Proper Size of a Double Espresso

[jamiedolan]

HI;

I just realized that the glasses I have been pulling into are the Bodum 3 ounce glasses, not the 2 ounce, as I had thought. Most of the time, I get them pretty close to full, but when I am doing well, I get a good amount of crema, so maybe 1/2 ounce of that glass is crema and 2.5 is espresso. (now I am wondering if I have been consistently pulling around 1/2 ounce more than I should per double shot)

So have I been pulling into too large of a glass for a double shot? Do you normally count the crema as part of the volume of the double shot?
Is it better to use some of the the 2 ounce glasses and fill them to to top?

Thanks
Jamie

[TimEggers]

Hello Jamie yes the crema is typically counted towards the shot volume. But really I wouldn't worry about the finished amount too much rather focus on the taste of the finished product. If 3-ounces tastes better to you then by all means pull 3-ounces. Taste really is the only important aspect of home espresso.

[HB]

Do you normally count the crema as part of the volume of the double shot?

It includes the crema. A double espresso is approximately two ounces in 25-30 seconds from the time the pump is engaged. A double ristretto is approximately 1.5 ounces and runs longer, say 35 seconds. A lungo is approximately 2.5 ounces and runs shorter (as suggested by Al's Rule).

For comparative purposes, I use Andy's proposed brewing ratios. While everyone counts the crema in their espresso volumes (including the Italian Espresso National Institute), brewing ratios more accurately categorize your drink preference in terms that others can accurately reproduce.

[RapidCoffee]

I just realized that the glasses I have been pulling into are the Bodum 3 ounce glasses, not the 2 ounce, as I had thought. Most of the time, I get them pretty close to full, but when I am doing well, I get a good amount of crema, so maybe 1/2 ounce of that glass is crema and 2.5 is espresso. (now I am wondering if I have been consistently pulling around 1/2 ounce more than I should per double shot)

So have I been pulling into too large of a glass for a double shot? Do you normally count the crema as part of the volume of the double shot?

In a word: yes. Your pour should be close to 100% crema as it exits the basket. I typically end up with 80-90% crema when the shot finishes.


It's considered good practice to cut the pour when it blonds. My doubles run 45-60ml (1.5-2.0oz) with a brew ratio close to 50%. A true 3oz double is an extraordinary event for me.

[malachi]

If you like the way it tastes - it's "proper".

[Psyd]

I think if you like it when it gets to the top of a pint glass, then quite a few folk will begin to argue that that ain't proper.

[cafeIKE]

Man, that's evil

jOe nOOb, who's only had exprexxo at *$, or worse, shells out a cupla kilobux and is soon pulling gShot after gShot.

FF to when he encounters one of us consistently exceptional types and has a jaw dropping revelation.

Nothing proper at all about the lead weights he's been downing

[jamiedolan]

In a word: yes. Your pour should be close to 100% crema as it exits the basket. I typically end up with 80-90% crema when the shot finishes.
It's considered good practice to cut the pour when it blonds. My doubles run 45-60ml (1.5-2.0oz) with a brew ratio close to 50%. A true 3oz double is an extraordinary event for me.

Wow, I get no where close to that much crema. I am currently using a well tested, locally roasted espresso blend that is only 3 days old. Grinding using my Mazzer e doserless. It does seem to produce a pretty respectable amount of crema, but my ratio is about backwards of what you describe with only around 20 of the shot looking like it is crema to me. I can shot some photos or video of my pull tomorrow if that would help to see what I am doing.

Maybe I am just limited in what I can do because of my cheap espresso machine. I am fairly happy with alot of my shots, and the crema seems like it is the proper consistency to be able to product latte art in. (even though I feel I am getting far less than 80% crema). However my milk is consistently too thick to make latte art that looks nice.

Thank you everyone for the information. Tomorrow will be a day of additional tests.

Jamie

[peacecup]

I doubt its the machine - I can consistently pull 90% crema shots with good beans, a hand grinder, and the cheapest Saeco pump machine on the market:



This shot is with the pressurized PF, but its the same with the non-pressurized.

Since owning my spring lever, I come to realize that lots of crema does not equal good espresso. I can get the 90% pours with it, but they are not always the best-tasting shots. Your espresso should taste good (to you) - crema is an important part of this, because of the texture that it imparts. If you want the all-crema texture you can focus on the right beans, grind, etc. to get it. I think darker roasts produce less crema in general.

