Prototype La Marzocco GS3 - A Pro's Perspective - Page 10

[malachi]

In response to various requests and challenges - I will, over the next week, do some taste testing with groups of people pulling shots of the same beans at various temps and asking for descriptions and evaluations of the coffees.
This will be blind testing, at randomized temp settings rather than a sequence, with no discussion amongst testers and will be form/questionaire based.

I should have results in one week.


Other tests to be conducted include:

- single origin taste and taste/temp testing,
- more coffees (attempting to arrive at some generalized conclusions),
- training "noobie" baristas,
- various pre-infusion model tasting.

If folks have additional suggestions - now is the time to ask.

[malachi]

I just "upgraded" from a mini-e to a junior, and while I like it MUCH more than the mazzer, I know exactly what you're saying re: little details in the design and build. If you could make a junior that is as well put together as a mazzer, WOW - what a grinder that would be.

That's the plan!

[bradinvancouver]

Hi Chris!

I'm one of the lucky ones to get my hands on this bad boy for some playing. Mark Prince and I are each taking a machine to a charity event tonight with about 250 people expected. There will be some enticing signage and the coffee is free so these two GS3's should really be put through the paces. I'll report back here and on coffeegeek tonight - caterers or small shop owners/wannabees should find this quite interesting.

I've only had it up and running for a day but, good lord, do I lust for one...

Seriously, there are distinct advantages over the GB5 which I have in my cafe. I think those will be moot once they finalize the hybrid head kit for the GB5 but I could really see buying 3 of these side by side (you can be quite sure there will be a plumb-in option) for a shop instead of a single machine a la one head, one pump idea. Price wise, 2 of these will be less than a two group GB5 but 3 would be more than a 3 group. Just babbling on after a very respectable first (and I do mean the first one pulled, no adjusting) this morning. Imagine a kiosk or mobile cart with one of these and a clover...

Here's a thought - as a distributor or roaster, here you have the opportunity to go to any shop and demo your coffee as it was meant to be. I'm thinking of getting one just to approach smaller shops with old or, how to put it gently, not so great equipment and guest barista for a day with the machine and a mazzer grinder. Promo the coffee and have customers fill out comment cards on whether they'd buy more coffee/give good word of mouth if it were that good every day. Then leave the machine and grinder with them for a week (with a night of training of course) to see what a difference it makes. Couple that with some exterior signage and a set-up with a leasing company (I'd estimate a grinder and gs3 would come in at 100-140/month) and these things should sell themselves (plus the roaster should have a customer for life).

Back to the machine - we (shamefully so I'm told by all the coffeegeeks...) use a swift at the cafe so my hand tamping skills would be more akin to a seasoned home barista. The Mazzer Major I have the GS3 paired with is perhaps a bit above most home setups but, if one were to drop 4500 for a GS3, 600 or less for a refurbed major is reasonable. That being said, I can dial this in with only 2-3 shots pulled. And it just goes and goes. Like I said above, I dialed it in last night, went to bed, got up and, without adjusting anything, dosed and pulled a shot that was perfectly drinkable. I did some cardinal sins such as forgetting to dump the puck the night before and not getting rid of the leftover 1/4 portafilter worth of old espresso grinds in the hopper - shot was perfect tasting but looked great. A bit of cleaning and the next shot was simply spectacular both look and taste. My wife, who has never hand tamped, was able to pull great shots right out of the gate with just some quick pointers.

I'm having trouble with steaming due to the acorn tip (I might swap it with one from the GB5 tonight because I don't think I'll have enough practice time) - I think I'd lose the cool touch wand for a fully articulated 'hot' one if that ends up being the limiting factor (that's what I've heard - I also heard the problem has been partially solved and the production version will have cool touch with some front to back articulation). From what you've said in this thread, it sounds like a practice makes perfect thing. What temp did you set your steam boiler at? Mine is about 157 and giving plenty of oomph.

This morning it will be a run up through temperatures with some fresh black cat - should be very interesting. This machine really makes you want to play with it.

