Problems with dosing and distribution

[lsf]

Hi,

I'm new to espresso world and I'm still experiencing with the Andreja Premium and the Rocky grinder I bought 2 weeks ago. What I don't understand so far is how to get my dosing and distribution right. There are a lot of articles around on the internet, I read all of them, but there is one thing I still don't get.

In most of those articles, they recommend you overdose the basket and distribute the coffee by using special techniques with your fingers. The thing I don't understand is that if I completely fill the double basket coming with my machine, I get 18 grams of coffee. No matter how hard I tamp it, the coffee bed touches the dispersion screen. 15-16 grams give the right clearance but then, I'm having troubles distributing it evenly since those 15-16 grams don't fill the basket completely. I've tried doing it with my little finger but it's impossible to have a flat surface to tamp.

What's the reason for this? Is my basket to big? My grind too coarse or not fluffy enough?

Thanks for helping !

[jesawdy]

My experience with the Rocky (doserless) is about the same, to hit 14-16g in most baskets, you need to finish below the basket rim before tamping. I have been happy with my results by doing the WDT as follows:

Dose your 14-16g in the PF basket/handle
Stir in the basket without a yogurt cup (a cup would allow you to stir more vigorously however)
Clean off the portafilter ears/tabs with a finger sweep, or pop out the basket and invert the PF to dump the stray grounds
Jostle the PF a bit to level the grinds, a few gentle sideways taps on the PF ears works for me
(You could try to do something similar to a Stockfleth's move below the basket edge, but it is tricky IMO)
I then set my tamper in gently and ensure it is level
I follow with a single firm tamp if the tamper to basket fit is tight, or finish with a NSEW tamp if the basket to tamper fit isn't dead on

[Jasonian]

Is the Rocky Doserless, or not?

Distribute as you dose.. focus on the landing.

Post-dosing distribution is a fix for an error that need not exist.

Doing it this way will allow you to just sweep it level and tamp. No need to overstuff the basket or mess with unneeded accessories.

[lsf]

Thanks for helping

I'm using a doserless version and I've already try to stir the coffee inside the basket with a small wooden stick. Even when doing so, the coffee doesn't make it to the rim and I still cannot use a move to level it.

So far, I keep seeing little pinhole in the coffee puck when removing it.

Anything else I could try?

[hgs]

have you tried grinding finer and tamping lighter? my experience is that you get fluffier dosing with a finer grind (possible high enough to level), but when you tamp, it will compress lower.

[lsf]

Hi,
I know it doesn't say much but I'm already grinding at the 7-8 settings on the rocky. I though it would be fine enough. However, I'm gonna give it a try tonigh when I get home.

Thanks for helping !

[lsf]

Hi,

I've been doing some more experimenting with dosing over the last few days and I still don't understand how I could get the distribution to be right. I found that when using 16 gr, I can see a small impression (dispersion screen) on the coffee bed (lock in and remove the portafilter without activating the pump). although this could be related to an "uneven" tamping, 16-17 grams seem to be the biggest dose I can use. Once more, those dose doesn't fill the basket and it makes it impossible to distribute it properly. I'm trying to figure out what the problem could be and I can only think of two things:

1) Rocky isn't up to the task and cannot produce a fluffy enough grind.
2) The beans I'm using are too heavy so 16g doesn't gives enough volume.

I don't understand !
Help me

[Jasonian]

What coffee are you using?

[lsf]

I'm using the coffee I can buy from the shop where I bought the machine. It's roasted on site and usually quite fresh. I don't know what blend it is though...

[HB]

The thing I don't understand is that if I completely fill the double basket coming with my machine, I get 18 grams of coffee. No matter how hard I tamp it, the coffee bed touches the dispersion screen. 15-16 grams give the right clearance but then, I'm having troubles distributing it evenly since those 15-16 grams don't fill the basket completely.

Are you settling the grinds while dosing by tapping? The stock basket without settling should dose about 14 to 15 grams; the tamped puck surface will be below the ridge at that dosage. At 17 grams, the puck surface is near the middle of the ridge. Some coffees naturally grind more compactly; if you want to downdose with them, try removing the portafilter's retention spring and dosing in the basket outside of the portafilter. Curve your finger downward and redistribute the grinds in a circular motion, finishing with the surface slightly below the rim (final weight will be around 15 grams). If you have an accurate scale, double check the weight before gently dropping the basket into the portafilter.

[lsf]

Still don't understand... I've just tried to fill the basket and level it. No settling at all except some "portafilter shaking" against the grinder's forks while filling. 18 grams on my scale... Without settling, 16 gr is slightly above the ridge. I'll post a photo of the 16 grams when I'll have some more time. I'm left with the same question. Is it a coffee issue, a rocky issue or a barista issue

[lsf]

Hi,

Here is the image of my 16 grams. The image is quite blurry but you can still see that the coffee is too low in the basket. I was thinking of grinding the coffee in a jar so that I can shake it and make it less compact. Do you think this could help ?

