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Link to "Posting Style"by Ken Fox on Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:21 am

...split from Strange noise coming from my Andreja Premium, 5 months old by moderator...



HB wrote:Am I the only one who's weirded out by three similar responses within three minutes of each other? :shock: :lol:


this occurred because nearly all of the intelligent people have migrated over to your website, Dan. Had this been posted on alt.coffee, there would have been 3 responses, 2 of which would have been self-promotional sales pitches for a PID'd Silvia, from the same person using two different posting identities, and the third one would have been someone complaining about the two preceding posts.

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Link to "Posting Style"by SJM on Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:40 pm

Ken Fox wrote:this occurred because nearly all of the intelligent people have migrated over to your website, Dan.


I know, I know, I should leave this alone, but as a person who finds useful information on multiple coffee sites, I found this insulting.

And beneath the same dignity that is being attributed to the forum.

Rant over.
Heading to the sink to wash mouth out with soap.

Susan
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Link to "Posting Style"by Ken Fox on Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:09 pm

SJM wrote:I know, I know, I should leave this alone, but as a person who finds useful information on multiple coffee sites, I found this insulting.

And beneath the same dignity that is being attributed to the forum.

Rant over.
Heading to the sink to wash mouth out with soap.

Susan


With all due respect, the great bulk of the intellectually interesting posts and threads on the english language coffee boards are right here on home-barista.com

Sure, you can find some posts by people with well known names on another site, but their posts don't tend to be very deep or impart much knowledge; they certainly do not explore new things or do any original research, something one finds here nearly every week.

And, without meaning to be personal, I think one has to make some significant contributions, to make an effort beyond chatty posts, to have a comment such as yours taken seriously. At least that is true, for me.

ken
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Link to "Posting Style"by SJM on Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:20 pm

Ken Fox wrote:And, without meaning to be personal, I think one has to make some significant contributions, to make an effort beyond chatty posts, to have a comment such as yours taken seriously. At least that is true, for me.

ken


OUCH !
Yup, shoulda left it alone.

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Link to "Posting Style"by Ken Fox on Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:55 pm

SJM wrote:OUCH !
Yup, shoulda left it alone.

Susan


I'm well aware that I have a posting style that is sometimes interpreted as abrasive. At the same time, I spend a lot of time doing original research about which I actually post here, unlike some very brainy participants here who often keep their results to themselves. Like some others here, I also spend a lot of time answering questions, which takes a lot of time and I'd like to think helps at least some people.

I am not compensated for this in any way and have no position of authority other than for chief-splinter-in-the-a** of one Dan Kehn, as he slides down the banister of life :mrgreen:

I guess I just don't have much patience for posts having to deal with posting style, when the posting style is not intentionally or obviously offensive.

ken
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Link to "Posting Style"by HB on Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:08 pm

SJM wrote:I know, I know, I should leave this alone, but as a person who finds useful information on multiple coffee sites, I found this insulting.

To provide a bit of background, Ken is a long-time alt.coffee participant. As an unmoderated newsgroup, it's had its share of spammers and trolls. This thread reminds of the section entitled Translating the Elements of Good Communities from the Offline to the OnlineWorld of the chapter Scaling Gracefully:

Despite applying the preceding tricks, it is always possible for growth in a community to outstrip an old user's ability to cope with all the new users and their contributions. Every Internet collaboration system going back to the early 1970s has drawn complaints of the form "I used to like this [mailing list|newsgroup|MUD|Web community] when it was smaller, but now it is big and full of flaming losers; the interesting thoughtful material is buried under a heavy layer of dross." The earliest technological fix for this complaint was the bozo filter. If you didn't like what someone had to say, you added them to your bozo list and the software would hide their contributions from your view of the community.

The combined factors of a given site's focus and its place in the community development lifecycle have an effect on the tone of the discourse. I find these distinctions neither good or bad, just "different." HB narrowly focuses on the "espresso fanatic"; sites like CoffeeGeek focus on the interests of a very broad audience; TooMuchCoffee focuses on its regional audience (i.e., only those in Europe can join); Coffeed focuses on professional interests and its membership is by invitation only. While I naturally prefer HB (surprise, surprise), I value participation in other venues as my time allows. In other words, I believe that choice is good.