Anyhow, cappuccino time!

Anyone in the Vancouver area - there will be an open house tomorrow (Sunday the 27th) at the Elysian Room on W 5th Ave, just east of Burrard from 12 to 3 pm. There will be two of these machines there for your toying pleasure. So far, there's only been 2 rsvp's on coffee geek http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/.../canadawest/191087 so they're in for a treat...

Ooh - last thought - those side panels - you could get them unfinished from LM and etch your store logo into them. Or, wait! How about replacing them, the group head cap and the portafilter handle with some exotic hardwood! Geeking out...

Really, thank you Bill Crossland et al for letting me toy with this. And a shout out to Mark Prince for getting me involved (and for all the input and prompting he provided to Bill over the past couple of years to make this a reality).

[malachi]

Thanksgiving Vacation:

So I just returned from a vacation on the coast. With friends, with coffee freaks, with espressos from all over the places... and with the GS3.

That's right, I took the GS3 (and grinder, water filtration system, barista supplies... and about 30lbs of espresso) with me to the coast for a vacation. Call me insane - many people do.

But seriously, if this is some sort of commercial/home/catering uber-machine then this should be the perfect recipe for a test. Take following ingredients and combine:
Four nights at a rented house on the coast.
One daily regular at Vivace (soy cappuccino).
One Stumptown regular (double macchiatto or double 6oz cappuccino).
One Stumptown semi-regular (double 8oz americano or double 8oz latte).
One past-USBC Champion (any and all short coffee drinks).
3lbs Hines Espresso
1lb Stumptown Hairbender
1lb Stumptown El Salvador Kilimanjaro Peaberry
1lb Stumptown Ethiopia Sidamo
1lb Ecco Caffe Daterra Reserve
1lb Ecco Caffe Espresso Reserve
3lbs Zoka Palladino
1lb Victrola Streamline
1lb Victrola Ethiopia Sidamo
1lb Victrola Brazil CoE Cerrado
1lb Vivace Dolce
1lb Vivace Vita
1lb DOMA Vito's
1lb DOMA Ruby's
One Prototype La Marzocco GS3
One Cimbali Junior Grinder
One Everpure water system with FloJet pump
various cups and tampers and pitchers and towels

Whew.

First and foremost... this machine is not lightweight. Sure - it isn't very big but it's pretty damn heavy. Taking it down a flight of stairs is a drag.

But, we made it - loaded the car and off we went.
Setting up the machine is quick and easy once you've lugged it about. Re-assemble, pump the reservoir full of water, plug it in, main power switch on... done. Oh... right, also needed to decide what coffee you're going to start with the next day and set the brew temp for it before going to bed. Done.

As the days went by everyone went from being doubtful to impressed to just basically taking the machine for granted.
Seriously.

There were some questions answered along the way.

First - I'm glad the steam wand is getting redesigned. It's the big and obvious weakspot for this machine. It's workable. There are techniques for getting great milk with it (thanks Bronwen).

Second - the ease of altering brew temp quickly is probably the biggest eye-opener and biggest opportunity with this machine. The difference is taste with the Vivace Dolce at 203.0F and 203.3F was truly dramatic (from marginally drinkable to really, really good).

Third - I would theorize that the quality of espresso was primarily limited by barista skill and coffee -- across all coffees and all baristas.

Fourth - the "difficult" espressos seem to benefit the most from this machine (one of the top two shots of Dolce ever) while the "easy" coffees see less obvious results.

Fifth - small changes to brew temp were immediately discernible to even untrained palates. At one point, the Stumptown semi-regular said, "this espresso tastes different - sharper in some way - what happened?" after a reduction of 0.3F.


I had a handful of really, really memorable drinks.
The shot of Dolce...
A Hines macchiatto...
A Ecco Reserve cappuccino...


I had a ton of fun.

This machine is for real.
Really.

Anyone want to hear about what we found to be ideal brew temps for any coffees - just ask.

Oh... and I think we have a wave-theory explanation for the non-bell curve distribution of optimal brew temps.

