Quandry on espresso machine..... (HX, double.... or single boiler like the Alexia?)

[Genesis]

I've recently bought a Macap M4 stepless, and love it. I only thought my old "consumer style" burr grinder was good. Bah.

Now, the question is, what machine do I buy to go with it?

Here's the profile of what I drink...

Typically, 1 or 2 espressos daily. I'm the only coffee drinker in the house. I tend to (today) make a kinda "diluted" espresso; a double but with a bit more water (stretched?), perhaps 3-4oz total.

I do not do lattes and cappas, as I have mild Lactose issues - so for me, I will not be making milk drinks. I might make them for a girlfriend or if entertaining, but since I won't be doing them daily, I'm unlikely to ever get real good at the milk side of it - just no reason for me to put in the time to learn it.

On the other hand, the espresso part of things is another matter. I'd love to be able to pull real triples and drink those instead of the "half coffee" garbage that I am forced into with the fairly cruddy machine I have now. (The scary part is that my "half coffee" shots are in fact better than most of them from the local green franchise! Those guys are truly scary; half of what I buy there I classify as truly undrinkable.)

I tend to buy my beans from a place that roasts Hawaiian stuff, usually single-source (Kona), although I also drink some decaf (otherwise after the 4th or 5th cup I'm pinging and jittering REAL bad) - but again, the decaf is typically a hawaiian coffee. (Maui Coffee Roasters). They roast and ship. I do not have a local source for fresh-roasted beans, so I'm forced to have it sent from somewhere. Their coffee has been consistent and good for the last 5+ years.

If I buy a machine that is kept on, it also becomes a convenient source for hot water, which is useful. My kid likes the "cup of noodles" stuff and being able to pull the water from the machine without having to nuke a pyrex measuring cup full is a nice side benefit. Ditto if a guest would like a tea or something.

I'm not so much budget limited as I am not wanting to buy twice. That would REALLY get me upset. The M4 is likely a "you'll die before you wear it out" type of purchase, and I want the machine to be more or less the same sort of thing. 10 years is my minimum expected service life before I want to be shopping again.

Finally, I have severe hard water issues here. If I buy a plumbed in machine I have to drill a solid-surface countertop (not hard), find the fittings to make the hole look nice (not terribly hard either) and then deal with, probably, an RO cartridge + ion donation filter (not so nice and big - there goes one side of my under-sink storage area as those are typically 3 10" long cartridges between the RO and donation system!) Pour-over means bottled water. If I try to run straight tap water I'll be trashing the boiler for sure - my hot water heater produces calcium ROCKS within a couple of years of installation (water hardness is simply off the scale.)

Oh, and finally, I want something that will run on a 15A circuit. Adding a dedicated 20A is a non-starter primarily due to the fact that the breaker panel it would have to come from is full which makes for BIG BUCKS to do that retrofit.

I've narrowed things down to:

1. Alexia. Single boiler, no HX. How's temperature stability on that machine and how easy is to adjust brew temperature? Are you just plain screwed with that (since there's no HX, you can surf temperatures) unless you're willing to PID the thing?

2. Vetrano. Plumb in, HX, rotary. Quiet, nice, insulated boiler, temperature surf required but allows shot temperature control this way. Better valves (steam and water) than the Alexia.

3. S1 VII. Plumb in, double boiler, rotary. Quiet, nice, can disable steam boiler overnight but leave brew on (no wait in the morning but much less energy consumption and yet you can get a tea or hot soup water instantly), PIDed from the factory, 7-day timer can be ordered with the machine. Chris is currently out but more will be coming in within the week.

Am I missing one of the choices I should be considering?

(FWIW I also put this over at Geek but their web site is awfully slow and I've since bought the grinder... figured I'd see what the opinions looked like over here)

[RapidCoffee]

I've recently bought a Macap M4 stepless, and love it. I only thought my old "consumer style" burr grinder was good. Bah.
Now, the question is, what machine do I buy to go with it?
...
(FWIW I also put this over at Geek but their web site is awfully slow and I've since bought the grinder... figured I'd see what the opinions looked like over here)

Hi Genesis/geekdiver. Dan normally discourages cross-posting, but you've been up front about it and obviously done your homework, so...

