Are we led astray by sweetness?

Grinders are one of the keys to exceptional espresso. Discuss them here.
coffeemmichael
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#1: Post by coffeemmichael »

Bit of exposition here, feel free to skip if you're already familiar with the audiophile world:

Massdrop, for those who don't know, is a website that acts as a middleman between large groups of interested buyers and manufacturers. They currently are offering two incredible headphone deals at just $199 each, well below retail price: a rebranded Sennheiser hd650 as the hd 6xx, and a rebranded AKG K701 as the Kxx.

By all accounts, the AKG is more clinical & exacting in its reproduction of sound, whereas the Sennheiser is a touch less clear but more "fun" to listen to due to its emphasis on a more lively sound that is less clear but more vibrant where it counts.

(I've had a pair of Sennheiser hd598's since late 2010, paired with a DAC and receiver)

Setting the stage with titan grinders
Until a few months ago I had daily access to a ditting kr804/clover combo for just under two and a half years. Around the time I lost that, I purchased my used ek from @russel and have had that in my home since. In addition, i've routinely used three separate kr1203's for brewing.

The ek is by far the sweetest of these grinders, though there are times that I look back on my time with the kr804 and think about the clarity it brought to my brews (not just the clover) and miss it.

The big question
As you extract more and more above 22% with the ek, sweetness continues to rise. At about 24% on mine, sweetness totally dominates the cup over clarity. After several months with my ek I don't think it is as clear as the kr804, though the ek is undoubtably more sweet.

Are we enjoying a "less accurate" (read: slightly less clear in exchange for a bump in blunt pleasure via sweetness, i'm not talking about *less accurate* as in conical burrs) flavor profile and promoting it as the best because sweetness is easy to identify and everyone seems to like it?

Look to Beats-- bass is pleasurable! Bass sounds good, feels good, is exciting. So is sweetness. Now the analogy to beats is not my point here, this next comparison is:

The Sennheiser HD650 and AKG K701 are in the same "class" of sub-$1k open-back headphones, yet the HD650 is the apparent king in this realm due to its pleasurable and less harsh sound.

In yearning after one characteristic (sweetness, liveliness, bass) over balance (clarity), are we altering our judgments of raw products (wanting to listen to Dr.Dre productions instead of Butch Vig, wanting to taste naturals or east africans over washed coffees/ coffees from less-desirable origins) in a negative way to favor those that have characteristics we like, even if those that are lacking said trait are still excellent in every other regard?

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BaristaBoy E61
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#2: Post by BaristaBoy E61 »

I have 1970's legendary JBLs (Paragon components) with compression drivers; sounds great with tubes. I've always wanted electrostatics (Martin Logan/STAX). Yes, there's a parallel with coffee & grinders.

But are we so far into the weeds that we can no longer 'Smell the Coffee' or hear the melody?
"You didn't buy an Espresso Machine - You bought a Chemistry Set!"

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aecletec
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#3: Post by aecletec »

I think some cafes have - after being served multiple different SO cups and they all taste dull and sweet I wonder what the info and tasting notes were for.
I prefer clarity so I brew that way at home.

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iploya
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#4: Post by iploya »

I'm totally lost.

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Almico
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#5: Post by Almico »

coffeemmichael wrote:The big question
As you extract more and more above 22% with the ek, sweetness continues to rise. At about 24% on mine, sweetness totally dominates the cup over clarity. After several months with my ek I don't think it is as clear as the kr804, though the ek is undoubtably more sweet.
I disagree that higher EY alone leads to greater sweetness. Of the 1100 or so chemical compounds in roasted coffee, the sugars extract easily and are the first flavors to be released. That's why cold brew is so popular. I'm not sure what you're tasting at 24% vs 22%, but it's likely not sweetness.

I'm in the camp that believes that of the 1100 chemical compounds in coffee, some of them taste heavenly, some taste like turpentine. The goal of extraction is to release all the yummy stuff and leave all the yucky behind. Otherwise, if higher yield was the ticket, we would just boil coffee grounds for a few hours and viola.

To answer the "big question", I don't think the descriptor "accurate" is appropriate when discussing coffee extraction. It makes it sound like there is only one perfect extraction and the goal is to hit that mark.

I bounce back and forth between my K10WBC conical and Compak R120 big flat.For the time being I have the luxury of having them set up side by side. I like them both, though they produce different flavor experiences.
BaristaBoy E61 wrote:I have 1970's legendary JBLs (Paragon components) with compression drivers; sounds great with tubes. I've always wanted electrostatics (Martin Logan/STAX). Yes, there's a parallel with coffee & grinders.