Ken Fox wrote:I'm well aware that I have a posting style that is sometimes interpreted as abrasive.... I guess I just don't have much patience for posts having to deal with posting style, when the posting style is not intentionally or obviously offensive.

Ken has his curmudgeonly moments, but it's a small price to pay for the effort he puts toward helping others through his research and forum contributions. Were that not the case, I'm sure he'd be banned from just about any site within a few months. :P
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Link to "Posting Style"by Ken Fox on Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:06 pm

quite a way to kill a discussion, splitting it off to a forum that no one ever reads. That's such a good idea, I'm surprised I didn't think of it first.
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Link to "Posting Style"by another_jim on Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:04 pm

Hi Susan,

Nice to see you here.

A bit of history: Until 2004, the only coffee forum was the alt.coffee news group, which had a relatively small core membership (i.e. people posting several times per week). These people knew and mostly respected each other, so that they occasionally telling one another that a post of theirs was ignorant, wrong or perverse didn't do much harm. Newbies asking questions were given rude but informative answers. If they had a thick skin and were enthusiasts, they stayed on; if they were missing one of these, they left.

CG and many of the Non US net fora opened in 2004 and 2005. They were to be kinder and gentler places were newbies got a friendly welcome. Mark got a lot of flak from other alt.coffee members for doing this; but it was clear that the day of newsgroups was passing -- new internet people simply didn't know gopher, news groups, ftp or anything else except the www existed. I, as one of the early moderators, was all for this, although frequently grumbling privately that I'm not the answer desk (I even got some angry emails from people when I became brusque, telling me I wasn't worth my salary).

Within a few years, it became clear that my grumbling was emblematic of many of the old timers feelings. There is always idle chatter on fora. It is fun if you know the people, and boring if you don't. With the membership exploding, the chatter by unknowns became overwhelming and tedious. Good user filters, like are found on newsgroup software, would help for this.

But the real problem is more serious. Newbies need to learn how to use a forum, and being ultra nice to them all the time doesn't accomplish this. There was an explosion of questions that had been answered correctly hundreds of times before posed by people unaware that it is mandatory to do a search before posting questions. Obviously, the experienced people just stopped answering.

This was the second big mistake. When experienced people stopped answering, people who knew nothing did. After a year of this, CG has become very much compromised as an information archive. A search will produce as many answers by people who don't know what they are talking about as people who do. So now it's pointless for newbies to do a search before asking a question, since they won't get a trustworthy answer. Historical note for non alt.coffee people: the regulars on alt.coffee thought the most valuable part of it was the archived posts that could be searched for good answers on most questions. This is what CG has now lost, perhaps irretrievably so.

This has led to the exodus of most of the experienced posters. HB has become their home, along with alt.coffee die hards finally tearing themselves away from the grave site, like Randy. HB has, ironically, become a bit of a reunion of alt.coffee regulars from 4 years ago. Of course, there are even more new enthusiasts, either home grown, or from CG's more exciting days.

Ken's being less than kind and gentle is a service to the community (granted it's one that he probably enjoys), since it cuts down on idle questions, and even more importantly, on idle answers.
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Link to "Posting Style"by jesawdy on Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:31 pm

HB wrote:Were that not the case, I'm sure he'd be banned from just about any site within a few months. :P

Ha! I actually laughed out loud. Some of us read to just to see what Ken will say next. It's part of the fun.

Ken Fox wrote:quite a way to kill a discussion, splitting it off to a forum that no one ever reads. That's such a good idea, I'm surprised I didn't think of it first.

I don't think it's dead yet.

FWIW, I *think* Susan is one of the new Moderators on CG, which might explain her initial offense (corrections welcomed).