The machines you mention are all excellent choices in their class. If you never (or seldom) make milk-based espresso drinks, a single boiler machine such as the Alexia would be ideal. You can order it with a PID from Chris' Coffee Service, or adjust the boiler temperature via a thermostat (or pressurestat? sorry, I've never used an Alexia).
____
John

[HB]

I agree, given your criteria, the Alexia with PID would be on my short list. I've not had the opportunity to evaluate it, but I assume it would perform similar to a PID'd Isomac Amica / Zaffiro, which has a good track record. Another possibility off the beaten track is a lever machine. They're great for low volume espresso-only production and it doesn't get much simpler in terms of construction / reliability. Tim offered this sound bite advice in Has any one tried different Lever Machines?

These home-consumer lever machines are available retail.

MANUAL LEVER
La Pavoni Europiccola & Professional
Olympia Cremina
Gaggia Achille

SPRING-LEVER
Elektra MicroCasa a Leva
Ponte Vecchio Export
Ponte Vecchio Lusso

They are all competent machines for a one or two person household. But if you expect to use the machine to make milk-based espresso drinks for a small dinner party (six people, say) then the Ponte Vecchio Lusso (~$700) and Gaggia Achille (~$1000) stand out as the better choices.

Regards
Timo

Levers also have a reputation for eliciting wonders from single origin coffees; KarlSchneider has eloquently expounded on this point many times.

[Genesis]

Will a lever be able to pull double+ volumes though? Aren't they "single shot" deals?

The other question I have related to E61 group SINGLE boiler designs relates to that issue - wasn't the E61 group designed for thermosyphon on a HX machine? That is, am I going from the frying pan into the fire by doing a single-boiler E61, in that the group is simply not designed for that and thus I'm going to now have LOW temperature issues rather than high?

That's the question I've not been able to get a clean answer to - the E61/HX "dance" stuff has to do with superheated water in the heat exchanger - the GROUP isn't too hot, the HX is. But - with the E61 thermsyphon coming off BOILER water, its now going to be too COLD, right? And all that brass ain't gonna warm up quickly.

If I can't pull two shots back-to-back with reasonable repeatability on temperature, then all of this PID stuff is for naught. That is, if I have to compensate for "droop" (by setting the boiler temperature high) yet that "droop" disappears from shot 1 to shot, say, 3 or 4, then I'm not doing myself any favors here.

If that's the case, then aren't I better off just dealing with the HX "dance" stuff, bucking up and buying a Vetrano, or popping for the extra $500 and doing the VII, getting rid of the E61 link to the HX and buying a machine with a group bolted to the brew boiler and designed for that up front?

Problem is where I live (Florida Gulf Coast) there are no places I can go try any of these machines out, and I know nobody who has one. There are, however, times I want to hop the counter at the local green place and tamp/pull my own!

[another_jim]

First off, the boiler is not a good source of hot water -- within a week of draining and refilling a boiler, the dissolved solids will be up with a few 100 ppm of metals. This is not a health hazard, but it ain't gourmet water. If you really want an espresso insta-hot, get a small CMA machine (Astoria or Wega), which have heat-exchangers on the hot water taps. A regular insta-hot is easier.

The ueberprecise temperature stuff is waaaay overdone. A dual boiler (if you're doing cappas) or a big single boiler (if you aren't) is more convenient if you are using one coffee at a time, since you don't need to bother with a flush routine. If you have several coffees that require clearly different temperatures, or want to try two or three shots in row at different temperatures, an HX is better, since they can be flushed to (roughly) any temperature you please, once you know how to do it.

However, all this is pretty academic -- straight Kona is not good for espresso; and the better the machine extracts, the worse it'll taste. Try some proper coffees, preferably espresso blends, first.

[RapidCoffee]

The other question I have related to E61 group SINGLE boiler designs relates to that issue - wasn't the E61 group designed for thermosyphon on a HX machine? That is, am I going from the frying pan into the fire by doing a single-boiler E61, in that the group is simply not designed for that and thus I'm going to now have LOW temperature issues rather than high?

That's the question I've not been able to get a clean answer to - the E61/HX "dance" stuff has to do with superheated water in the heat exchanger - the GROUP isn't too hot, the HX is. But - with the E61 thermsyphon coming off BOILER water, its now going to be too COLD, right? And all that brass ain't gonna warm up quickly.

Excellent question, and something I've been meaning to post about. Perhaps others with experience can chime in, but my take on it is this: an E61 single boiler thermosyphon should be designed and tuned to work best when the machine is in brew mode. A short flush should bring the grouphead up to temp, similar to the flush on the double boiler E61 Brewtus.

If so, when you switch the boiler to steam mode, the grouphead will gradually overheat. However, this will not become an issue until you pull the next shot. It takes some time for the boiler to cool back down to brew temp; the grouphead should also cool down during this time.