But are we so far into the weeds that we can no longer 'Smell the Coffee' or hear the melody?
I have a pair of Altec A5s and 604Cs. Talk about sweetness, compression drivers are where it's at. Anytime you want to unload that Paragon, look me up.

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aecletec
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#6: Post by aecletec »

Almico wrote:I disagree that higher EY alone leads to greater sweetness. Of the 1100 or so chemical compounds in roasted coffee, the sugars extract easily and are the first flavors to be released. That's why cold brew is so popular. I'm not sure what you're tasting at 24% vs 22%, but it's likely not sweetness.
Sugars aren't the only sweet tasting compound in coffee and a wealth of EK reports on higher extractions being sweeter encourage further thought.
For example, Biogenic amines have a sweet taste and are harder to extract in espresso: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 461401872X

Even from way back in Illy's famous Chemistry of Coffee graph isovaleraldehyde is noted to be extracted later in the shot (in combo with others including a-ionone and linalool) which can produce a sweet perception in context.

mbenedet
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#7: Post by mbenedet »

Could you provide some info on your brewing technique and some refractometry data?

coffeemmichael (original poster)
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#8: Post by coffeemmichael (original poster) replying to mbenedet »

This is from brewing with multiple pour-over methods (kalita, hario, chemex), auto-brewers (behmor, wilfa precision, clover) and immersion brews (cupping, french press, aeropress).

I use the atago refractometer and have been measuring since August 2015.

Also, I ended up ordering the Sennheiser's not the AKG. Became clear that the AKG's required more investment into amps than I probably will put into it ever (i've had current setup for almost seven years). If they weren't so power-hungry, the choice may have ended up with picking the AKG's.

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ducats
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#9: Post by ducats »

coffeemmichael wrote: The big question
As you extract more and more above 22% with the ek, sweetness continues to rise. At about 24% on mine, sweetness totally dominates the cup over clarity. After several months with my ek I don't think it is as clear as the kr804, though the ek is undoubtably more sweet.

Are we enjoying a "less accurate" (read: slightly less clear in exchange for a bump in blunt pleasure via sweetness, i'm not talking about *less accurate* as in conical burrs) flavor profile and promoting it as the best because sweetness is easy to identify and everyone seems to like it?


In yearning after one characteristic (sweetness, liveliness, bass) over balance (clarity), are we altering our judgments of raw products (wanting to listen to Dr.Dre productions instead of Butch Vig, wanting to taste naturals or east africans over washed coffees/ coffees from less-desirable origins) in a negative way to favor those that have characteristics we like, even if those that are lacking said trait are still excellent in every other regard?
great questions. i know sweetness is one the big 3 addicting tastes that fast food prays on; the others are salt and fat. the brain is very easily addicted to these. in terms of coffee, have you ever looked at barista hustle's brewed coffee compass? https://baristahustle.com/blogs/barista ... ee-compass sweet is the last desirable flavor before over-extraction, i.e. it's the end of the road. if you don't alter your water to coffee ratio, then the only other variable at play is extraction. it seems the high-density beans have the most potential to be sweet, while low-density beans are more palatable on the other side of the circle where buttery and smooth are located. there's something novel about pushing limits, and if your playing with high-density beans and not changing your water to coffee ratio, then there seems to only be one place to go. ek43 just happens to be the car that is best at getting there. or is it an airplane? no, it's a spaceship. yep, definitely a spaceship.

but, just because you can go there, it doesn't mean you have to. i was at madcap yesterday and had their wave modbar pourover, ground on ek43, of their elefante. https://madcapcoffee.com/buy/coffee/elefante a great cup. but i would say it was brewed to be around the creamy/gentle part of the circle.

even if the ek43's a spaceship, you're still driving the thing.

to tie this back to the food analogy, chasing sweetness is like a fast food place lacing food with sugar/salt/fat. it does not take discretion. sometimes, you have to go to a fine dining restaurant to remember how good something simple like a carrot can taste.

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Almico
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#10: Post by Almico »

Perger also wrote:

In my opinion, the most important aspect to a coffee's flavour is its sweetness. Sweetness is the best. Have you ever heard someone say 'this espresso is too sweet!'? Think about that for a second. I strongly believe that we should always be chasing sweetness. It's my holy grail: something that's really difficult to find and stupendously rewarding once you get it.

https://baristahustle.com/blogs/barista ... o-taste-it

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