Pros and cons of doser vs. doserless grinder?

[mrosco]

In my previous post I was caught up in what machine to buy and if the grinder in the package deal was a good grinder (MACAP4). I didn't give much thought to whether I wanted a grinder with a doser or doserless. A couple articles mention "I wish a had a doserless" or some other opinion but never get into the pros and cons of each.
By default I ordered doserless because it seemed like it would be less cleaning, less clutter, etc. Can someone give me what the pros and cons are. I probably will pull about 10 -12 shots per day and only occasionaly entertain so I have no real need to grind a significant amount of beans at one time. I have time to change my order (I think) before it ships at the end of the month.


Thanks.

Michael

[hperry]

I've been using the Versalab M3 grinder which is doserless. Besides really the Versalab's good distribution one of the big plusses I've appreciated about a doserless grinder is that you do not have old grounds. The Versalab takes it one step further and has a "wiper" that cleans the funnel everytime that you grind. With my previous Macap which had a doser there was always one shot that went to trying to clear most of the old grounds in the doser away. While you'll still have some old grounds left in the burrs themselves, I would think not having a doser would reduce this substantially. The doserless Macap came out after I bought mine - at the time I wished I had waited for the doserless model.

[mrosco]

Thanks for the reply. What you said makes sense. The wiper feature sounds like a good idea, I'm surprised other manufactures haven't done that.

[torretta]

They both have pros/cons which probably nets to not much of a difference. Personally, I don't like how most doserless grinders look (the Rocky Doserless for example). More importantly I am not very fond of standing with a portafilter in my hand waiting for the shot to stop grinding which could take anywhere between 10-15 seconds depending upon the grinder.

In my previous post I was caught up in what machine to buy and if the grinder in the package deal was a good grinder (MACAP4). I didn't give much thought to whether I wanted a grinder with a doser or doserless. A couple articles mention "I wish a had a doserless" or some other opinion but never get into the pros and cons of each.
By default I ordered doserless because it seemed like it would be less cleaning, less clutter, etc. Can someone give me what the pros and cons are. I probably will pull about 10 -12 shots per day and only occasionaly entertain so I have no real need to grind a significant amount of beans at one time. I have time to change my order (I think) before it ships at the end of the month.


Thanks.

Michael

[hperry]

You're right - as a matter of fact with the Versalab it's a little more time than that. Also the production in Michael's case, 10 - 12 shots a day, particularly if it's done within a relatively short period of time, somewhat reduces the impact of old coffee. However, with the Macap clearing old coffee completely out was a PITA. For me it's worth the standing to get the better shot without having to clear the doser. My experience has been that there isn't much time difference between making sure the old coffee is out, and just grinding into the portafilter in the first place. Because, for me, function trumps form it's more important what it does than how it looks.

They both have pros/cons which probably nets to not much of a difference. Personally, I don't like how most doserless grinders look (the Rocky Doserless for example). More importantly I am not very fond of standing with a portafilter in my hand waiting for the shot to stop grinding which could take anywhere between 10-15 seconds depending upon the grinder.

[Woofy]

It really boils down to what works the best based on your usage patterns, practical needs and don't ignore the what-makes-you-happy-when-you-use-it factor. After all, most of the grinders under discussion are likely to last a decade or more under home use. If the burrs and grinding chamber are comparable, it makes no difference in the cup which one you choose. Neither style can substitute for a well-practiced dose-distribution-tamp when it comes to making great espresso, even if the dose comes from the spout of a doserless grinder. Don't forget that as pretty as the toys are, it's your skills as a barista that's going to give the espresso you make its soul, its life. Making espresso is like baking good bread. The more love you give it, the more it gives that love back to you.

When it comes to grinders, my typical usage patterns can only be described as bipolar. I am either languishing over a cup at various times of the day, or I have 8-16 guests over for breakfast, which at last count was good for 96 shots and approximately 3.5 gallons of steamed milk in 38 minutes! With that sort of peak usage, a doserless is pretty much out of the question since I have six burners and a griddle going at the same time. I initially purchased a really wonderful doserless grinder, but it just couldn't keep up during the peak usage. It now pulls duty for decaf and all other coffee drinks, plus it serves as a backup when the main grinder is being cleaned.