Brad -- very cool. Can't wait to hear what you think. I've got the steam boiler set to (I think) 257F.

[miKe mcKoffee]

Thanksgiving Vacation:

So I just returned from a vacation on the coast. With friends, with coffee freaks, with espressos from all over the places... and with the GS3.

That's right, I took the GS3 (and grinder, water filtration system, barista supplies... and about 30lbs of espresso) with me to the coast for a vacation. Call me insane - many people do.

Great traveling review. I DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT! Just when I have myself about convinced to get a Brewtus and PID it...

Sanity is highly over rated. (speaking as someone who's taken Silvia & Rocky on vacation)

[AndyS]

First and foremost... this machine is not lightweight. Sure - it isn't very big but it's pretty damn heavy. Taking it down a flight of stairs is a drag.

I carried it upstairs by myself when it first arrived, so I can vouch that it IS heavy! With the boilers and reservoir full, it is REALLY, REALLY heavy!

First - I'm glad the steam wand is getting redesigned. It's the big and obvious weakspot for this machine. It's workable. There are techniques for getting great milk with it (thanks Bronwen).

Care to share?

[NewEnglandCliff]

That's right, I took the GS3 and....One Everpure water system with FloJet pump.....
.
Setting up the machine is quick and easy once you've lugged it about. Re-assemble, pump the reservoir full of water.....

This machine isn't plumbable, is it? Are you using the Flojet to somehow fill the reservoir?

Anyone want to hear about what we found to be ideal brew temps for any coffees - just ask.

Yes, I'd like to see evaluations of many coffees at different brewing temperatures. I've tried most of the top coffees available by mail and otherwise and had mixed results (on both an HX E61 and the La Spaziale S1). This would be a great topic for a new dedicated thread. The reviews should have the coffees sampled at whole degrees, as well as at fractions to ferret out their optimum temperatures if the capability exists. The machine used, type water, etc. should be specified, of course, so that those of us with those machines can try to duplicate it.

[malachi]

Care to share?

Wand almost straight down in the center of the pitcher;
Steam all the way on;
Lower pitcher quickly to bring tip to right below the surface;
Stretch;
Raise pitcher (keeping wand in center of pitcher);
Slowly adjust angle to get roll over the tip;
Steam and finish.

Also...
Refrigerate the pitcher and use more milk than normal.

[malachi]

This machine isn't plumbable, is it? Are you using the Flojet to somehow fill the reservoir?

Two things...

1 - this machine could easily be plumbed (there is a line from the reservoir that could be hooked to mains instead though you'd have to adjust pump pressure after and the prototype doesn't have a plumbable drip tray).

2 - Yup... the flojet goes into the Everpure cartridge which goes to a line that has an on/off set up. I just pump straight into the reservoir when I feel like it.

Yes, I'd like to see evaluations of many coffees at different brewing temperatures. I've tried most of the top coffees available by mail and otherwise and had mixed results (on both an HX E61 and the La Spaziale S1). This would be a great topic for a new dedicated thread. The reviews should have the coffees sampled at whole degrees, as well as at fractions to ferret out their optimum temperatures if the capability exists. The machine used, type water, etc. should be specified, of course, so that those of us with those machines can try to duplicate it.

I think there is a relevant thread in 'Coffees'.
Of course... it's going to be highly subjective (given the differences in machines, dosing, coffee age and personal taste).
I'll start adding to it.

[malachi]

Hey Greg... saw your alt.coffee post...

It's nice to see that even the most sceptical scientist can get all gushy about this machine!
Grin.

[NewEnglandCliff]

I think there is a relevant thread in 'Coffees'.
Of course... it's going to be highly subjective (given the differences in machines, dosing, coffee age and personal taste).
I'll start adding to it.

Yes (you just start that? That date and time doesn't even exist yet!), that's what I'm talkin' about. It will be tricky though. Water composition alone could make a big difference. And most people, if they can adjust for temp., can only adjust to within one degree (even that will be different on different machines). Still, perhaps we can get a database of users of specific machines posting their best results.

