probably have a good predictor of what the roast will taste like. Although a strict comparison of bean profiles gets close to predicting the outcome, variations in airflow and environmental temperature also count.

I currently use a P1, a so called primitive air roaster. However, I use variable insulation, variable airflow, and variable source temperatures to control my roasts. I mostly do "comfort food" roasts, using a very high airflow to bean ratio (high reynolds numbers on the bed), a huge amount of insulation, and medium length profiles (around 12 minutes) to get the environmental temperatures down as low as possible, preserve all the sugars, roast out all the green flavors, and avoid any darker distillate flavors. This is a bit like made for Parker California wine, but it does allow me to make lush espresso from very unlikely beans. So far it's not been optimal for the deeper chocolate flavors, or huge buttery body, where higher environmental tempos are probably mandatory, but it's where I start.

The problem is that I have too many variables now. It'll take me a few more lifetimes to come up with roasting recipes that use all of them optimally.

[Martin]

- If I get greens from Paradise will my roast be anything at ALL close to what I get from them already roasted,

I've bought lots of Paradise greens. On average both blends and S0s seem to roast more evenly than comparable purchases at other vendors mentioned in this thread. Can't say that this is a big difference, but noticeable. OTOH, I'm not a loyalist, and the next time a brilliant Harar becomes available elsewhere, I'll jump on that. I agree that it's tough to consistently roast as well as purchasing already-roasted; but I'm closer to that goal now than I was 5 years ago when I started roasting. For me, that bumpy improvement trajectory is at least as satisfying as getting the absolute optimal cup.

[CoffeeOwl]

Hi!
Can someone provide some link or a photo of a drum roaster paddles?
After looking carefully at Gene, I'd like to see the inside of a drum roaster to compare and decide on my own.
Thx