So now I have a Cimbali Junior grinder used exclusively for espresso. It's wonderfully smooth and fast and doesn't even break a sweat when grinding 96 shots in short order. The quality of grind is outstanding, actually fluffy in texture, and fine tuning the grind is substantially more useful than I would have previously ever admitted it would be. The Cimbali was definitely NOT my first choice, but after using a friend's one day pulling voluntary brunch barista duty, I fell in love with it. I never have to twack the doser lever to break up clumps. The grounds fall straight down into the portafilter, not all over everything else so it's unbelievably neat compared to the Mini, or my other grinder.

In the end, whatever your choice is, if your grinder does what you want it to do AND makes you happy when you use it...all that joy has only one place to go and that's in the cup. Then take any money left over and spend it on a good barista training course.

[nicfortin]

Why we don't see more doserless grinder in commercial setup (Third wave cafe)?
It just make more sense to me, instead of goin' crazy on the doser "swept" lever like crazy, don't you think?
Plus cleaning the thing every other time...
Doser made sense before the "third wave" when we didn't care much about "seconds freshness" of ground coffee

Since I'm starting as a Barista pretty soon in a "new" cafe I'd like to get input from Pros about that doser vs. doserles spacially in a cafe.

Thanks

nic

[luca]

I used to be a big fan of doserless grinders. They certainly have appeal to someone who keeps on reading about using freshly ground coffee all the time. What I found, in practice, though, is that they tend to have a few drawbacks. Clumping and heaps of mess are big ones. Most doserless designs seem to be the equivalent of a doser design and, therefore, still have an exit chute from the burrs that holds up a few grams. I hope that people realise this and purge it clean, just as they would on a dosered grinder. Then let's not forget the "stand there for half a minute holding the pf" thing.

I ditched my doserless rocky for a dosered mazzer mini and couldn't be happier. The standard doserless designs don't appeal to me much. The mini-E gets some bad press, but I set one up to demo one of our machines the other week and I have to say that I wouldn't mind one. I was actually able to adjust it to grind the perfect amount for a double shot with one push of the button! After we had made about seven shots there were maybe twenty grains of coffee on the table. What more do you want?

Why we don't see more doserless grinder in commercial setup (Third wave cafe)?
It just make more sense to me, instead of goin' crazy on the doser "swept" lever like crazy, don't you think?
Plus cleaning the thing every other time...

What decent commercial doserless grinders are there?

We tried the Mahlkoenig out and it was great for a while, but a bit of a PITA. The stepped adjustment really threw the timer out of whack and it dosed MASSIVE clumps. Plus the exit path seemed to be really long ... hate to think how many stale grounds sat in it. Some people think that they grind so fast that they burn the coffee. Mahlkoenig now have a stepless version, which might be an improvement. The grinder does have good aspects, though; the PF holder is really good, it is relatively low on mess and wasteage and it grinds relatively quickly.

The Brasilia competition grinder is a bit ecclectic ... haven't even really heard of anyone else who has one. If it weren't for the incredible amount of mess that it sprays everywhere, it might be the perfect doserless grinder!

I have to say, though, that I'm surprised that more places aren't modding their mazzers. The toilet roll in the centre thing actually works surprisingly well, and it allows you to remove the dosing chamber plate so that you can halve the number of pulls required!

Cheers,

Luca

[Dogshot]

Here's my reason for preferring doser to doserless:

after removing the finger guard on a doser model (on the Mazzers and Macaps), you have an unobstructed path through the chute to the exit point for the grounds from the burrs. You can take a brush after grinding for a shot and sweep and visually inspect the path to ensure there are no leftover grounds. Not only does this contribute to accuracy in dosing, it also ensures that you are not using old grounds to make a shot. In a home environment, this is a big advantage IMO.

Mark

[luca]

Wouldn't just purging the first few seconds of grinds achieve exactly the same thing with a millionth of the fuss and effort?

[alsterlingcafe]

Wouldn't just purging the first few seconds of grinds achieve exactly the same thing with a millionth of the fuss and effort?