When I get hot and bothered by an e-mail or a post, I try to resist the temptation to immediately respond and cool off for about 30 minutes or so and still see if it still bothers me. Usually, it does not. Works for me most of the time.
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Link to "Posting Style"by HB on Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:38 pm

Thanks Jim, a great insight into alt.coffee history and the influence of web-based forums.

another_jim wrote:But the real problem is more serious. Newbies need to learn how to use a forum, and being ultra nice to them all the time doesn't accomplish this. There was an explosion of questions that had been answered correctly hundreds of times before posed by people unaware that it is mandatory to do a search before posting questions. Obviously, the
experienced people just stopped answering.

This issue has been a real struggle: How to handle answering the already asked question for the 100th time?

My strategy is posting links to previous discussions, referencing the FAQs, and sometimes merging the repeated question into the previous incantation with a marker "...merged with existing thread on same topic..." The keys to retaining my sanity while doing this sort of bookkeeping are (a) recognizing that resurfacing old discussions frequently leads to new insights, and (b) using my reply referencing previous discussions as an opportunity to draw them together or elaborate on a point that may not have been raised before.

(As an aside, this is one of the reasons the site search is optimized for blazing fast performance -- I'm probably the #1 user of it!).

Ken complains that I buried his thread in this forum by splitting it off. However, I'm always thinking of the reference value of a given topic; wide excursions to another unrelated subject, as was the case for this thread, dilutes the value of the original thread. Often a thoughtful split will spurn an entirely new level of interest in the second topic. It's a handy tool for building on a discussion, if used sparingly.

jesawdy wrote:FWIW, I *think* Susan is one of the new Moderators on CG, which might explain her initial offense (corrections welcomed).

Partially correct. Susan tried it and decided it wasn't her thing (Decision to Change Status explains why).
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Link to "Posting Style"by Ken Fox on Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:52 pm

HB wrote:
Ken complains that I buried his thread in this forum by splitting it off. However, I'm always thinking of the reference value of a given topic; wide excursions to another unrelated subject, as is the case for this thread, dilutes the value of the original thread. Often a thoughtful split will spurn an entirely new level of interest in the second topic. It's a handy tool for building on a discussion, if used sparingly.




The first sentence is incorrect. I applauded you for doing so and bemoaned the fact that I hadn't thought about it first myself.

This original thread had already run its course, as umpteen people had already come to the correct conclusion, the OP had acted upon and I believe agreed the problem was in the OPV, so it had nowhere to go.

ken
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Link to "Posting Style"by SJM on Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:12 pm

Thanks, Jim.
I really wasn't going to come back to this thread, because I thought that I poked Ken in the eye and he poked me back and we should just be quiet after that. However, the consideration that you and Dan have brought to the discussion, and the humor that I detected in Ken's last post, made me reconsider.

Ken's post hurt my feelings. Plain and simple. I understand that this community is a somewhat more elite one that the one at coffeegeek, and I have been very aware of myself in that context. When I came here I came here because I was fascinated by levers, and so I got a couple, and I've been trying to find out all about them. I ask lots of questions, but I expect that the people who are answering them understand that it is their option to do so; it isn't a demand. In an effort to make the interchange fun, I try to interject some personal information, some pleasantries, some humor. I see it as an exchange; I'm trying to provide a pleasant environment for the person supplying me with the information he/she has gleaned. I see that it can be interpreted as frivolous and unnecessary.

I know that you and I have had a bit of a conversation at another time about the lines that need to be drawn to keep the masses from sucking the energy out of the important contributors. It's not an issue without merit, but we are on opposite sides of that line: your value is indisputable; you are an expert; you have credentials. I'm a seeker after the information that others here have; I seem to have deluded myself into thinking that my willingness to be a humorous supplicant and a reasonably quick learner would make me a worthy participant. Ken informed me otherwise, and it's never fun to find out that someone wishes you hadn't come to the party.

You will be glad to know that I have run out of steam.
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Link to "Posting Style"by Jasonian on Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:23 pm

...coffeed?
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Link to "Posting Style"by SJM on Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:27 pm

Ken Fox wrote:That's such a good idea, I'm surprised I didn't think of it first.