[kahvedelisi]

Judging by taste good idea but not always. Lets say I'm pulling 3-4oz at home and it tastes delicious, is it still proper size of a double espresso? Lets leave home enviroment to a side and go visit a cafe which serves delicious tasting 3-4oz double espressos, that means; since it tastes delicious no one here (or any of the professionals) will object?

Commonly accepted single espresso size --> 1oz (which makes 30ml) per cup, so the proper size for doubles should be max. 2oz (and that's 60ml) per cup. IMO our aim should be, to try and get best tasting results within these ranges. Approving a 3 oz espresso as "proper double" only because it tastes good.. ah well.. that makes us starbucks! Grande espresso!

[Psyd]

I find myself tending to agree, even though most of it was partly in jest. A 'cappuccino' is now a coupla shots in ten ounces (if not fourteen) of stiffly foamed milk because that's what you get when you order one at the 'Buck's. While a three to four ounce drink coming from an espresso machine might be good, and taste great, I'm not sure that it would fit the description 'proper double'. The reason that we have these terms is so that we can be assured that when we speak on the fora, or give our order to a barista, or attempt to discover a champion amongst the baristi of the world with a level playing field, that we can all use a common term to describe what it is that we're talking about. If I order a doppio from the local shop, and the term is used to describe anything that comes from the machine loaded with a double basket, regardless of pull time or volume, I now have to describe the doppio that I want in terms of instructing the barista on exactly how to construct my drink so that it fits the type of doppio that I want to have.
Sorta like I have to do when I want a cappuccino, nowadays. With the exception of just a few shops that I've visited (From Seattle to Miami, and Vermont to San Diego, and as many in between as I could muster), most of them want to put, at a minimum, ten ounces of steamed milk over my doppio. I've only run into a few places that I've had issues with telling them exactly what I want, and fewer still that have been able to give it to me.
Let's not muddy the waters any more'n we have to.
I'd call a 3-4 oz pull from a double basket a 'double lungo' or a 'lungo doppio'. So would Wikipedia, but I somehow suspect that the writer of that info lurks here!
I wouldn't say that a three or four ounce pull is 'improper', just that it's no longer a plain ole doppio.

[RapidCoffee]

Since owning my spring lever, I come to realize that lots of crema does not equal good espresso. I can get the 90% pours with it, but they are not always the best-tasting shots. Your espresso should taste good (to you) - crema is an important part of this, because of the texture that it imparts. If you want the all-crema texture you can focus on the right beans, grind, etc. to get it. I think darker roasts produce less crema in general.

In his Malabar Gold brochure, Dr. Josuma writes that "crema is the most important indicator of espresso quality." Crema imparts far more than texture. Crema is the product of emulsified oils, normally insoluable in water, that give espresso its unique taste, mouthfeel, texture, etc. Espresso without crema is, well, basically just strong coffee. It's not espresso. (If you disagree, then an AeroPress is a far less expensive and finicky alternative to an espresso machine. Just ask Alan Adler. He still claims that it makes espresso, despite the lack of crema. )

Peacecup is right: with freshly roasted beans and a good grinder, you should have no problem getting lots of crema from any "real" espresso machine. Of course, lots of crema does not equate to great espresso. And the "krema" that comes out of a pressurized PF is a poor substitute. But lack of crema is surely an indication of poor espresso.

I'd call a 3-4 oz pull from a double basket a 'double lungo' or a 'lungo doppio'. So would Wikipedia, but I somehow suspect that the writer of that info lurks here!
I wouldn't say that a three or four ounce pull is 'improper', just that it's no longer a plain ole doppio.

That was my point as well. The OP is welcome to enjoy his brew any way that he prefers. But his description suggests pours that run well beyond lungos and flirt with cafe cremas. If he want to pull a doppio normale, I'd recommend starting with standard volumes/brew ratios, and then adjusting the pour to his liking.

[malachi]

I think if you like it when it gets to the top of a pint glass, then quite a few folk will begin to argue that that ain't proper.

Yeah - I'd probably hate it. But if you like it - it's "proper" for you and I'll support you in that regardless of what others think or say.