Luca....I've had the Macap M4 stepless doser for over a half-year. With concern for freshness, and along the same lines as Mark (dogshot) commented, I don't need to purge the grinder using the following regimen.

* I put two level scoops of beans in the hopper per double shot (usually I'll only fill two PF's for my S1 if I want to "pre-load" for speed)
* Switch on grinder and let it run till I don't hear anymore beans being ground
* With motor still running, stick my ($0.50) 1" chisel-point foam brush up the chute and quickly pull out any remaining grounds (never touches moving parts)
* Will sometimes flick power on-off to use centrifugal forces to drive remaining grounds from burrs
* Use foam brush to quickly flick any remaining grounds from chute and those resting on center spindle area into one of the pie-wedges
* Shut off motor
* Flick the doser until all the grounds are in the portafilter (I've learned to rotate the PF for more even distribution)

This whole process goes very quickly. And in response to the posts and re-posts on this subject, I'm looking forward to doing a video on the Macap to demonstrate the above regimen. It's just easier to show all this to reinforce the "non issue" of clearing a Macap M4 doser. As for doser vs doserless, I've read both in this post and other posts the many benefits of doser over doserless. As I've commented previously, it's very easy to remove the doser mechanism from this model grinder. With a little ingenuity, one could fabricate a simple chute and use the same tapped/threaded mounting holes that secure the doser. Of course, my question would be........why?

Best, Al in SoCal

I gave up on the "bristled brush" in the video for the 1" chisel-point foam brush that fits perfectly into the Macap chute


La Spaziale S1, Temporary Setup

[nicfortin]

... It's just easier to show all this to reinforce the "non issue" of clearing a Macap M4 doser. As for doser vs doserless, I've read both in this post and other posts the many benefits of doser over doserless. As I've commented previously, it's very easy to remove the doser mechanism from this model grinder. With a little ingenuity, one could fabricate a simple chute and use the same tapped/threaded mounting holes that secure the doser. Of course, my question would be........why?

Nice setup, if only I had the money like right now....

Ok little OT would you buy the S1 again? Or maybe the S2 and why? I really dig the S2 (or Brewtus 2)...
Another question, which grinder do you prefer for day to day use and maintenance/cleaning?
The Macap M4 or ?? (I'm not sure if it's a Rocky or Cimbali Jr. I'm too new to home-espresso world)

Thank you and Happy new year!

nic

[Dogshot]

Wouldn't just purging the first few seconds of grinds achieve exactly the same thing with a millionth of the fuss and effort?

No, actually - unless you get your coffee for free. For one thing, it probably takes about as much time to sweep the chute as it does to grind 4gms, dose out, and throw away. At the price I pay for roasted coffee, purging 4-6gms for 6 shots, 5-7 days a week adds up to 170gms of coffee a week wasted - or $300 per year. I often home-roast, and that 170gms wasted is time spent doing a whole roast batch, or more per week. From my perspective, it is both faster and easier to sweep than to toss.

Al, the foam brush idea is great - thanks.

Mark

[alsterlingcafe]

Nice setup, if only I had the money like right now....
Ok little OT would you buy the S1 again? Or maybe the S2 and why? I really dig the S2 (or Brewtus 2)...
Another question, which grinder do you prefer for day to day use and maintenance/cleaning?
The Macap M4 or ?? (I'm not sure if it's a Rocky or Cimbali Jr. I'm too new to home-espresso world)
Thank you and Happy new year! nic

Hey nic...... first off, I went to your "myspace" (Great) and actually spent the first couple minutes watching that BEER AD ! (Hilarious )
I've also decided not to give you "God is My Co-Pilot" as a birthday gift! ..... however, a good alternative might be one of my favorite Heli-pilot license plate frames, which reads; "We don't need no stinkin' runways!"