So achieving stable and repeatable brew temps on a PID'd single boiler like the Alexia should be straightforward, even for successive shots. But this is merely educated guesswork on my part.
____
John

[Genesis]

First off, the boiler is not a good source of hot water -- within a week of draining and refilling a boiler, the dissolved solids will be up with a few 100 ppm of metals. This is not a health hazard, but it ain't gourmet water. If you really want an espresso insta-hot, get a small CMA machine (Astoria or Wega), which have heat-exchangers on the hot water taps. A regular insta-hot is easier.

Well, an "insta-hot" is a HUGE energy pig. I'm stuck with one with the Espresso machine, but TWO will do nasty things to my power bill (especially considering that I have to pay for AC to get rid of the heat 90+% of the year!)

The ueberprecise temperature stuff is waaaay overdone. A dual boiler (if you're doing cappas) or a big single boiler (if you aren't) is more convenient if you are using one coffee at a time, since you don't need to bother with a flush routine. If you have several coffees that require clearly different temperatures, or want to try two or three shots in row at different temperatures, an HX is better, since they can be flushed to (roughly) any temperature you please, once you know how to do it.

Ok.

However, all this is pretty academic -- straight Kona is not good for espresso; and the better the machine extracts, the worse it'll taste. Try some proper coffees, preferably espresso blends, first.

Interesting.... time to find some good espresso coffee then. There's some stuff that Maui Coffee Roasters (I've been in their physical shop in Lahina, and they make damn impressive stuff in there) have specifically for this.... their description says its a multi-source blend (theirs, of course.) I'll try that and see what I think. If I don't like theirs, I'll try something else. It all has to be mail order unfortunately so I need to deal with someone who will roast just before shipment so its fresh....

I've been darn impressed with what the Kona produces out of my cheapie Krups with the GOOD grinder (it was ok with the Pavoni originally too, but that's degraded... and now I have a comparison point - not good!)....

Given my profile of use perhaps the Alexia is the machine of choice.

If I have a friend who wants a Latte or Cappa, is there a big issue if I pull the shot into an insulated shot glass and then heat it up to steam? The delay is only a minute or so, right? Or is it critical to "build" the drink immediately after the espresso is pulled? (I'm a newbie at the Latte thing since I drink the coffee straight myself)

[Rainman]

Interesting.... time to find some good espresso coffee then. There's some stuff that Maui Coffee Roasters (I've been in their physical shop in Lahina, and they make damn impressive stuff in there) have specifically for this.... their description says its a multi-source blend (theirs, of course.) I'll try that and see what I think. If I don't like theirs, I'll try something else. It all has to be mail order unfortunately so I need to deal with someone who will roast just before shipment so its fresh....

I've been darn impressed with what the Kona produces out of my cheapie Krups with the GOOD grinder (it was ok with the Pavoni originally too, but that's degraded... and now I have a comparison point - not good!)....

Wait till you try something good from Guatemala, Brazil, Ethiopia, Galapagos, and blend them... Heck, an Ethiopian Harrar will likely knock your socks off all by itself!

Given my profile of use perhaps the Alexia is the machine of choice.

If I have a friend who wants a Latte or Cappa, is there a big issue if I pull the shot into an insulated shot glass and then heat it up to steam? The delay is only a minute or so, right? Or is it critical to "build" the drink immediately after the espresso is pulled? (I'm a newbie at the Latte thing since I drink the coffee straight myself)

I'm sure the pro's are quite a bit faster, but I usually just let the shot pour into the cup(s), then it takes me at least 2 minutes or so to steam milk. I don't think it's that critical if you're going to dilute the shot with milk.

Ray

[Genesis]

Makes sense...

Anyone know how good the temperature control is on a stock Alexia? Is it worth the extra $225 to have a PID on it?

[Marshall]

Makes sense...

Anyone know how good the temperature control is on a stock Alexia? Is it worth the extra $225 to have a PID on it?

Assuming it's like my Isomac Zaffiro, it's quite tolerable, unless you are very demanding (I'm very demanding). My PID'd Zaffiro holds its temperature quite well in the boiler and at the brewhead. But, don't overlook the advantage of PID for easy temperature adjustments for different blends. A change of 1C is noticeable, and 2C is very noticeable. I have kept notes on my favorite temperatures for about 10 different blends, and then just make the adjustment each time I change from one to another.

[timo888]

If I buy a machine that is kept on, it also becomes a convenient source for hot water, which is useful. My kid likes the "cup of noodles" stuff and being able to pull the water from the machine without having to nuke a pyrex measuring cup full is a nice side benefit. Ditto if a guest would like a tea or something.