This, by the way, is what I thought was very funny.
I do appreciate well placed arrogance !

Nite.
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Link to "Posting Style"by Ken Fox on Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:31 pm

HB wrote:
This issue has been a real struggle: How to handle answering the already asked question for the 100th time?

My strategy is posting links to previous discussions, referencing the FAQs, and sometimes merging the repeated question into the previous incantation with a marker "...merged with existing thread on same topic..." The keys to retaining my sanity while doing this sort of bookkeeping are (a) recognizing that resurfacing old discussions frequently leads to new insights, and (b) using my reply referencing previous discussions as an opportunity to draw them together or elaborate on a point that may not have been raised before.




This certainly helps, but truth be told, stuff changes, or at least our perception of it does.

This reminds me of the old joke about the opening lecture at medical school, where the dean gets up, addresses the new class, and starts out by saying, "50 percent of what you will learn here is incorrect. The only problem is, we don't know which fifty percent."

To give but one example, this site is full of excellent machine reviews done by Dan in a style no one else has equalled on any other site. As good as these reviews are, they are flawed, or at least most of them are flawed, in my view, by the fact that Dan uses or at least used 18+g doses (like the rest of us) when he was testing these machines. Some of us, certainly myself, have concluded that none of these machines was really designed to use such large doses, and the fact that a machine basically barfs on 18 or 20g doesn't necessarily tell you anything about the machine when used as it was designed to be used, with Italianate doses of more like 12 to 15g in a double basket.

The Cimbali Jr. review reflects the same observation that I had with the same machine, i.e. it is not easy to use for someone who isn't experienced in basket preparation. This observation led me to modify this machine with a pressure regulator and a delay timer, which cut down on the problems. I'm pretty sure now that this mod was unnecessary had I been using doses for which the machine was designed, and I'm equally sure that had Dan tested it with 12 or 14g doses, he would have come to a different conclusion on its usability.

an aside: when Jim Schulman was here visiting recently, I pulled some simultaneous paired shots for him on my two Juniors, one made with 14g and the other with 18 or 19g. I switched back and forth as to which machine pulled which shot, so both vibe and rotary pulled both 14g and 18-19g shots. It was fascinating to watch the comparison, in real time. The machines basically "rejected" the overdosed shots, and reacted with noises and violent foaming. The appearance of the shots immediately after they were pulled were so dramatically different, that had I tried to blind taste them I would be unable to be objective since the difference in the appearance was so obvious.

I only picked this example because I am intimately familiar with it. But I'm sure there are hundreds or more likely thousands more examples of stuff being said here that appeared to be correct at the time but later was shown likely to not be correct.

Short of spending time that no one has available to update all this stuff, not just reviews but many posts and many threads, I think one is always stuck with having to interpret postings as maybe being correct in the light of what was known at a particular time, but this espresso stuff changes just like medical knowledge does, over time.

ken
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Link to "Posting Style"by Ken Fox on Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:36 pm

SJM wrote:Thanks, Jim.
I really wasn't going to come back to this thread, because I thought that I poked Ken in the eye and he poked me back and we should just be quiet after that. However, the consideration that you and Dan have brought to the discussion, and the humor that I detected in Ken's last post, made me reconsider.

Ken's post hurt my feelings. Plain and simple. I understand that this community is a somewhat more elite one that the one at coffeegeek, and I have been very aware of myself in that context. When I came here I came here because I was fascinated by levers, and so I got a couple, and I've been trying to find out all about them. I ask lots of questions, but I expect that the people who are answering them understand that it is their option to do so; it isn't a demand. In an effort to make the interchange fun, I try to interject some personal information, some pleasantries, some humor. I see it as an exchange; I'm trying to provide a pleasant environment for the person supplying me with the information he/she has gleaned. I see that it can be interpreted as frivolous and unnecessary.

I know that you and I have had a bit of a conversation at another time about the lines that need to be drawn to keep the masses from sucking the energy out of the important contributors. It's not an issue without merit, but we are on opposite sides of that line: your value is indisputable; you are an expert; you have credentials. I'm a seeker after the information that others here have; I seem to have deluded myself into thinking that my willingness to be a humorous supplicant and a reasonably quick learner would make me a worthy participant. Ken informed me otherwise, and it's never fun to find out that someone wishes you hadn't come to the party.