Anyway, about the grinders. What is interesting about the forums is that much of the input you'll get on equipment is from members that have only used one or two different machines. It's valid input, but may be biased? I suppose that's the case because it's hard to get experience running even 5 different grinders unless you have a store with a showroom nearby; but even then, you wouldn't get enough time on each grinder to really learn the little "in's and out's" of each? For me, the easiest way to look at much of this equipment is by grouping it into price categories. There are few, if any, really bad grinders within the entry level, legitimate home-espresso catalog, once you get into the $150 US to $250 US range. I say "legitimate" as meaning that the grinder is a burr configuration and actually grinds fine enough for espresso. (Some people try using, for example, the Cuisinart Supreme Grind. It's advertised for $30 US, and packaged as a "burr grinder." In fact, it will not grind fine enough, and certainly not consistent enough, for espresso.

So as many others I can only share the following. My first espresso grinder was the Gaggia MDF. I still have it, and felt that for under $200 it was a great value. However, I've heard some very good things about the Cunhill Tranquila grinder. It looks like a commercial machine, and from what others have said, it boasts a very hefty motor and has larger grinding burrs. All that says that if you absolutely can't spend over $200-$250 US.....that's the best value. If you can scare up around $400 US, then I highly recommend the Macap M4, stepless adjustment, doser or doserless. It just got the Coffeegeek Editor's Choice Award, and having one at home, I can say that it works for me. I need to remind myself that you may consider yourself a "Quebec-ian" ( ) and our costs and availability of product here are different than yours.

As for making the same choice of the S1 or version II for another purchase....... possibly. The La Spaziale S series will be getting an NSF/commercial rating, which means that in the near future, it could be used in a small volume coffee service facility. While there are other single brew group machines out there, this machine could fill a very special niche as it can run on a 15 amp circuit when switched to the economy mode. If you're looking at the Brewtus vs the S1, then I'd absolutely recommend the S1 for its rotary pump and the fact that it operates as a fully plumbed machine....meaning that you don't have to fill a reservoir or empty a drain pan.

And Mark......... since home roasting, I feel much safer in losing a few grams of coffee here and there. Every now and then I do receive samples from roasters, and enjoy trying their blend, but I've settled on one blend as my primary, and for home use I buy it green and have my roasting schedule. But again, with the Macap's clean sweeping action, this concern over stale coffee in the chute and doser is not an issue. And the doser version of the Macap is about the same price as the doserless.........so I recommend buying the doser version. It's like you get the doser mechanism for free! And if one really thinks doserless is the way to go, then they can unscrew the doser and store it!?

Best, Al

[cannonfodder]

I have owned a KitchenAid A9, Gaggia MDF, Mazzer Mini and La Cimbali Jr, I have also used Mazzer Major's. The MDF was adequate but not optimal.

The Mini is nice and grinds good. It is very sturdy in build, the grinding chute is small and easily swept out with a long bristled brush, and it takes all of 5 seconds. The doser works well and breaks up clumps as you pull the dosing lever. I dose as I grind. I did take 15 minutes to add the tape squeegee to the doser vanes when I cleaned the machine up last week. She sweeps clean as a whistle now. Nice machine, stepless adjustment, fits under a kitchen cabinet and will last the home Barista a lifetime (with a few burr replacements).

La Cimbali Jr. Love it. Plain and simple, big, heavy, large burrs, easy to work on if something goes wrong. I did not bother to remove the finger guard on the Cimbali. It is part of the doser; it cannot be removed like the Mini. It must be cut off with a rotary tool and cutting wheel. I just give the machine a 2 second grind to purge the chute and discard. The larger burrs blow the grinds out the chute giving you next to no clumps and fluffier grounds than the Mini. The doser sweeps clean out of the box. I like my Jr so much, I moved my Mini to work for my office rig and the Jr is my primary grinder at home. It is boxier than the mini and more industrial looking but it is also more industrial in build and function. It will bang out shots all day long. I also prefer the off/on button over the Mini's timer. The micro adjustment makes tuning your grind very easy.

Major, mainstream commercial grinder. Big burrs, big motor, big doser, big everything. Forget putting it under a kitchen cabinet with a bean hopper on top. Grinds like nobody's business, there is a reason they have been the mainstay of the commercial cafe for years. In the home, you, your kids, and your grandchildren will not outlive the machine (with a few dozen burr changes). For home, it is too big, too impractical, too overkill, I have to get one...

