Proper distribution technique when "down dosing" using WDT

[beans]

I have an La Spaz S1 mini (53mm portafilter) and I dose it with between 16.5 and 17.5 G of espresso from the Mazzer E doserless. I use a chopstick and stir the grinds WDT. Then I tap the portafilter on the counter to settle the grinds. The problem is that when I use this amount of coffee the grinds do not mound over the rim of the portafilter. This makes a level distribution almost impossible. However, when I tamp, the tamp is just at or slightly below the retainer ring, so the amount of coffee seems correct. There is an imprint from the nut but not the screen after the shot. Shots are between1.75 and 2 oz, between 25 and 30 seconds long. Lots of crema (90% ish), tiger striping, good taste, ie pretty good. The problem is that there is usually (50% of the time) some channeling which I can clearly see using the bottomless portafilter. I am betting this is because of the distribution. Either that or I am tamping too hard....Anyone else have this problem? Any suggestions?

Much appreciated!

[ChrisC]

Here's what I do:

http://www.home-barista.com/forum...w-t5817.html#70268

Also, try a paperclip unbent so the end is straight, or a large sewing needle, instead of a chopstick -- you'll end up with a flatter surface that you can just gently shake back and forth to even out completely.

[woodchuck]

Beans, 16.5 to 17 grams is still a fair amount of coffee for the S1. You might try dosing down to betwen 14 and 15 grams depending on the coffee. Also try your WDT without tapping the pf to settle the grounds. Usually WDT fluffs the coffee up enough or me to get a nice levelling wipe.

Cheers

Ian

[HB]

The problem is that there is usually (50% of the time) some channeling which I can clearly see using the bottomless portafilter. I am betting this is because of the distribution. Either that or I am tamping too hard...

A canted tamp can cause channeling, but tamping too hard? That's a new one. As for distributing below the rim, I've excerpted my reply from the thread cited above:

So the question... If you only fill a double basket with 14g, which is less than flush with the rim, how do you level?

I use the Stockfleths Move for Dummies:

Instead of resting your finger lightly on the rim of the basket, press down firmly so the bottom flat of your finger rides below the basket's edge. The curve of your finger will scrape off grounds as you rotate the basket. It's fairly easy to dose to 16 grams with a standard Faema-style basket using this technique; with practice, you can dose to 15 grams or less (the dose in the video was 15.5 grams). For extreme downdosing of less than 14 grams, place your finger across the basket with the tip of your finger riding below the inner rim while rotating the basket, scraping off grounds to the desired level.

It's a lazy man's version of what David suggested above with his curved plastic scrapers. For more ideas, see Dosing less than level with the rim of the basket.

That said, I'm a bit puzzled by your earlier comment:

I use a chopstick and stir the grinds WDT. Then I tap the portafilter on the counter to settle the grinds. The problem is that when I use this amount of coffee the grinds do not mound over the rim of the portafilter.

Why settle the grounds unless you want to updose? I don't tap, jiggle, or otherwise attempt to settle the grounds when dosing below 16 grams.

[Marshall]

I have an La Spaz S1 mini (53mm portafilter) and I dose it with between 16.5 and 17.5 G of espresso from the Mazzer E doserless. I use a chopstick and stir the grinds WDT. Then I tap the portafilter on the counter to settle the grinds. The problem is that when I use this amount of coffee the grinds do not mound over the rim of the portafilter. This makes a level distribution almost impossible. However, when I tamp, the tamp is just at or slightly below the retainer ring, so the amount of coffee seems correct. There is an imprint from the nut but not the screen after the shot. Shots are between1.75 and 2 oz, between 25 and 30 seconds long. Lots of crema (90% ish), tiger striping, good taste, ie pretty good. The problem is that there is usually (50% of the time) some channeling which I can clearly see using the bottomless portafilter. I am betting this is because of the distribution. Either that or I am tamping too hard....Anyone else have this problem? Any suggestions?

Much appreciated!

How about this. You live in San Francisco, which has no shortage of great baristas. Go down to Ritual or Blue Bottle or any other great shop during their slow times and watch what the baristas are doing. Really watch them. If it's very slow, talk to them about what they are doing.

You will see it takes them about five seconds to prepare the grounds after they are done with the grinder. Then do what they do and forget all the other stuff you have read here about yogurt cups, gram scales, needles, haystacks and other rituals and talismen.

[HB]

You will see it takes them about five seconds to prepare the grounds after they are done with the grinder. Then do what they do and forget all the other stuff you have read here about yogurt cups, gram scales, needles, haystacks and other rituals and talismen.