Off-topic, I know but for tea made with water from an espresso-machine's boiler



Regards
Timo

"How to "brew" the perfect cup of tea."

[HB]

Excellent question, and something I've been meaning to post about. Perhaps others with experience can chime in, but my take on it is this: an E61 single boiler thermosyphon should be designed and tuned to work best when the machine is in brew mode. A short flush should bring the grouphead up to temp, similar to the flush on the double boiler E61 Brewtus.

I agree for the most part. The non-HX E61s do in fact idle cold and need a flush.. wait... flush... wait... pull if you want its most repeatable brew temperature. Otherwise the first shot or two will be sour. The HX E61s are the opposite: Without a flush or two, the first shots will overshoot their desired brew temperature (caveat: despite the similarities of E61 groups, they do not behave precisely the same; you must adapt your routine to the specific machine for optimal performance).

But, don't overlook the advantage of PID for easy temperature adjustments for different blends. A change of 1C is noticeable, and 2C is very noticeable.

Yikes, I'd say so! A delta of 2C is almost 4F, which nearly covers the full range of the brew temperatures I use (198-203F). Although Eric's E61 thermocouple adapter allows for repeatable brew temperatures within 1F, I've settled in practice on three temperatures for my espressos (low 198, medium 201, high 203). For the metric people out there, that roughly corresponds to 92, 94, and 95 Celsius.

[RapidCoffee]

Off-topic, I know but for tea made with water from an espresso-machine's boiler...

Ditto that. There are so many good ways to heat fresh water in the kitchen that a hot water tap on a home espresso machine becomes a supernumerary appendage. A thermo pot like this recently received raves on the "other" site...
____
John

[Marshall]

Ditto that. There are so many good ways to heat fresh water in the kitchen that a hot water tap on a home espresso machine becomes a supernumerary appendage. A thermo pot like this recently received raves on the "other" site...

We make all our tea and presspot coffee with one of those. At first my tea-addicted wife thought it was a silly nuisance gift from her gadget-happy husband. Now she can't live without the Zojirushi. And unlike an Insta-hot, you can fill it with your favorite bottled water. I think Barry Jarrett originally recommended it on alt.coffee.

[Genesis]

So... back to the point, is the consensus that I do - or don't - need the PID?

Is the PID the only way to be able to, on the Alexia, get different temperatures for extraction? I'm correct that "temperature surfing" (aka the way its done on a HX) won't work with a single boiler, right?

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is if the $225 difference is worth spending up front or not. I CAN add the PID myself in the future (I'm quite competent to do that sort of electronic work) but I'm not sure at all that its cost effective to do this on my own down the road, if I decide I need to..... (I can get the PID controller easily enough and SSRs and thermocouples are available from Mouser and Digikey, so its not like its difficult to do - I'd just need to either do the metalwork to mount it or buy an external project box and mount that.

If I'm going to be stuck with a sour (or worse, bitter!) shot if I DON'T spend the money on the PID, well, then the choice is obvious...... it it helps, at this point its highly likely I will be experimenting with different coffees as well.

[Marshall]

So... back to the point, is the consensus that I do - or don't - need the PID?

Why do you need a consensus? There are different opinions. You decide.

Is the PID the only way to be able to, on the Alexia, get different temperatures for extraction? I'm correct that "temperature surfing" (aka the way its done on a HX) won't work with a single boiler, right?

Temperature surfing was invented by Greg Scace for his single boiler Silvia. You count the seconds from when the heater light clicks on (or off) until you reach your favorite temperature, then repeat that.

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is if the $225 difference is worth spending up front or not. I CAN add the PID myself in the future (I'm quite competent to do that sort of electronic work) but I'm not sure at all that its cost effective to do this on my own down the road, if I decide I need to..... (I can get the PID controller easily enough and SSRs and thermocouples are available from Mouser and Digikey, so its not like its difficult to do - I'd just need to either do the metalwork to mount it or buy an external project box and mount that.

Almost anyone with decent instructions can add a PID that hangs off the side. It will work quite well. To do an internal installation requires skill and the right tools.

[RapidCoffee]

So... back to the point, is the consensus that I do - or don't - need the PID?

Is the PID the only way to be able to, on the Alexia, get different temperatures for extraction? I'm correct that "temperature surfing" (aka the way its done on a HX) won't work with a single boiler, right?
...
If I'm going to be stuck with a sour (or worse, bitter!) shot if I DON'T spend the money on the PID, well, then the choice is obvious...... it it helps, at this point its highly likely I will be experimenting with different coffees as well.

