Problem with Sticky Lever on Giotto (+ On Backflushing)

[KarlSchneider]

this past week I have experienced a disconcerting problem with my Giotto (original model bought 10/02 on which I pull 4 shots daily). When I start to pull a shot as I move the lever from 6 o'closk clockwise up to 9 o'clock I encounter significant resistance at about 8 o'clock. I have to use extra force to get the lever up to 9 / to get the pump to start. The lever returns to 6 o'clock after the shot very smoothly (normally). Up to this week I had noted this after a backflushing with Cafiza but it went away immediately.

Suggestions are much welcome.

KS

[HB]

Lots of E61 owners complain about sticky levers after a chemical backflush; it even made Chris' Coffee FAQ under "What happens if I backflush too often?" After a couple shots, the oils from the coffee naturally lubricate the valve and it again moves freely (of course I am assuming that the lever itself is responsible for the resistance, not the switch).

Alan Bookman has an unorthodox approach to moving the lubrication process along in his review, excerpted below:

The E61's only drawback is that if it is back-flushed with espresso cleaner too often, it will lose internal lubrication and start sticking. Coffee oils in the system actually lubricate the mechanism. The group still has to flushed, at least with hot water, so that the coffee oils don't thicken or get rancid and spoil the flavor of the espresso.

I tend to back-flush the group head too much and sometimes I've had the lever start feeling sticky. I found that I can lubricate with a tiny droplet of mineral oil. I dip the handle of a demitasse spoon into the oil and let it stop dripping, tap it against the side of my sink to get more excess oil off, and then just touch the end of the spoon to the inside of the blank porta-filter basket. I back-flush with this to get the lever operating smoothly. (As far as I know, this is NOT a Chris approved procedure).

Mineral oil? Not sure it will handle high temperatures well, but I confirmed it is food-safe in small quantities (otherwise I would be tempted to remove the valve assembly and apply some high-temperature food grade lubricant). Given the tiny amount of mineral oil involved, I would give it a try... anyone disagree?

PS: To take some of the mystery out of the E61 inner workings, check out this exploded diagram.

[KarlSchneider]

Dan,

I did backflush this past Saturday. Perhaps too aggressively? I have pulled at least 28 shots since. Still sticky.

May try the lubricating.

KS

[HB]

It's distinctly possible that you used too much chemicals, many do. I use the teenie spoon on the end of the Pallo Coffee Tool:

It looks to be a mere 1/2 teaspoon and that seems to be enough.

[KarlSchneider]

I don't think I used much more than a scant 1/2 t. I now think this is indeed the problem.

I looked at the exploded diagram. Am a little uneasy about opening that whole thing. I don't have the engineer instincts like you and many do.

KS

[Teme]

Hi Karl!

Just out of curiosity: how often do you backflush with the detergent in general? The reasons I ask:

- Perhaps your problem has not been caused by a single backflush with too much detergent, but rather to frequent backflushing with detergent? Just a thought...
- I have been wondering about the appropriate interval myself...

Br,
Teme

[sheygetz]

@Karl,

I remember discussing the pros & cons of lever vs solenoid operated E61s with quite a few knowledgeable people here in D. I was told more than once that backflushing (the purpose of which is to remove oils/ grease etc.) over time reduces the lubrication of the lever, and that as a consequence you'd have to re-grease the moving parts of the lever every now & then. So, to me the phenomenon you describe comes as no surprise. (I don't remember which kinda grease - and the name would prolly mean naught your side - but it definitely was grease, not oil.)

sheygetz

[KarlSchneider]

Hi Teme!

The instructions i received on backflushing were to backflush every 25-50 shots. Given my 4/day routine I tend to backflush once a week. Up until this week this did not seem to create any problems during the previous 125± weeks.

My backflushing routine. I place slightly less than 1/2 t (ca. 2 g) Cafiza in the blind basket. I flush for 5-7 sec. Loosen the basket 1/10 of a full rotaation and flush another 5-7 sec. Rotate another 1/10 do another 5-7 sec. On this third flush the notches on the pf are still but barely engaged in the grouphead. Fluid seeps out over the sides of the pf.