You will be glad to know that I have run out of steam.
Susan


Susan,

I have to first apologize in that I had no idea that you were a long term coffee site poster or even a moderator on other sites. I glanced quickly at your posts before I made my response, and they were overwhelmingly little chatty things, so I came to the wrong conclusion for which I am sorry.

It is very easy to misinterpret written material in a medium such as this, which lacks all external cues such as body language, which those of us who have survived this long (in the real world) tend to pay more attention to rather than just what is spoken.

Maybe you are just in the process of thickening up you skin, for the real battles that lie before you in the future on this forum!

ken
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Putting the fox in charge of the coffeehouse

Link to "Posting Style"by AndyS on Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:50 am

Ken Fox wrote:when Jim Schulman was here visiting recently, I pulled some simultaneous paired shots for him on my two Juniors, one made with 14g and the other with 18 or 19g. I switched back and forth as to which machine pulled which shot, so both vibe and rotary pulled both 14g and 18-19g shots. It was fascinating to watch the comparison, in real time. The machines basically "rejected" the overdosed shots, and reacted with noises and violent foaming.



My dear dear dear dear Ken, :)

This is ridiculous. Just because you're too lazy to use the proper grind, proper basket and proper technique for an 18g dose doesn't mean the Junior can't make excellent shots at that dose.

Your friend,
-AndyS
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Link to "Posting Style"by SJM on Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:03 am

Good Morning All, and I'm glad to be here.
Thanks, Ken, for extending your hand to me, and I take it gratefully.

I admit to thin skin.
I'm too old to think it will actually get tougher, but

Thanks for talking me through my snittiness
And I will try to learn MORE and chat a bit LESS.

Susan
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Link to "Posting Style"by Ken Fox on Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:15 am

AndyS wrote:My dear dear dear dear Ken, :)

This is ridiculous. Just because you're too lazy to use the proper grind, proper basket and proper technique for an 18g dose doesn't mean the Junior can't make excellent shots at that dose.

Your friend,


The one thing I did not do was switch baskets, but the baskets I did use were the ones I've been using most of the time for the last several years. The only other option would be to use LM triple baskets, since the baskets I used have as much or more head space as any double baskets I've used on my machines. And I have a huge collection of double baskets, including what I have been told are the largest available, so that would not be the issue.

The grinds used for these shots were appropriate, producing proper time/volume relationships in both shots pulled. As far as taste was concerned, We intentionally used a coffee that we thought would work ok at the larger doses. I believe that Jim liked the 18-19g doses as much (but not more) than the 14g shots (he was served them blind). What I referred to was what I saw and heard from the machines, not the shots produced.

If your point is that any dose over, say, 15g requires use of a triple basket, it may be valid. Being as triple baskets are not the norm for any machine other than an LM, it supports the notion that for most machines, using more than Italianate dosing is not what the machines were designed for. For example, there is no current OEM double PF basket sold by Cimbali for my machines, and in order to go beyond that size one has to go either generic or LM, and use a bottomless PF, also not something sold by my manufacturer.

Considering what you have done with your machine, the argument about using equipment as intended is obviously not going to ring very true.

So I guess, dear Andy, I could have done this little informal test with either two triple baskets or one double and one triple, but I'm not sure the results of that would have been valid, either.

Your car is designed for driving on paved roads at reasonable speeds. You could probably drive it at 75 miles an hour on some dirt logging roads, and barring some sort of accident you would get away with it. I could say the problem is just the tires you are using, that you could do this all the time with the right tires. But then again, it would probably work better being used with road tires on a proper road.

ken
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Link to "Posting Style"by CraigA on Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:38 pm

Ken Fox wrote:Susan,

I have to first apologize in that I had no idea that you were a long term coffee site poster or even a moderator on other sites.


You really should get out & about more Ken... :o
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