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Prototype La Marzocco GS3 - A Pro's Perspective - Page 2

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Link to "Prototype La Marzocco GS3 - A Pro's Perspective"by AndyS on Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:09 am

malachi wrote:Just finished first testing session. Assume the following is VERY preliminary.
My tentative initial numbers are looking like no-flush ±0.3F.
Note that the PID has not been tuned.
I really need at least two more days of testing and some tuning before I have conclusive numbers, but the goal I would love to see is ±0.15F.


Do you mean ±0.3F stability INTERshot (from one shot to the next) or INTRAshot (within each shot)? We normally expect PID tuning to improve intershot stability, but the physical design of the machine is what really controls intrashot stability. With its relatively large boiler and massive build, it's likely that the GS3 acts "normally."
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Link to "Prototype La Marzocco GS3 - A Pro's Perspective"by MOSFET on Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:32 am

I assumed the plastic cap was for insulation. You may want to check your measurements with and without the cap.

If you're targeting to measure 0.15F, is the resolution of your meter in the tens place or the hundredths place? When the resolution gets this low, thermocouples can be too noisy. There are semiconductor devices that have higher accuracy and stability. I have one epoxied to my boiler and I can resolve a stable ten-thousandths place with a good multimeter. (For my purposes this is just for fun, not for cup quality per se.)

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Link to "Prototype La Marzocco GS3 - A Pro's Perspective"by malachi on Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:27 am

Abe Carmeli wrote:
malachi wrote:My tentative initial numbers are looking like no-flush ±0.3F.


Thanks Chris. A second by second graph would be more telling than a final number. It would be nice if you could post a few shots once you've concluded the PID tuning. And by the way, does the PID have an auto tune, and does it use Fuzzy Logic ?


With this machine I'm having to do a TON of measurements.
It's going to take some time. I'm hoping to have some results by the end of the week.
Results from a few shots are going to be rather meaningless. The margin of error in measurement of the thermocouple and the Scace and the Fluke (combined) are going to present an issue with this machine I think.

I'm not doing the PID tuning - I'm getting numbers from Marzocco.
I'm afraid I can't share a ton of details about the PID right now.
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Link to "Prototype La Marzocco GS3 - A Pro's Perspective"by malachi on Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:34 am

AndyS wrote:Do you mean ±0.3F stability INTERshot (from one shot to the next) or INTRAshot (within each shot)? We normally expect PID tuning to improve intershot stability, but the physical design of the machine is what really controls intrashot stability. With its relatively large boiler and massive build, it's likely that the GS3 acts "normally."


Sorry.

I should have given more detail.
I was speaking Inter-shot.

Here is the deal... this machine seems to be stable to a degree that I'm not used to. And it seems like the margin of error of the measurement rig is contributing significantly to the variance.
In addition, with this machine I found that, after an initial post-idle flush, I was not seeing the usual "bad first shot" temp results.

As a result, my theory (and please, correct me if I'm wrong on any of my assumptions, methodologies or math as I'm no engineer) is that I'm going to need to get a very, very large number of results in order to minimize the influence of the measurement rig.

Thus, the ±0.15F number noted above was the result of a set of 140 results.

The plan is to have more than 500 results to work from.

Does this make sense?
Am I going about this all wrong?
Should I just say "It's stable to 0.5F or less" and leave it at that ('cause I can, in fact, conclude that right now)?

I'd actually love to just leave it at that because I have to tell you all this measurement crap is really boring.
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Link to "Prototype La Marzocco GS3 - A Pro's Perspective"by malachi on Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:11 pm

Day 4:

Having burned through the last of the Hines espresso in a marathon session yesterday evening with rockstar Kyle Larson, it was time to roll in the Hairbender. I'm excited to be testing the machine with an espresso I have such familiarity with. This should provide me with a better frame of reference.

First note... if you set the machine to turn on and off automatically you want to make sure you set it to the right times. It was a bit frustrating to wake up this morning and find the machine off. Pure operator error.

Anyway, I dialed the temp to a touch over 198F and pulled the usual garbage shot.
A little tweaking of the grind and...