Thanks


[/img]

[jesawdy]

Still don't understand... I've just tried to fill the basket and level it. No settling at all except some "portafilter shaking" against the grinder's forks while filling. 18 grams on my scale... Without settling, 16 gr is slightly above the ridge. I'll post a photo of the 16 grams when I'll have some more time. I'm left with the same question. Is it a coffee issue, a rocky issue or a barista issue

The "portafilter shaking" is settling the grinds which will contribute to updosing. I used to do that too on my Rocky doserless and stopped once I realized how much it was affecting my dose.

It could be a combination of Rocky/coffee/barista. As I said above, it has been my experience on Rocky and the baskets that I use, 14-16 grams may be less than a level strike across a heaped basket.... you'll have to experiment to find out what works for you.

EDIT - If you still find you are getting too high a dose, you might try Ian's approach here:

I have a doserless Macap MC4. Grind directly into the basket in the PF with a yogurt cup funnel cut down to about 1¼in. [This is the one benefit derived from trying the WDT for several months.] Gently shake PF side to side to level grounds. Remove funnel. Down dose with curved tool or your crooked finger to 'declump'. Lightly rap PF once or twice VERTICALLY on counter to level the coffee.....

[lsf]

Hi,

I'm gonna try this tomorow morning as it's getting late now and if I want to be able to sleep... If I used to shake the portafilter, it's because I thought it could make the distribution to be more even. Rocky tends to make some clumping. Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing the result of your suggestion.

thanks

[lblampman]

Hi,

Sorry to jump in here so late (really busy and having trouble getting to the forums as often as I would wish).

I have the same setup you do; an AP with the Rocky grinder. I'll relate what I do since it's really simple. I did remove the portafilter rest on the Rocky doserless (it just pulls straight out if you haven't tried it).

I hold the portafilter under the Rocky chute and crank her up. As the grounds drop from the chute (they're pretty fluffy) I move the portafilter around to get the grounds to distribute more evenly (these are small movements). I grind until there is a slight mound in the center just above the rim of the portafilter; the edges are a bit lower. I take my tamper and set it on the grounds and lightly press down and when I feel some resistance I finish the tamp (maybe in the 20 pound range). On my basket the final level after tamping is just a hair under the ridge. I clean the ears of the portafilter and lock it in. To the outside observer the whole process looks like 1) grind 2) tamp 3) lock in the portafilter 4) pull the shot. The only "things" I'm adding are the small movement of the portafilter under the doser to even out the dose a bit and starting light on the tamp to level the grounds.

I'm a minimalist; I figure if I can't grind, tamp, and pull a shot without a bunch of other procedures in the way the dude on the end of the portafilter handle needs to get better. I also don't care much what the puck looks like when I'm done (unless it really went to soup or cratered), if the shot pulled well and it tastes good in the cup I'm good. I also don't worry about the dispersion screen impression; I always got one on my Silvia and it doesn't seem to bother my AP now. I still think consistency is the key; if you can pull bad shot after bad shot but they're all bad in exactly the same way you're doing better than someone getting superb shots mixed with horrible shots (unless they're testing). Do the same thing time after time and change one thing to see what the result is. [For instance, I think the dispersion screen thing isn't an issue for me because I consistently dose and tamp the same way and I suspect in the beginning I made adjustments for whatever affect dosing as I do had on the situation. If I try to dose down now I have to change the amount of grounds in the basket, likely the grind, and maybe even my tamping. That's too many changes in my opinion (at least for me), especially when I get shots I like with no fuss.]

I'll add one more thing that I've not seen mentioned...time. It just takes time to acclimate to a new setup. I don't care how long you've been driving, when you jump in a car you've never been in before there's a sense of disorientation. That goes away with time and the more you drive that car the happier your subconscience is and the more intuitive things become. Try as you might with your new machine, no matter how analytically you approach the thing, you'll do better and better as the "sense" of the machine embeds itself into your brain and you start making unconscience adjustments to tweak things; or you instantly recognize, even before it happens, that things just aren't "right" on a particular shot. I can tell the moment the tamper hits the grounds and I start to lightly press down whether or not my dose was correct; it's not because I'm focusing on (or obsessing on) the dose, its just a motor skill that's become so ingrained that if even the slightest thing is wrong I get a little warning sense.

Best wishes and enjoy that new machine!

[lsf]

Hi,

I think my problem was the shaking of the portafilter. Since yesterday, I made three espresso without any shaking, I leveled the dose and check on the scale. Finally, I have those 16 grams. I first thought that the non-shaking method was gonna increase chanelling since the distribution could have been affected. Those apprehensions weren't justified. I even think that there is less channeling since the number of pinholes tends to decrease.

However, I'll have to experiment further to confirm this trend and see if it can be attributed to an unconscious change in my technique. What matters now is that I can dose properly !

Thanks for helping.

[cannonfodder]

I don't shake, tap or otherwise mess with my dose. When I do, I overdose. My machine is very sensitive to overdosing. I simply grind, working the doser while I grind. My dose is below the sides of the basket but I have a small peak that protrudes above the basket sides in the center. I do a quick NSEW sweep with my little finger to level that off, give the portafilter a gentle single downward tap on my tamping stand to settle out any air pockets and tamp. That gets me 16g in my double basket.