Problems with my new Rancilio Silvia

[Daniel N.]

Just bought the Rancilio Silvia with the Rancilio Rocky and I cannot make a good single espresso shot. I'm using Starbucks Italian beans grinding at the 5 setting, loading the portafilter with 7grams and tamping with the Espro 30lb tamper. I am preheating the unit for 30 minutes and using the "Cheating Miss Silvia" technique BUT I still cannot get a good espresso with crema... it comes out watery and bitter. Should I use the two cup basket to get into the right setting? What am I doing wrong? The instructions I got with the unit from 1st-line.com have not helped very much. I would really appreciate advice. Please help!!! Thanks! Daniel

[cannonfodder]

... and I cannot make a good single espresso shot. I'm using Starbucks Italian beans...

That is the problem. That coffee makes good compost, but lousy espresso. Order some fresh roast from an online micro roaster. Any of the HB sponsors will do nicely.

[Psyd]

loading the portafilter with 7grams

Oh, and use the double basket. Silvia is a bit particular when pulling doubles, but an absolute bear to get the singles right consistently. Drink doubles, make a friend, or toss half of it out, but it's easier to get consistently good with the double basket. Go with 15 - 16g of coffee in it as well, and adjust your grinder accordingly. Go finer if you get over two ounces in thirty seconds, coarser if you get less than an ounce in thirty, and fine tune it for an ounce and a half in about 25-30 sec, once you start getting god results.
If you must use Starbucks beans, check with the black apron at your store. Make sure its slow when you do. tell him you want fresh roasted, within the last three days. Some of the Black Apron Exclusives arrive straight from the roaster, as do some of the beans for the baristi to utilize. He probably won't know what you 're talking about at first, or even why you'd need them within the first coupla weeks, but he should come around.
CF was right, you're probably using beans that have been on the shelf so long they're beginning to resemble it.

[jggall01]

Hi, Daniel -

I'd suggest that you go ahead and make use of the Starbucks beans to practice getting your grinding, dosing, and tamping under control. (When you get fresher beans, you will probably only have to tweak the grinder setting by one notch up or down).

I find that shots that are a little slower than "ideal" usually taste OK. But shots that gush out quickly need to go in the sink. So try and err on the side of longer, smaller extractions. Regardless of time or volume, when the stream gets thin and pale, stop!

Getting rid of the single Rancilio basket is an absolute necessity. And while the double basket that came with your machine can make good shots, I'd suggest you pick up a ridgeless LM double basket next time you feel the need to order something online (I got mine from EspressoParts.com, but probably they are widely available).

The LM ridgeless basket holds a little more coffee, and it just seems to be easier to get consistent shots with it.

*Only* after you get the grind, dose, tamp routine down and are getting the consistent shots that Psyd described, you will probably want to learn to temperature surf with Silvia. Your thermostat allows a pretty wide range of boiler temperatures. Getting the brew temperature in the right range will improve your shots, too (but not quite to the same degree as those other things).

Your setup will allow you to pull great shots once you get the hang of it.

Jim

[cannonfodder]

Hi, Daniel -

I'd suggest that you go ahead and make use of the Starbucks beans to practice getting your grinding, dosing, and tamping under control. (When you get fresher beans, you will probably only have to tweak the grinder setting by one notch up or down).
Jim

I will rebuttal that comment. The problem is that once you get fresh beans, your grind will change, your tamp will change and your brew temperature will change essentially nullifying everything you have done to date. Worse yet, you may pick up a bad habit trying to use old sub par beans. Keep them to do your seasoning shots after a backflush but don't try to use them for practice.

[miKe mcKoffee]

*Only* after you get the grind, dose, tamp routine down and are getting the consistent shots that Psyd described, you will probably want to learn to temperature surf with Silvia. Your thermostat allows a pretty wide range of boiler temperatures. Getting the brew temperature in the right range will improve your shots, too (but not quite to the same degree as those other things).

And I'll rebuttal this statement.
Not temp surfing Silvia, ie simply pulling shot 100% at random in relation to boiler heating cycle, will result in ~30f possible temp shot variation. That is huge and will greatly effect both pour speed and taste every bit as much as grind, dose and tamp. Without consistent temp it will be impossible to get consistent pours even with consistent grind, dose and tamp.

[AndyS]

Not temp surfing Silvia, ie simply pulling shot 100% at random in relation to boiler heating cycle, will result in ~30f possible temp shot variation.

Obviously there are large swings in boiler temperature due to the action of the mechanical thermostat. But these are ameliorated somewhat by the thermal mass of the group. Have you actually measured (with a Scace device or equivalent) 30F temperature variation of the brew water?

I would gladly do the experiment, but my modified Silvia no longer allows the use its original t-stat.

[another_jim]

I once spent a day trying to get a good shot with the Rancilio single -- I found it impossible to even get one that didn't channel, no matter which machine I used.

The current Silvia tstat is set to 100C, and produces around 200F at the group. So just brew when the light goes out. If it's sour, hit the steam switch for about 5 seconds prior to brewing. There's no need to do the old style surfing (which was a product of the 110C brewstat)

[Daniel N.]

Many thanks to all! I will discard the single basket and use the double basket from now on. My Silvia also came with a 3 cup bottomless portafilter... any advice about this one vs the double? In the mean time I ordered a few pounds of Black Cat that I expect to arrive late Monday. I will keep you posted on my progress. Daniel

[HB]

My silvia also came with a 3 cup bottomless portafilter... any advice about this one vs the double?