A very, very familiar shot.
Gorgeous looking with tight and incredibly persistent crema.
Wonderful aromatics (cocoa, vanilla, dried fruit, tropical flowers and some sort of spice I can't get a handle on).
Rich and sweet, with a ton of dark belgian chocolate, some dutch processed cocoa and even a little milk chocolate.
Dried stone-fruit, a little hint of melon, some raw honeycomb... and some tropical spices (cardamom?) and a touch of sweet citrus zest to top it off.
Very complex - and yet very integrated and rounded.
Perfect reproduction in the cup - great clarity.
This is a very dense and heavy espresso for the Hairbender. It's something I'm noting is consistent across all espressos so far with this machine. There is a concentration of flavour in the mouthfeel that is almost like French Press - a sort of feel on the palate that is almost like there are more solids in the espresso than normal. It's almost like the espresso is "gritty" feeling. I know that might sound like a bad thing - but it's not. It makes the espresso taste heavier and more syrupy. Coupled with the incredible clarity in the cup - this allows for an "amplification" of flavours that is incredible.


Anyway - a quick cappuccino... And finally I'm really getting the hang of the steaming set-up. The "lever" control didn't take long, but the limited articulation of the wand has forced me to change how I hold the pitcher. While I complained about this the other day - it actually hasn't taken that long to address. I just have to pay more attention and not go by memory. Really nice microfoam - nearly instantly. The stretching phase is over almost before it starts. If you have to adjust wand angle or depth or pitcher angle you're probably going to over-stretch the milk. That's how fast this beast is.

In milk the Hairbender softens up, the chocolates become more cocoa and milk chocolate dominated and the raw honey becomes a little more polished. The citrus and spice cut through the fats nicely... a lovely drink.


The espresso - better than all but a handful I've pulled on commercial non temp stabilized dual boiler commercial machines. And as good as all but a couple I've pulled on temp stabilized commercial machines. To my palate, it was simply noticeably better than any I've had, pulled or been served on any HX machine (home or commercial).

The cappuccino - not quite as noticeable a difference as compared to the commercial machines. Definitely the sort of thing I'd have been proud of making, serving or being served in any Stumptown location. But I've had capps from Kyle et al off the temp-stabilized Mistral that were better. I think I still need to dial in the milk to get the sweetness there. To my palate, however, it was also better than anything from any HX machine.


I think that espressos like the Hairbender are going to show off the strengths of this machine more than a lot of coffees. Coffees that are hard to work with - that are unforgiving or are finicky or particular are, I think, going to be where we see this sort of really clear difference. The more forgiving coffees are probably going to be less exciting to work with.

I'm very interested in checking out some of the other finicky coffees like the Vivace espressos.
I'm also kind of interested in checking out some "flawed" espressos to see if the clarity issue can, in fact, turn out to be a negative.


I never thought I'd say this - but I don't care that this thing is automatic. I want it.
Damn.
"Taste is the only morality." -- John Ruskin
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Link to "Prototype La Marzocco GS3 - A Pro's Perspective"by Abe Carmeli on Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:42 pm

malachi wrote:I never thought I'd say this - but I don't care that this thing is automatic. I want it.
Damn.


Oh but so soon? This must be the shortest foreplay ever. I thought at least you're going to tease us for another week or two before taking us to the last page. :wink: And what happened to the "love you till the day I die" pledge you gave the Speedster just a week ago? :shock:
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Link to "Prototype La Marzocco GS3 - A Pro's Perspective"by malachi on Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:20 pm

I don't have the Speedster in my kitchen.

sigh.
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Link to "Prototype La Marzocco GS3 - A Pro's Perspective"by malachi on Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:08 pm

Day 4 (continued):

And a long, long day winds down...

I burned through a whole lot of coffee. Four other folks were by pulling shots, tasting shots and (in general) flipping out over the machine. These were all coffee professionals and baristas. These are jaded, cynical people who drink a lot of coffee and have pulled a lot of shots. And they all started talking about how they wanted one of these at home.

Image

One thing... there has been a lot of chatter about this machine being "ugly" on various sites.
I don't get it. Perhaps it doesn't photograph well. This thing, to me, is an attractive piece of equipment.

Image

Anyway...

I continue to be amazed. I pulled a lot of shots, tasted a lot of coffees. I continue to get incredible clarity. I continue to get amazing mouthfeel. Flavour reproduction is incredible. With every coffee I'm tasting things I'd not tasted before. With every coffee I'm getting shots that are as good as I've ever had.