You forget that they'll be using Roburs or similar grinders, which don't suffer from distribution and clumping issues like most grinders discussed on this forum. Every Friday I'm at Counter Culture's espresso lab and every Friday I don't think for a moment of employing the WDT. In the Robur's case, the WDT would only degrade an already perfect distribution.

[Marshall]

You forget that they'll be using Roburs or similar grinders, which don't suffer from distribution and clumping issues like most grinders discussed on this forum. Every Friday I'm at Counter Culture's espresso lab and every Friday I don't think for a moment of employing the WDT. In the Robur's case, the WDT would only degrade an already perfect distribution.

Are you saying any barista without a Robur needs a yogurt cup?

Any barista worthy of the name can pull great shots on the average home equipment owned by H-B posters. It's just not that hard, and I think it's better to learn real barista skills than to develop a dependence on unnecessary crutches. San Francisco isn't Iowa. Any espresso enthusiast living in a barista-rich town like San Francsico should take advantage of the opportunity to learn from the pros.

[HB]

Are you saying any barista without a Robur needs a yogurt cup?

No, I'm saying pro equipment is a lot easier to use than home equipment. For the longer answer, see Why don't pros use the WDT? and The Weiss Distribution Technique is NOT a 'cheat'!

It's just not that hard, and I think it's better to learn real barista skills than to develop a dependence on unnecessary crutches.

By the same logic, temperature surfing a Rancilio Silvia is a crutch, and I agree it is one... for overcoming poorly designed espresso equipment.

[ChrisC]

Why settle the grounds unless you want to updose? I don't tap, jiggle, or otherwise attempt to settle the grounds when dosing below 16 grams.

Hi Dan,

*After dosing a weighed amount of beans only,* I jiggle the PF back and forth, just to get the grinds all nice and flat, and I tap the PF down on the counter to knock the fines a little deeper into the basket, thereby hopefully creating a little more resistance for a longer, more even extraction (especially with my Silvia, which I hear 'attacks the puck' pretty hard, or some such thing). But again, that's only AFTER dosing the amount I know I need -- it's not to try to cram a few more grams in.

Just to clarify that there are two different kinds of tapping.

Thanks,
Chris

[HB]

I tap the PF down on the counter to knock the fines a little deeper into the basket, thereby hopefully creating a little more resistance for a longer, more even extraction... Just to clarify that there are two different kinds of tapping.

Thanks for the clarification, but I understood you correctly the first time. If you're using the WDT, there's already plenty of fines resettlement. Perhaps too much; look for very dark extractions that blond out early as evidence of this. I don't see a need for settling the grounds in this case, especially if the goal was to dose below the rim.

[ChrisC]

Hmm -- I get better extractions, less spitting from channeling, and they blond later. I figure the tap kind of replaces the slight downward pressure of a normal Stockfleth's or what have you when the level of the grinds is below the rim to start with.

Maybe it's a Silvia thing, and on a better machine it would be detrimental, though. I'll do some more experimenting. Thanks Dan.

[HB]

Maybe it's a Silvia thing...

It could be.

For what it's worth, I've noted that lots of WDT stirring or settling the grounds will product "front loaded" espressos where the first third of the extraction is emphasized. For some blends that's not a bad thing, especially if you like intense chocolate notes in your lattes. It tends to throw off the balance of straight espressos, at least for the equipment I use most. That's one reason I use the WDT sparingly, even if the grinder distribution is less than perfect.

[ChrisC]

Again, very good to know, thanks Dan! I have a doserless Rocky, so I tend to WDT to death. But I do love the chocolates.

Still, worth experimenting with a bit, a variable I hadn't thought of.

Thanks again!

[RapidCoffee]

I have an La Spaz S1 mini (53mm portafilter) and I dose it with between 16.5 and 17.5 G of espresso from the Mazzer E doserless. I use a chopstick and stir the grinds WDT. Then I tap the portafilter on the counter to settle the grinds. The problem is that when I use this amount of coffee the grinds do not mound over the rim of the portafilter. This makes a level distribution almost impossible. However, when I tamp, the tamp is just at or slightly below the retainer ring, so the amount of coffee seems correct. There is an imprint from the nut but not the screen after the shot. Shots are between1.75 and 2 oz, between 25 and 30 seconds long. Lots of crema (90% ish), tiger striping, good taste, ie pretty good. The problem is that there is usually (50% of the time) some channeling which I can clearly see using the bottomless portafilter. I am betting this is because of the distribution. Either that or I am tamping too hard....Anyone else have this problem? Any suggestions?

