Quandry on espresso machine..... (HX, double.... or single boiler like the Alexia?) - Page 2

[Genesis]

I wasn't considering putting a PID on a HX machine, for that reason - I don't think its going to make a large (and possibly not even a material) difference.

The question now comes down to, it appears, whether or not I do a PID'd single-boiler or an HX machine. It looks like WITHOUT the PID on a single-boiler I'm going to either have to diddle it and settle for one "primary" coffee I use, or be frustrated over the long haul. With the PID that disappears.

But for what the PID costs on the Alexia, I can have the same build quality in the Anita, which is, essentially, the same machine but with an HX (steam wands appear similar if not identical, etc)

And once I go there, then I get down to the "do I spend $400 more and go with the Vetrano, and plumb it in" question. I think the answer there is "no", but not quite sure yet.

It is looking increasingly likely tho that the Alexia (with the PID) is less competitive in that I give up the immediate steam (even if I don't intend to use it often at all) for nothing, when one looks at the price of those two options.

[HB]

Because I am considering putting a PID on an HX machine, I have done a (dangerously?) small amount of research on this subject recently. Here's what I think I have learned so far (posted mostly for Genesis' benefit, and partly to check my understandings and find out what I am overlooking).

Thanks for the great summation, Jim.

The only thing I would add is that a PID'd HX would easily allow "espresso centric" boiler pressures. Most HX owners choose the boiler pressure as a tradeoff between the desired brew temperature, steam quality, recovery time between shots, flush amount, and flush frequency. Ken's extensive discussion Temperature Stability . . . . from a Heat Exchanger demonstrated that one can use a PID's easy adjustment ability to simplify the flush routine and deliver enhanced temperature accuracy.

This point has come up frequently enough that I added a section to How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love HXs entitled What is the "right" boiler pressure setting? The relevant portion is excerpted below:

Most home baristas set their espresso machine's pressurestat somewhere between 0.8 and 1.2 bar (measured at the top of the cycle) and then determine the flush amount to bring the group to the target temperature. I prefer the pressurestat setting on the lower end of the acceptable range because it slows the overheating of the water in the heat exchanger. The drawbacks are that it diminishes recovery time and especially steam production, some espresso machines to the point where they no longer can create microfoam well. But if you're preparing drinks only for yourself and perhaps a couple friends, the lower end of the boiler pressure range is easier to manage temperature-wise than the upper end. The barista's job is easier in the former case because the rebound time is long enough that the difference in brew temperature between a delay of 15 seconds and 25 seconds after the flush and the beginning of the extraction isn't dramatic. In contrast, a miscalculation of ten seconds risks producing an over-temperature extraction (very dark initial crema, black edges) for a pressurestat setting at the high end of the acceptable range.

[JimG]

But for what the PID costs on the Alexia, I can have the same build quality in the Anita, which is, essentially, the same machine but with an HX (steam wands appear similar if not identical, etc)

And once I go there, then I get down to the "do I spend $400 more and go with the Vetrano, and plumb it in" question. I think the answer there is "no", but not quite sure yet.

It is a slippery slope, isn't it?

To get price separation from the Anita, you would have to be considering Venus or Silvia for your single boiler alternates, I think. If you can live without pre-infusion, either of those machines, with PID, can give consistent brew temperatures and good espresso.

BTW, if you can't put your new machine on its own 20A circuit, you should try and put it on a different circuit from your incandescent lights. Otherwise you will notice every time the heater is switched, which will likely be once per second if you go with the PID.

Jim

[Genesis]

It is a slippery slope, isn't it?

To get price separation from the Anita, you would have to be considering Venus or Silvia for your single boiler alternates, I think. If you can live without pre-infusion, either of those machines, with PID, can give consistent brew temperatures and good espresso.

Yeah, but I'm not considering the Venus or Silvia..... my "baseline" was the Alexia. And the more I cogitate and talk on the forum here about it, the more I think that doesn't make sense when I can own an Anita for the same money as the Alexia w/PID, and have the temperature stability (almost) of a PID'd machine (with more work on my part via flushing).

Once that decision is taken, then the question becomes whether the better controls (non-compression valves, no-burn wand, etc) and plumb-in is worth $400, PLUS the cost of the water treatment so I don't trash the boiler. If so, then the Vetrano is the right choice - that probably puts me in the $1500-1600 territory (since there's additional costs) BUT in a year I eat $100 of that in water - so we're back to a "real" $400 difference.

I think.

$400-500 is not a trivial difference though.....

And that's back to my PRIMARY concern - I don't want to buy twice and will be quite unhappy if I end up doing so..... which is why I'm arguing with myself over this one. (I mean, I suppose I could just settle it and buy a GS3, right? )

BTW, if you can't put your new machine on its own 20A circuit, you should try and put it on a different circuit from your incandescent lights. Otherwise you will notice every time the heater is switched, which will likely be once per second if you go with the PID.