Image

I also continue to run through millions of boring measurements.
Honestly - I'm really tempted to say "screw it." This machine is at least as temperature stable as any of us want, desire and/or need. But I'm soldiering on. Another couple days and I'll have data. Of course, the data will all be nearly meaningless beyond being able to say, "yes - this machine provides stability of equal to or greater than 0.5F." And I am confident that I can say that right now.

Image

To keep myself sane, I'm breaking up the "boy scientist" silliness with milk practice. And I'm glad to say that I'm continuing to refine my technique with this machine (as you can see from the following 5.5oz cappuccino photo). At this point I'm confident in my belief that milk with this machine is on par with espresso with the machine.

Image

In any event, I'm loving this machine. In fact, I'm head over heals in love with it. The idea that someone is going to, soon, take it from me makes me really, really sad.


If anyone has questions or would like me to take any specific photos for them - or describe anything for them - just ask.

Oh... and if you're in Portland OR this Friday morning and want to come by for coffee... let me know.
"Taste is the only morality." -- John Ruskin
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Link to "Prototype La Marzocco GS3 - A Pro's Perspective"by AndyS on Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:22 pm

malachi wrote:... this machine seems to be stable to a degree that I'm not used to. And it seems like the margin of error of the measurement rig is contributing significantly to the variance.
In addition, with this machine I found that, after an initial post-idle flush, I was not seeing the usual "bad first shot" temp results.

As a result, my theory (and please, correct me if I'm wrong on any of my assumptions, methodologies or math as I'm no engineer) is that I'm going to need to get a very, very large number of results in order to minimize the influence of the measurement rig.

Thus, the ±0.3F number noted above was the result of a set of 140 results.

The plan is to have more than 500 results to work from.


Personally, I think you should stop measuring temperatures IMMEDIATELY. As we say in the hedonistic world of espresso, F#ck the Fluke!

± 0.3F from idling is spectacular. It's a dream machine!

Sit back and enjoy the coffee....
-AndyS
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Link to "Prototype La Marzocco GS3 - A Pro's Perspective"by NewEnglandCliff on Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:26 pm

malachi wrote:Rich and sweet, with a ton of dark belgian chocolate, some dutch processed cocoa and even a little milk chocolate.


What, no Chilean cocoa butter? Seriously, though, love your descriptors. Few people can detect flavor characteristics that well, and I've worked with many judges (albeit judging beer).
Dolce Vita,

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Link to "Prototype La Marzocco GS3 - A Pro's Perspective"by malachi on Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:31 pm

AndyS wrote:Sit back and enjoy the coffee....


I am...
Oh, I am!


Image

Image
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Link to "Prototype La Marzocco GS3 - A Pro's Perspective"by AndyS on Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:41 pm

malachi wrote:
AndyS wrote:Sit back and enjoy the coffee....


I am...
Oh, I am!


Judging from the number of shots you've pulled today, you'll probably be enjoying it for several more sleepless nights.! :-)

Image


Great photo! Wow, the PF to cup clearance is really large.
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Link to "Prototype La Marzocco GS3 - A Pro's Perspective"by malachi on Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:48 pm

AndyS wrote:Judging from the number of shots you've pulled today, you'll probably be enjoying it for several more sleepless nights.! :-)


Actually, I'm one of those annoying people who can go to sleep 30 minutes after drinking an espresso.

AndyS wrote:Great photo! Wow, the PF to cup clearance is really large.


Thanks.

The clearance is pretty large - though of course it is magnified in this case by the combination of the angle of the shot, the naked portafilter and the squat little Marzocco demi.
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Link to "Prototype La Marzocco GS3 - A Pro's Perspective"by Abe Carmeli on Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:56 pm

Chris,

So far you've focused on the coffee and milk quality. As you are concluding your technical measurements here are some items to think about:

1) The intra-shot temp performance - A 25 second shot graph, and how it changes when the machine is busy/idle
2) Can you outrun the machine when entertaining a party?
3) Does the machine behave differently on 10 back to back shots - if so how would you cope with it?
4) Flush routine - Does your 0.25oz regardless of idle time still hold true?
5) Does steaming affect brew temp if done simultaneously
6) After pulling a shot, how long does it take the machine to come back to temperature?
7) Your high watermark in your past reviews was the Mistral to which you have given a perfect 10. How would you rate the GS3 in comparison?
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Link to "Prototype La Marzocco GS3 - A Pro's Perspective"by malachi on Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:10 pm