But then the coffees themselves will change.

[malachi]

OK

so I've come to terms with the steaming situation with this machine. Thanks to Bronwen I've got both cappuccino and latte milk pretty dialed now. It's very different from what I'm used to from Lineas (and, for that matter, also from Mistrals). It's nothing like what you'd see with a home machine either. It's a whole different beast - and requires different techniques.

But now that I've got it dialed I'm getting very high quality microfoam - consistently.

I still feel that milk is the weakness of the prototype - but purely due to the ease of use. Pulling great shots consistently with the GS3 is very easy assuming you have decent barista skills. The same cannot be said of steaming great milk. It takes work, it takes thought, it takes practice.


With each new coffee I roll in to the machine, I discover even more clearly how great this machine is.
I sincerely doubt that there is a barista out there who is going to find that they are limited by this machine. For all of us - the limit will be our skills and our coffees. There is little to no doubt in my mind that this machine has exposed my weaknesses as a barista on a daily basis.

I've come to the conclusion that there are two groups of people who should seriously consider buying this machine for home (assuming they have the cash for it).

The first are people who simply want very good espresso drinks, consistently, without having to work too hard. For these folks, this machine is ideal. With decent barista skills, producing very good espresso time and time again requires a fraction of the effort and attention that is required from other machines. By sticking with one espresso blend, making very good drinks is going to be incredibly low stress.

The second are people who want to push the limits of their own skills and explore and understand coffee. For these people the ability to explore the affects of the manipulation of factors and variables in a semi-controlled manner and taste the results with such clarity is going to be both invaluable and eye-opening.

The issue is that I'm afraid that the people who are most interested in this machine at present are the engineers and the tinkerers - and I fear that they are going to be disappointed in this machine. I don't think that this machine has the same "upside" for these folks - I don't see the potential for ongoing interesting and rewarding upgrades. I don't really see this as the good "foundation" for the creation of a customized machine that you get from other contenders.

The analogy that keeps coming to mind is the car analogy. If the Silvia is a Honda Civic and the Brewtus is a Subaru WRX STI then the GS3 is an BMW M5.

[malachi]

Oh...

One thing folks need to keep in mind here is, as previously noted...

this is a prototype


For example - the steam wand is certainly going to change in some ways.
Probably of more interest to folks here -- the PID is going to be tuned. That's right, the temp stability numbers you're seeing are pre-tuning.

[lennoncs]

The analogy that keeps coming to mind is the car analogy. If the Silvia is a Honda Civic and the Brewtus is a Subaru WRX STI then the GS3 is an BMW M5.

Well put.

[leonardo]

What are the dimensions of the GS3? Thanks.

[HB]

From earlier in this thread:

21"w, 16"d, 13.25"h

(of course, these measurements are of this particular prototype and should be seen as purely a general estimate of where the final machine should range. and the height measurement is not useful height, but rather height of the box. you'll need additional room for cups and to access the reservoir fill.)

[Nick]

The analogy that keeps coming to mind is the car analogy. If the Silvia is a Honda Civic and the Brewtus is a Subaru WRX STI then the GS3 is an BMW M5.

So you're saying that the people will hate the GS3's design and that the La Marzocco devotees will call for the designer's head?

Will the electronics end up being like the despised "iDrive?"

Bangle-bungle for coffee?

[barry]

Oh... and I think we have a wave-theory explanation for the non-bell curve distribution of optimal brew temps.

It actually took a vacation on the coast with friends, Valerie and Bronwen to figure this out. It was actually Valerie who figured it out. It's wave forms - intersecting.

<cough><cough>

[malachi]

I did say "we".

[default]

OK
The analogy that keeps coming to mind is the car analogy. If the Silvia is a Honda Civic and the Brewtus is a Subaru WRX STI then the GS3 is an BMW M5.

now i drive a civic, had a hand on wrx, never dream of m5. just too fast and too expensive. love wrx, nasty!
[no analogy intended]

btw, what is a speedster to?