At this point I remove the pf. And here is where I think I may get into trouble. I note that in the blind pf there is liquid but in the bottom there is remaining some "white sludge" (moistened but not fully dissolved detergent). So, thinking all the detergent should be used I pour off the liquid on top and repeat the three flushes again. After this the blind pf basket has no more "sludge" in the bottom.

I suspect that I should either flush less often or not do the second set of flushes.

I welcome advice.

KS

[Teme]

Hi Karl,

This is enlightening to me. Based on this thread as well as this one: http://www.home-barista.com/forums/graduating-to-e61-t341.html, I have decided to step up my detergent backflushing intervals. So far I have done it at 3-4 week intervals and I have noticed some off-taste towards the end of this interval. There is also quite a bit of "gunk" that comes out after the backflush. So, going forward, I will be detergent backflushing at 1-2 week intervals depending on use.

I think sheygetz's comment below makes sense and I'd rather do some re-lubrication than put up with an off-taste and compromise the cleanliness and perhaps even the durability of the machine.

I remember discussing the pros & cons of lever vs solenoid operated E61s with quite a few knowledgeable people here in D. I was told more than once that backflushing (the purpose of which is to remove oils/ grease etc.) over time reduces the lubrication of the lever, and that as a consequence you'd have to re-grease the moving parts of the lever every now & then. So, to me the phenomenon you describe comes as no surprise. (I don't remember which kinda grease - and the name would prolly mean naught your side - but it definitely was grease, not oil.)

In terms of the backflushing procedure itself, I let PF stay in for about half a minute after the first detergent backflush and then do another one without removing PF. After this I take the PF off, rinse it clean, put it back in and do another backflush. I repeat this until the water both in the blind filter and coming out from below the group into the drip tray is clear. If I understand correctly, you do not rinse the PF/blind filter during the process? Again, I'd be interested in hearing thoughts from others on what would be "best practice" here...

Btw, I see cannonfodder has written a nice article on machine cleaning for the SwagFest...

Br,
Teme

[KarlSchneider]

Teme et. al.,

It turns out that my problem was not over backflushing. Without lubricating I solved my problem this afternoon. While messing around in the kitchen I was standing in front of the Giotto (which was turned off). I moved the lever to see how much resistance I would feel. The first 90 degree turn (6 to 9) had similar resistance as reported above. A second try seemed to disloge something inside the micro-switch behind the cam at the end of the lever. A third turn and the lever moved as smoothly as usual. This evening I made three shots and the lever moved smoothly as usual. I conclude the problem was not lack of lubrication but some kind of restriction in the micro-switch.

From this scenario I infer your plan to backflush every 1-2 weeks is fine.

I look forward to reading Cannonfodder's discussion of machine cleaning.

I have to confess that I find your Swagfest entry by far the most compelling. I have drafted in my head several commetaries on it but have hesitated to post them. I do not think you will find many who agree with you. There is a powerful interest in technology on this list and technophiles don't really grasp what you are saying. It is too removed from classic American experience. We produced the Model T which was a car that everyone could afford. Henry Ford shipped Model T's with a manual telling owners how to remove the heads, grind the valves and replace the heads. He simply assumed everyone could do this. This is not in essence different from PID'ing an espresso machine just a different generation of technology.

You have pushed me to the brink of ordering an Elektra Micro Casa a Leva and selling my Giotto. And, what is so special about this group -- they will help me learn how to use it properly.

Chacun a son gout.

KS

[Teme]

Karl,

I am happy to hear that the problem is resolved. I am also flattered by your comments - I am actually expecting some flak when the forum is open for comments (due to the reasons you mention), but that was sort of the point.

I am actually looking forward to week 30 when a friend will be bringing over his LaPavoni lever - he is thinking of upgrading to a semi-auto and we will be spending some time pulling shots with the two machines and sharing thoughts...

Br,
Teme

[cannonfodder]

Hi Karl,

Btw, I see cannonfodder has written a nice article on machine cleaning for the SwagFest...

Br,
Teme

Thank you.

I noticed that after my chemical backflush I get a little added resistance and an occasional squeak from the lever for the first couple of shots. After that it goes away. I imagine you could recreate the backflush sequence (on, off, purge) with grinds in your double basket just to push some extra oil into the three way valve after a cleaning. I don't know if that would be the best option. I just pull a couple of extra shots and sip away.