Jim

Not a snowball's chance in hell of a separate circuit due to a full panel. Easy access to where a new box would have to go (or use the existing outlet and run a new wire) but no place to put the breaker in the panel, so that's out.

Not sure what's shared with the outlet that its gotta be plugged into. Better check that I guess...

[RapidCoffee]

And the more I cogitate and talk on the forum here about it, the more I think that doesn't make sense when I can own an Anita for the same money as the Alexia w/PID, and have the temperature stability (almost) of a PID'd machine (with more work on my part via flushing)

HX machines are generally touted for their ability to steam on demand at a reasonable price (relative to double boilers). They are not known for great temp stability/reproducibility (two slightly different things). This tends to be less of an issue for milk-based espresso drinks than for straight espresso shots.

Please don't misunderstand this as an argument against heat exchangers. I love my Vetrano, and in general I think HX machines represent an innovative solution to the problem of providing different temps for brewing and steaming. But if you're an espresso-only guy, frothing milk just isn't an issue. The ability to dial in a specific brew temp for a specific espresso blend, however, may be.

All other things being equal, if I had to bet on brew temp stability/reproducibility, I'd pick the PID'd single boiler over the HX machine. But who knows? With appropriate feedback from a Scace thermofilter or Eric's E61 thermocouple, you just might prove me wrong.
____
John

[another_jim]

I strongly disagree with John on exact temperatures. This is a question that splits the coffee community; so you'll find the people lining up one way or the other. I have neither tasted nor seen any even remotely convincing evidence that anything more than cool/medium/hot shot selection has even remotely the effect of grind, dose, or the particular brewhead and brew path. By the last I mean this -- two shots at slightly different temperatures and pressure on the same machine and basket taste much closer than two shots at completely identical pressure and temperatures from two different machines or baskets (in many cases, the basket counts for more than the machine).

I know this sounds anti-technological; but it isn't. Pressure and temperature measurements are simply environmental variables, they don't tell you how the the extraction is proceeding inside the basket and the puck, they just give the operator some rough and ready levers on how to affect it.

[HB]

By the last I mean this -- two shots at slightly different temperatures and pressure on the same machine and basket taste much closer than two shots at completely identical pressure and temperatures from two different machines or baskets (in many cases, the basket counts for more than the machine).... Pressure and temperature measurements are simply environmental variables, they don't tell you how the the extraction is proceeding inside the basket and the puck, they just give the operator some rough and ready levers on how to affect it.

Amen! The merits of rock solid temperature and brew pressure are attractive from an engineering viewpoint because they're so easily measured. Having carefully evaluated non-traditional designs like the Elektra A3 and Gaggia Achille, I'm no longer convinced they are primary influencers of in-cup results, they're just the most easily quantified.

[RapidCoffee]

I strongly disagree with John on exact temperatures.

Um, not sure that we disagree. I've got no temp measurement equipment in daily use, and use intuition rather than a thermocouple to guide my extractions.

I stated that the relative temp stability of a PID'd single boiler should make it easier to hit a specific brew temp than an HX. Implications? Suffice to say that, as an HX fan, I've found myself on the other side of the brew temp argument more often than not, usually with DB devotees.
____
John

[another_jim]

Um, not sure that we disagree.

Guess not -- If I had a huge single boiler machine in the class of the Alexia, I'd probably want a PID, since surfing it for different temperatures would take forever.

[Genesis]

As the worm turns.....

I've decided to pop for the Vetrano and placed the order this afternoon with Chris'......

Now the waiting game until it gets here... hopefully by the end of the week I'll be pulling shots through it.

[CyclingCraig]

WOW! Fast upgrade path

I actually just recently went thru something similar... I went from looking into a Silvia, then up'in to the Alexia. and finally ended up with an Anita. This was in about of 1.5 weeks of going back and forth.

I ordered from Chris, and my experience with them was AWESOME... It shipped the same day and came packed great.

I am actually enjoying a shot from the Anita RIGHT NOW. I LOVE my machine, you made a GREAT choice

One thing I can attest to though is BEANS, BEANS, BEANS... I was trying to use a local places beans and COULDN'T get ANYTHING like the pulls I see here. I ordered some stuff from Paradise and WHAT a difference! Pour and timing was SOOO much better. I still have plenty of issues to work out, a good machine DOES NOT mean good espresso(Rats ). My espresso's are FAR from where they should be with my machine, but I am working on it. But I am learning it takes A LOT of time to learn this art!

Good luck and CONGRATULATIONS on a GREAT machine.

(ps.. who wants to come over now and show me how this machine should REALLY perform )

-Craig

[cannonfodder]

Can't say I get to Somerset often but I do occasionally go to Newark. Take a look at the Dialing in a new espresso machine, a step by step guide.