[malachi]

Wow, I get no where close to that much crema. I am currently using a well tested, locally roasted espresso blend that is only 3 days old. Grinding using my Mazzer e doserless. It does seem to produce a pretty respectable amount of crema, but my ratio is about backwards of what you describe with only around 20 of the shot looking like it is crema to me. I can shot some photos or video of my pull tomorrow if that would help to see what I am doing.

Maybe I am just limited in what I can do because of my cheap espresso machine. I am fairly happy with alot of my shots, and the crema seems like it is the proper consistency to be able to product latte art in. (even though I feel I am getting far less than 80% crema). However my milk is consistently too thick to make latte art that looks nice.

Don't get hung up on Crema volume. There are gorgeous tasting espressos that don't produce much crema and there are horrible espressos that are 100% crema on extraction. If it tastes good to you then you're doing great.

[malachi]

Judging by taste good idea but not always.

If it tastes good it is good.
End of story.

[malachi]

In his Malabar Gold brochure, Dr. Josuma writes that "crema is the most important indicator of espresso quality."

And if you like the taste of Malabar Gold - you'll probably agree with him.

[pauljolly65]

If it tastes good it is good.
End of story.

I agree. It's often commented here that we tend to get too hung up on numbers--quantities, ratios, times, etc.--and lose sight of the essential fact that how it tastes is, for most of our purposes, the only thing that matters.

Once we've figured out what tastes good, then we can get on to replicating it--and call forward all those numerical gods and goddesses as we pursue the repeatable grail (forgive the oxymoron). I almost never time shots anymore; since the advent of the bottomless PF, I watch the extraction for the clues of when to stop. Every now & again I get curious and time a shot just to see where I'm at, and it confirms just how useless that information is to me.

So remember this: no matter the quantity, time, and crema:espresso ratio, if it tastes good then you're getting something that most folks would wait in line to pay $2 for. Amen to that!

[RapidCoffee]

And if you like the taste of Malabar Gold - you'll probably agree with him.

Regardless of taste preferences, I happen to think Dr. Josuma is correct. I could also quote Ernesto Illy:

Using the recommended 30 seconds of percolation, a skilled barista (coffee bar technician) produces about 30 milliliters of dense coffee liquor covered by the all important crema.

("The Complexity of Coffee", Scientific American, 2002)

Are we really in disagreement here? Playing devil's advocate is all fine and good, but remember that the OP is pulling 2.5oz liquid plus 0.5oz crema from 15g of freshly roasted coffee grinds. Experimenting with smaller volumes (at least for "standard" double espressos) seems like sound advice.

[Psyd]

Yeah - I'd probably hate it. But if you like it - it's "proper" for you and I'll support you in that regardless of what others think or say.

I like chocolate milk, but to call it a proper double espresso just isn't 'a good thing' (tm).
Taste isn't really the only issue, here, regardless of how cool a tag-line it is. The very reason that we have different words for different things is so that we can easily differentiate between the two. Mantric repetition of personal slogans aside, the question was what is the proper size of a double espresso (see the thread's subject if there is any question) and the answer is that 1.5 to two ounces makes it a proper doppio, and anything outside of that makes it something else altogether. There is no judgment on that statement. Just because it isn't a proper doppio doesn't make it 'bad' or 'less', just 'other'. 'Doppio' isn't just only a description of how it was made or with what, but volume, in the end, as well.

There are lots of things that taste good. This doesn't make them a proper double espresso. It makes them the other things that they are called.

[jamiedolan]

I doubt its the machine - I can consistently pull 90% crema shots with good beans, a hand grinder, and the cheapest Saeco pump machine on the market:
Since owning my spring lever, I come to realize that lots of crema does not equal good espresso. I can get the 90% pours with it, but they are not always the best-tasting shots. Your espresso should taste good (to you) - crema is an important part of this, because of the texture that it imparts. If you want the all-crema texture you can focus on the right beans, grind, etc. to get it. I think darker roasts produce less crema in general.

Perhaps the espresso blend I was using just needed a few days of rest time after it's roasting? On day 4, it was like magic and I started getting excellent crema, like 70% of the shot was crema and they tasted quite good as well.

Jamie

p.s. I can tell that I am blowing some shots due the the temperature coming out too hot on this machine. When I think i had a bad shot, and I pull off the portafilter, the coffee grounds are boiling.