Jon penned suggestions in Making a beautiful "naked" triple espresso. I have a love/hate relationship the triple baskets. They can make for a decadently sumptuous espresso, but it's not a cure-all for channeling. On Silvia, it will give you a wider margin of error.

[miKe mcKoffee]

Obviously there are large swings in boiler temperature due to the action of the mechanical thermostat. But these are ameliorated somewhat by the thermal mass of the group. Have you actually measured (with a Scace device or equivalent) 30F temperature variation of the brew water?

No, my Silvia was PID'd when first used Thermofilter. The same passively heated thermal mass that tends to ameliorate boiler temp differences is also responsible for ~12f shot temp creep in a shot series by about shot 6. That was measured with Thermofilter.

I would gladly do the experiment, but my modified Silvia no longer allows the use its original t-stat.

I'd experiment but don't even have Silvia anymore! You could easily by-pass your boiler PID and enable/re-install tstat, but you'd of course also need to disable your brew boiler water pre-heater and grouphead PID heater. Hmmm, for sake of comparing to a stock Silvia IIRC you'd need to get rid of the rotary pump too.

[AndyS]

I'd experiment but don't even have Silvia anymore! You could easily by-pass your boiler PID and enable/re-install tstat, but you'd of course also need to disable your brew boiler water pre-heater and grouphead PID heater. Hmmm, for sake of comparing to a stock Silvia IIRC you'd need to get rid of the rotary pump too.

Yes, this experiment should really be done by someone other than you or I.

[Daniel N.]

I finally received a few pounds of Black Cat. I am grinding with my Rancilio Rocky DOSERLESS Coffee Grinder. I started with a fine settings of 4 which is too fine. Then moved up in increments of 1, up to a coarse setting of 9. I am tamping at 30 lbs. with the ESPRO automatic coffee tamper.

I get my best 30 second shot with the grind set at 9 into two small illy espresso cups (each cup is half full) BUT the crema is minimal and a light brown in color (I can take digital photos). The taste is good but I would not say it would knock your socks off! I had just as good if not better shots from my old Starbucks Barista machine. BTW, all of the pucks have a small indent from the screw and generally there is water floating on top of the puck.

My wife can not understand why I spent more for the Rancilio Silvia and it takes so much effort to my produce a good shot with lots of crema. Please advise! Many thanks, Daniel

[HB]

BTW, all of the pucks have a small indent from the screw and generally there is water floating on top of the puck.

Silvia has a well-deserved reputation of being "finicky". Pay very careful attention to distribution and consistent dosage. Consider using the WDT. It's easier to offer diagnostic advice if you have a bottomless portafilter and can post a video. The puddle of water on the puck's surface indicates you could increase your dosage and lower the grinder setting. Generally speaking, the puck will be firmly pressed against the screen at the end of a good extraction on Silvia (or any machine equipped with a 3-way solenoid) because the coffee swells with water.

[Daniel N.]

Hi Dan,

OK, I will read the linked articles. I have a 3 cup naked portafilter... so I'll start some test tonight. I need to locate a digital camera so I can record and share the results. I am determined to get it right!

Many thanks, Daniel

[jesawdy]

I have a 3 cup naked portafilter... so I'll start some test tonight.

Daniel-

I would not start your diagnostics on a triple basket... stay with the double untill you get it.... you can pop out your double basket and install it in the nekkid. The triple has its own set of issues.

My $0.02.

[HB]

The triple has its own set of issues.

It's been a long time since I've used it, but I remember the triple being more channel resistant on Silvia than the double. Or is my memory fading? Of course you'll go through coffee very fast.

[OlywaDave]

My guess from reading this thread before is that it is the coffee first and foremost.

However you might be right Dan... I use a triple basket on my Silvia and it is possible that it is more channel resistant. You can try the 18 gram "Synesso" basket we got at Espresso Parts. In fact I'll try it out tomorrow on my Silvia and let you know.

That is I'll try it out right after we hook it up with the new PID kit we are installing and testing tomorrow... we may even include some pics.

[jesawdy]

It's been a long time since I've used it, but I remember the triple being more channel resistant on Silvia than the double. Or is my memory fading? Of course you'll go through coffee very fast.

Dan-

You may well be right... my suggestion was based on Jon's comment in the article How to make a beautiful "naked" triple espresso

Distribution in the triple basket can be problematic. Often the dose ends up heavier in the middle and lighter at the edges (causing uneven extractions). After trying the mid-tamp, my extractions became more consistent. The most common sign that the distribution needs work is a "donut" or lopsided extraction. You'll see very little flow from some area of the basket (usually the center) and the edge blondes early. For ristretto this is more pronounced and will make a shot that tastes earthy rather than sweet.

Of course, Jon is not using Silvia.

I think I have only pulled 3 triples on Silvia, I had no troubles but this was after about 4 months of previous experience with her.

I look forward to Dave's results.

[Daniel N.]

Hi Dan,

I am using my two cup basket in my three cup portafilter and using WDT. Still trying to dial in the grind setting... I think I need to a finer grind. Can you suggest a suitable pointy implement; or a place purchase a dissecting needle to sure the grounds for uniform distribution? I hope to have a video clip next week for all the evaluate.

Many thanks, Daniel