OK, back on point:
You originally listed three espresso machines, each arguably best in class at their respective price points, each highly capable of producing consistently fine espresso in the hands of a skilled barista. No, you don't need a PID. You can tweak the brew temperature settings on a single or double boiler directly, and indirectly on an HX machine. The PID will be more accurate at maintaining temp than a thermostat/pressurestat, but it's certainly less important than developing a good set of barista skills.

You can temp surf a single boiler by starting the pump at different points during the heating cycle. This is quite different from flushing overheated water from an HX.
____
John

[timo888]

How about something like this, if you steam milk only rarely?

http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/isomac/isomachexagon.htm#hexagon

[Genesis]

OK, back on point:
You originally listed three espresso machines, each arguably best in class at their respective price points, each highly capable of producing consistently fine espresso in the hands of a skilled barista. No, you don't need a PID. You can tweak the brew temperature settings on a single or double boiler directly, and indirectly on an HX machine. The PID will be more accurate at maintaining temp than a thermostat/pressurestat, but it's certainly less important than developing a good set of barista skills.

You can temp surf a single boiler by starting the pump at different points during the heating cycle. This is quite different from flushing overheated water from an HX.
____
John

Ok, so it sounds like it comes down to the following:

1. WITHOUT the PID on a single-boiler, adjusting brew temperature means removing a cover and diddling the thermostat, OR "surfing" the heating cycle (which means either waiting for the heater to come on, or forcing it on by pulling new water into it via a flush.) Both can be done but its not something that gives me a quick way to do a "I want to raise the temperature 2F on this shot to see if it gets rid of the sour I'm tasting" sort of thing.

2. WITH the PID, this is a matter of pushing a couple of buttons and then either flushing the overheated water out/waiting for it to cool, or waiting for the temp to come up if it was lower. This makes "dialing in" the machine for a new/different blend much faster.

So if I anticipate changing coffees with some regularity, or if I'm going to have two that I alternate (e.g. a decaf for the afternoons/evenings and a "natural" blend that I use in the mornings) then I probably want the PID, because otherwise getting the temp "right" for both is going to be a royal pain, and FAR more trouble than the same adjustment with an HX machine (made through the cooling flush)

If that's the case, then in my situation then it appears that I have to decide between the PID'd Alexia and an Anita, both of which have the same cost.

The Anita forces me to use flush control for the boiler temperature, but I have it without added electronics and I've also got steam without wait (which is worth little to me, but its inherently "free" in its design.) I also always have fresh water coming from the reservoir for the coffee, since the HX water capacity is minuscule and its flushed anyway, where with the Alexia I have potentially older boiler water in the machine (especially if I only pull a couple of shots a day)

Maybe the HX isn't such a bad idea......

[JimG]

Because I am considering putting a PID on an HX machine, I have done a (dangerously?) small amount of research on this subject recently. Here's what I think I have learned so far (posted mostly for Genesis' benefit, and partly to check my understandings and find out what I am overlooking).

In Favor of the Pressurestat

The pressurestat on the boiler of an HX machine will control the boiler temperature within a reasonably narrow band - not as tightly as a PID, but more tightly than the bimetallic clickers on most single boilers.

The relationship between brew water temperature and boiler temperature on an HX is not one-to-one. This diminishes the negative effects of the pressurestat deadband.

Some smart people have told me that pressure changes lead temperature changes, a little, in saturated steam at this temp/pressure. This theoretically gives the pressurestat an opportunity to react more quickly to a disturbance.

The pressurestat (nearly) immediately switches the heater "full on" to recover when it senses a pressure drop. If your PID is not tuned fairly aggressively, then there will be a lag time before the PID applies full power after it senses a temperature drop.

In Favor of the PID

Elimination of the noise of the pressurestat.

Removing the pressurestat means removing a common maintenance item.

The PID can probably be tuned to hold boiler temperature steady within ±0.5F, as compared to maybe ±2F ? with the pressurestat.

The PID allows very convenient temperature changes.

Digital displays with red and green LED's are very cool to look at.

Bottom Line

Adding PID control to a traditional single boiler machine that is controlled by a bimetallic clicker makes a big change. Doesn't make a perfect machine by a long shot, but drastically improves it.

Adding PID control to an HX that has a good pstat, and a reasonable means of adjusting it, would have less effect on the performance of the machine.

Genesis - I am still on the fence regarding the added value of a PID to an HX machine. But I hope this helps you.

Jim