Abe Carmeli wrote:Chris,

So far you've focused on the coffee and milk quality. As you are concluding your technical measurements here are some items to think about:

1) The intra-shot temp performance - A 25 second shot graph, and how it changes when the machine is busy/idle
2) Can you outrun the machine when entertaining a party?
3) Does the machine behave differently on 10 back to back shots - if so how would you cope with it?
4) Flush routine - Does your 0.25 regardless of idle time still holds true?
5) Does steaming affect brew temp if done simultaneously
6) After pulling a shot, how long does it take the machine to come back to temperature?
7) Your high watermark in your past reviews was the Mistral to which you have given a perfect 10. How would you rate the GS3 in comparison?


1 - yeah. I'm doing the legwork now. Sigh.

2 - no. *

3 - no. *

4 - see #1.

5 - good idea. will add to plan.

6 - the machine stays at temp.

7 - I've probably got at least another week or two before I can speak to that, sorry.

* - Of course, as this is not plumbed in, you'll have to empty the drain tray and fill the reservoir when under high volume conditions.
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Link to "Prototype La Marzocco GS3 - A Pro's Perspective"by cannonfodder on Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:15 pm

How about one hi resolution beauty shot I can use for wallpaper (max out the megapixels and email it to me).

I really, really want one of these machines. For Pro use at home it sounds wonderful, or as you suggested a small business but I still have a hard time swallowing $4.5K for a machine that would be relegated to pulling 2-3 shots a day (although with this machine my consumption may skyrocket). Unfortunately, I think that price is a bit out of most all home enthusiasts budget, now if they had hit the $2k range, that would be another story. But I still lust after one.

It will be very interesting to see what the rest of the market responds with. Competition tends to breed ingenuity and innovation. Maybe next year(07) we will see a new crop of truly prosumer class machines.
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Link to "Prototype La Marzocco GS3 - A Pro's Perspective"by malachi on Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:24 pm

Personal favorites are as follows. If you want one of these - just ask. Otherwise, more will be forthcoming over time.

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Link to "Prototype La Marzocco GS3 - A Pro's Perspective"by malachi on Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:37 pm

Abe Carmeli wrote:So far you've focused on the coffee and milk quality.


And, to be honest, that is what I will continue to do. 'Cause that is what it's all about.
I'm doing the WBC style Scace measurements purely because people asked for them.
Honestly, it seem rather silly to me. Once I get it all out of the way I'll be happy.

If there is a machine out there which produces beautiful tasting coffee but tests incredibly poorly when it comes to various technical measurements I'd call it a good machine. This isn't some sort of "spec beauty contest."

It's all about the coffee.
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Link to "Prototype La Marzocco GS3 - A Pro's Perspective"by barry on Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:58 pm

malachi wrote:With this machine I'm having to do a TON of measurements.


datalogger, i hope.


--barry "manual recording sucks"
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Link to "Prototype La Marzocco GS3 - A Pro's Perspective"by malachi on Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:58 pm

Abe Carmeli wrote:Temp measurements are not really for the numbers sake. The purpose here is to try to investigate what it is in the machine that induces great shots. Look at it as an opportunity to unveil the mystery. A detailed look at the temperature profile allows us to speculate with a little more confidence, since we already have a lot of temp data from other machines to compare it to. It does not give a definitive answer, other things go into it from the machine's performance, but it is a start.

You're going to see nearly the same brew temp profile that you see from a GB5 or a Synesso - the variance is going to be not only incredibly minor but very hard to correlate to any differences in the cup. There are just too many other variables (brew pressure profile and stability, coffee, barista technique and skill and personal desired flavour profiles).

I can tell you the differences in the cup I've noticed so far from a GB5 or a Synesso or a temp-stabilized Mistral (assuming that each is isolated from changes in water line pressure).

1 - the shots seem slightly "denser" on the palate.
2 - there is a "concentration" in the low end of the shots that results in heavier flavoured shots.

These are very small differences.


In summary, if you like the flavour profile from a stable brew-temp machine, you're going to like this machine.


Beyond that - it really does seem like dyno-chart posting.
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