[Genesis]

Yep - I read that already and will be spending quite some time (likely a week or more) getting the thing "dialed in" not only to learn to use it reasonably but also to get everything set and working to my preference..... and improving my barista skills, of course.

The latter might take a while

[CyclingCraig]

Can't say I get to Somerset often but I do occasionally go to Newark. Take a look at the Dialing in a new espresso machine, a step by step guide.

HAHAHA...thanks... Newark is only like 30 minutes from me

As for your Thread.. WOW! I have been following that since day one... watching your videos over and over and reading your explanations. It is AWESOME instructions for a newbie like myself. Thank you so much for taking the time and effort in putting that together and updating it.

Actually the past 2 or 3 days, I have gotten MUCH better results. I have to just keep working at it. This morning I pulled 3 pretty good ones in a row. (Then spilled the drip tray ALL OVER me and floor as I accidentally pulled it out as a towel got caught on it , and a small dent in the corner of it )
-Craig

[Genesis]

My Vetrano showed up today, along with the water filter setup.

It took me about an hour to mount the cartridges, run the John Guest fittings, and get it all hooked up on the counter.

Turned it on, allowed the boiler to fill, and then let it go idle to warm up.

As soon as the "ready" light went on I couldn't resist - I loaded up some beans in the M4, ground it up, flushed the group to get it hot (since it was still dead cold), dosed, tamped and pulled one through the naked I'd bought with the machine.

Not horrible looking. Too fast though. Ok, dial it down on the grinder some and try again. Much better. A sip says.... sour - SINK time! Expected; its cold. And oh, what's this? 11.5 bar on the brew gauge?! Aieeee! Off comes the cover, twist pressure regulator, while we're at it dial down the pressurestat to 1.0 bar and button it back up. Oh, build quality? Who can argue with anything in there? All the people garfing about pressurestats carboning up - how? This thing has a 25 amp SSR in there controlling the boiler (!) so the pressurestat contacts sink a couple of milliamps. They sure won't carbon up that way. Everything's neat and done right. Nice!

I wait an hour so it can warm up good...... come back, try again.

Oh my God is that good!

Hmmmmm.... ok, that was the coffee (a Kona blend) that I've been using in my old machine and plenty of folks say that's not really a good choice for espresso. I hear 'ya - I got some Dolce in the other day.... bawhahahaha. Out comes the Dolce, grind up enough for a shot, flush, pull one..... bitter and slow - ok, too hot and fine.

Flush a bit longer, dial the grinder a bit, grind another one, redose, tamp, pull.

Holy Sheeat! And that wasn't even good "looking" - had a sprayer in the middle of the extract for a second or two, but my God, the TASTE! The mouthfeel was incredible and the crema and coffee had all sorts of hints of chocolate and nutty flavors. Just a touch bitter.... but considering that I've pulled less than a dozen shots through this thing, I've not scrubbied the PFs and I'm totally new to the machine that ain't bad!

Score one for the Vetrano..... what a toy. Off to play with the steamer and see if I can make decent microfoam with this thing.....

Only complaint - I didn't buy the drain fitting for the pan and should have. While the flushing routine is easy and I seem to have no problem with it being very repeatable that tray - big as it is - fills up FAST.

Gonna do that and run a tube to the sink - its all of about 3" from the edge of the machine, so "drip drain" will work just fine with a bit of PVC, and be almost totally hidden under the machine.

I stuck a nice Intermatic digital HD (15 amp rated) timer on the outlet, and set it to shut off at 10 PM and come on at 5:00.... so it'll be ready in the morning and on all day, but shut down about the time I head off to bed......

No regrets whatsoever. An incredible machine.

The plumb-in is IMHO huge. I'd be honked off if I had to pour over with the way I was going through water getting the flush I wanted......

[RapidCoffee]

Score one for the Vetrano..... what a toy. Off to play with the steamer and see if I can make decent microfoam with this thing.....

Only complaint - I didn't buy the drain fitting for the pan and should have. While the flushing routine is easy and I seem to have no problem with it being very repeatable that tray - big as it is - fills up FAST.

Congrats on your new toy! Great choice, and I hope it gives you as much pleasure every day as mine has.

A fully plumbed drip tray is very convenient. I ran a drain line into my sink for many months, finally got it fully plumbed - and now, with the benefit of hindsight, wish I'd done it sooner. In the meanwhile, you can flush into a cup to reduce the frequency of drip tray emptying.

Enjoy!
____
John

[Genesis]

Well, drilling the hole for the drain and running it means putting a hole in a solid-surface counter where it will be impossible to plug and VERY noticable if I ever sell this place.

I doubt I'll do it - but I may well run a line into the sink. Its a whole 12" carry now for the tray..... but still.....