Hi Todd, and welcome to H-B. I do not recommend using a chopstick or other blunt instrument to stir the grounds. That can contribute to channeling. Try a long thin tool with a decent handle, like a dissecting needle or dental pick.

Have you considered eliminating the tap entirely? I have no experience with the La Spaz baskets, but it's worth a shot. If you don't want to use Dan's modified Stockfleth approach, you can also use the WDT needle tip to help level the surface below the rim prior to tamping.

Your pours sound pretty darn good already, so I doubt you'll need much modification of your current approach. Try a slight downdosing or even a different batch of beans, and you might find the channeling goes away.

[cannonfodder]

I use the back of my little finger. I just knock off the top of the dose in a NSEW motion, thump the portafilter down on the tamping stand 3 times and tamp. The thumps are key for me. That settles the dose in the basket and levels it off for the most part. There is usually a slight rise in the center but not much.

I am dosing 14-15 grams in a Faema style double basket in my Elektra. Down dosing, if you want to call 14 grams that, was necessary for me. The Elektra machines have deep dispersion blocks and do not work well with updosed baskets. At 17 grams the puck is touching the shower screen and will squirt you with channel jets. When I tamp, the top of my Reg Barber piston is a couple thirty-seconds of an inch below the top of the basket.

[jesawdy]

Like John advises, I'd drop the chopstick for something much much thinner. I used to use a thin bamboo skewer and a thin needle is much better.

If I am employing the WDT, I use the handle of the dissecting needle to cut level the basket when I am dosing that much coffee (and some grinders/coffee fluff real well with the WDT so it is not always "overdosing"). Sometimes I will scoop "level" with a bent finger if I want to remove a tiny bit of coffee, finishing with a slightly concave surface. If I am finishing dosed well below the rim of the basket, I will sometimes lightly tap both sides of the portafilter to jostle level, or I will skip any additional leveling all together.

[CoffeeOwl]

if you dose over 16g then you are not asking for 'WDT for downdosing', you have a distribution problem and plenty of posts to learn from, like this for instance.
For that amount of coffee (>16) I just do the Stockfleths.

[beans]

thanks for all the replies... I should have explained a bit better.. the 16+ G in the basket is in NOT what I would consider down dosing and is the reason "down dosing" was put in " ". I am sort of surprised that 16+G gives me a mound of coffee BELOW the rim of the portafiliter and thus gives me a problem when trying to level the grinds before tamping. Also the reason that I tap the portafilter down was to try and level the grounds a bit that way so that I could tamp a flat surface.

I am going to definitely use something smaller than the chop stick and I will try the little bent finger approach to level the basket.

The thing that I have found is that if I either add more coffee, or I tamp too hard, I get squirting and if I reduce the coffee amount I get channeling... so it "seems" as in my best guess, like the right amount of coffee. Anyone out there using an S1 have this issue?

By the way I did NOT have this problem with the 58mm baskets on my livia 90. These 53 MM baskets are narrower and deeper and seem to have more room above the retension clip. The S1 also has a deep screen. These two facts combined seem to mean that 16G of coffee remain below the lip of the basket. Any specific S1 experience out there?

Thanks for all the suggestions!

[matthyx]

I have had the very same problem with my 58mm Faema filter: using it with 15 grams (I am using an AWS scale with 0.1g accuracy) of fresh coffee from my previous grinder (a Faema Family with tiny flat burrs) always produced a coffee level below the rim, before tamping and WDT.

The problem disappeared with my new Cimbali Max grinder. My guess is the new grinder produces a fluffier grind and I am now able to use my pinky to level the grounds.

[CoffeeOwl]

I'm a bit surprised because from my experience 16g is above the basket rim (I do have S1 like you). So I just do Stockfleth move and tamp, result is: no problems. However, if you do wdt first (as I understood from what you wrote here) then yes, you will have the grinds below the rim, but what's the reason for not having them already level? Usually I dose 15g of coffee and it is below the rim from the beginning, then I wdt to level the coffee and then tamp - result: no problems. I mean no-problems-each-and-every-time.

A canted tamp can cause channeling, but tamping too hard? That's a new one.

I guess I've seen it somewhere over here at H-B some 9 months ago... anyway, from my experience also, tamping too hard may cause side channeling. At least I had that on my previous machine and on Vivaldi once, the very early days when I set very fine grind and then tamped it all hard (and didn't have Espro yet).