Next on the list, conical burrs. Not having used the Mazzer or MACAP offerings I can not provide any objective information. However, based on what I have heard, I would go with a Mazzer Kony. I have seen the M3 in action and sampled its product. It creates a wonderfully clean and fluffy grind. However, I don't care for the build and would not opt for it given the price point. I will put my money on a Kony.

[luca]

No, actually - unless you get your coffee for free. For one thing, it probably takes about as much time to sweep the chute as it does to grind 4gms, dose out, and throw away. At the price I pay for roasted coffee, purging 4-6gms for 6 shots, 5-7 days a week adds up to 170gms of coffee a week wasted - or $300 per year. I often home-roast, and that 170gms wasted is time spent doing a whole roast batch, or more per week. From my perspective, it is both faster and easier to sweep than to toss.

Sorry, I don't get what you're saying. Both methods get rid of the same grounds. Sweeping does it by sweeping them out; grinding and throwing away does it by forcing them out with fresh grounds, which are then used. Or are you sweeping the chute clear and then using those grounds?

Next on the list, conical burrs. Not having used the Mazzer or MACAP offerings I can not provide any objective information. However, based on what I have heard, I would go with a Mazzer Kony. I have seen the M3 in action and sampled its product. It creates a wonderfully clean and fluffy grind. However, I don't care for the build and would not opt for it given the price point. I will put my money on a Kony.

The kony is very nice, but painfully slow ... well, as slow as a mini or therabouts. Dave Makin paid for that dearly in the WBC this year. The three-phase robur is nice, though! It's also nice to see that someone else shares my reservations about Macaps; I'm getting kinda sick of hearing complaints about them. The Brasilia competition grinder is a commerical doserless conical that has a few issues, but is getting there. Apparently there is a new spout for it that solves the mess problem. But I think that what we're all curious about now is the new offering from LM. It never ceases to amaze me how people dream and LM does ...

Cheers,

Luca

[HughF]

I'm not sure that Cannnonfodder is actually expressing reservations about Macap grinders just by saying they would like a Mazzer Kony, especially since they state that they haven't used any Macap or Mazzer conical burr grinders themselves. My bias is obvious from my signature though...

Cheers,

Hugh

[cannonfodder]

I have not used either the Macap or Mazzer conical, my comment (as I stated) was based solely on hear say. I have heard the Mazzer Kony is a heavier build than the Macap and more refined.

I am surprised that a pro used a Kony because they are slow. The Robur would have been my choice based on speed alone. The Kony is more a low volume/backup grinder or ultimate home grinder. The Robur is huge, you would have to tear out your kitchen cabinets to make it fit. The 220 three phase Robur, you can grind coffee a bucket at a time or grind tree stumps out of the yard. It will do either equally fast.

I was actually going to order a new Elektra A3 to replace my Faema two group. Unfortunately, the high exchange rate has pushed the price up several hundred so it is out of the question for now. So naturally, my thoughts turn to the Kony. If my Cimbali was not under a year old, the decision would be easier.

[HughF]

The MXK's body is built like a brick outhouse and the doser mechanism feels extremely solid. I'd be very surprised if the build quality were ever a problem in pro use let alone for an amateur like me. It's very slightly noisier than I had expected and the Mazzer Mini E does have that very sweet action on the On-Off switch so I can believe that a Kony could seem **slightly** more refined. Re speed, the MXK grinds about 1.5 grams per second (at my espresso grind setting for the S1) on 50Hz UK/European mains voltage, so a bit more on 60Hz mains (350 vs. 400 rpm in the spec.). It just has an On-Off switch (neither auto-fill or a timer are available; I'm using it with a Meopta darkroom enlarger timer to switch the mains on a for calibrated duration because I do keep beans in the hopper.
See : http://www.macap.it/english/prodotti.asp?cat=1&subcat=3&mod=6&900-k=2

It's $528 less for the MXK than the Kony in the USA though (ChrisCoffee's "MXKR" price vs. EspressoParts' Kony). You can buy FAR more refinement in **other** coffee gear with a $500 upgrade fund available!

Cheers,

Hugh