Don't get discouraged. Everyone struggles with getting things dialed in (I had my own thread on the topic/frustration of dialing in a few weeks ago, and even the pro barista I took a lesson from went through a dozen shots on new/unfamiliar equipment I brought him).

The fact that what you are describing sounds so far off suggest you are making a fundamental error, which should actually be the most easily corrected. When I say fundamental, I mean something like: using a pressurized filter basket (!) not tamping at ALL (!); using an arbitrary/unmeasured amount of grounds; and/or dispensing an arbitrary/unmeasured amount of liquid. Only once you get those major parameters settled, you can then dial in by making fine adjustments on grind or whatever.

[edited for brevity]

My heart breaks to hear of your troubles, Holly. I went through the same situation 6 months ago as a total 100% newbie when I got my new espresso machine and grinder. Was in the total dumps and teary-eyed.

It took some time, effort and determination but got the first enjoyable shot after several days of study and trial & error.

I can do this now almost in my sleep. If I can do this, you can do this.

The learning process is toughest at the beginning but once past it you will be happy!

Some of the things I discovered on the path...

- Adding the use of scales to ensure the dose is right was a biggy.

- Adding Eric's thermometer to my HX machine E61 group head was a real eye opener.

- Using a naked portafilter clued me in that there were grinds distribution problems that were causing fast shots no matter the grind fineness or coarseness. I fixed that problem by discovering and using WDT to obtain even distribution.

Each batch of beans will dial in differently as a general rule.

You can do this, girl.

rilec wrote:So I'm a total 100% newbie. I know close to nothing about this, but I've been doing as much research as I can and I just received a profitec pro 500 to use with my pre-owned profitec T64. I've spent the last hour+ trying to dial in my grinder to get a drinkable shot and I haven't been able to succeed. I really did not expect it to be this hard to get a halfway drinkable shot, and the discouragement is getting to me so bad that I can't help but wonder if I should return this machine and go for something automatic. As much fun as the hobby of espresso seemed, it's no fun if you can't make it work.


Here's what been happening:

All of my shots, no matter what adjustments I make, have been watery and sour.
To start I chose a random setting on my grinder, filled the basket. Shot came out far too fast. I set it finer and went too fine, the shot took way too long to drip and I got almost nothing. So I took it coarser again, and got one shot within a decent time that smelled/tasted the most decent of them all, but still far too sour and watery. I continued to adjust finer since I read you don't want your shot to start until after 6 seconds (and they all up to this point were starting sooner)...I got it to start at 5 seconds but then the stream was so thin and again, still a watery mess. And after this I gave up because I thought if it wasn't flowing fast enough you are supposed to take it coarser, but at the same time it's showing me I need to take it finer so it doesn't start before 6 seconds??

I don't know what else to do. I feel like I'm getting nowhere, all my shots suck and I'm starting to get upset about going through so much coffee and having spent so much money for such discouraging results.


Any help?

rilec wrote:So I'm a total 100% newbie. I know close to nothing about this...To start I chose a random setting on my grinder, filled the basket. Shot came out far too fast.

I'm still of the mindset that the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one. You mentioned you "filled" the basket. Did you tamp it?

Well, now you make me wonder whether there was sufficient headspace above the coffee...perhaps as someone else pointed out, excessive channeling could be what's happening.

rilec wrote:I am starting to wonder if the machine being an HX is part of the problem? I took the temperature of some of my shots and the temperature was far too low. But the thing is, when reading about HX machines I was under the impression that you shouldn't have a problem pulling shots back to back. If you can't pull shots back to back, how are you supposed to dial in...make one attempt and then put your timer on and wait until you guess the machine is back to temperature?


I apologize if I'm coming across as negative here. I've tried a few more shots, went a little finer to again try to push back the shot start time to 6 seconds and once again nothing even came out. I'm about to start a return

What did you decide? How are things going? I actually had a Pro 500 from Clive also.

rilec wrote:I am starting to wonder if the machine being an HX is part of the problem? I took the temperature of some of my shots and the temperature was far too low. But the thing is, when reading about HX machines I was under the impression that you shouldn't have a problem pulling shots back to back. If you can't pull shots back to back, how are you supposed to dial in...make one attempt and then put your timer on and wait until you guess the machine is back to temperature?


I apologize if I'm coming across as negative here. I've tried a few more shots, went a little finer to again try to push back the shot start time to 6 seconds and once again nothing even came out. I'm about to start a return

An HX will definitely perform differently when pulling a series of shots then when sitting idle, and most espresso machines require some idle time for the group temp to stabilize. One of the reasons commercial machines have multiple groups.

So yes, try waiting at least a minute or two before you pull your next shot.

rilec wrote:I am starting to wonder if the machine being an HX is part of the problem? I took the temperature of some of my shots and the temperature was far too low. But the thing is, when reading about HX machines I was under the impression that you shouldn't have a problem pulling shots back to back. If you can't pull shots back to back, how are you supposed to dial in...make one attempt and then put your timer on and wait until you guess the machine is back to temperature?
(

While a Scace device isn't cheap, really consider getting one. Sometimes you'll find a used one for sale. You'll also need a decent digital thermometer that will work with the T-type thermocouple on the Scace. The good news is that the latter have come way down in price and are very affordable (and can be used for a bunch of other things).

The Scace will tell you a LOT about how your machine works. Every HX machine is different -- and even the same machine will behave a bit differently in different environments. You'll want to understand the best combination of cooling flush and recovery, how to surf for your target temperature, how to most efficiently make the next shot optimally, etc. Nothing else will give you as much useful information as a Scace -- except your own taste buds, but not as methodically.

HX machines are ingenious and easy to use once you know how your particular machine behaves, and you can accurately predict how to get the results you want, and make them repeatable. There are lots of excellent threads on H-B about dialing in HX machines, about your specific machine -- most likely -- as well as about using a Scace. Rather than feel any trepidation about getting and using one, consider that you'll be able to sell it -- if you decide to -- without much depreciation, and you should find the critical insights it will give you into your machine and your method of pulling shots a very liberating experience.

Nunas wrote:Don't get too hung up on too many variables all at once. Start with the grind. Get some fresh coffee and establish where too fine and too coarse are in your grinder. It's been discussed here many times but in a nutshell: Get a little scale with 0.1 gram increments. Put 14 grams ground as fine as your grinder will go into a double basket. Tamp firmly and pull a shot. At this point, nothing or nearly nothing should come out (i.e., choke the machine). If you do get coffee coming out, either the grinder is not set up right or the coffee is really stale. Bin the puck. Move to a slightly finer grind and do it again. Repeat until something comes out, however slowly. When it does, move a little finer and repeat, this time time the shot. Forget for the moment about preinfusion time, just time from when you start to pull until you get 28 to 30 grams of coffee out. When you achieve the proper output in 30-seconds, note the grinder setting. Keep going, going coarser each time until you achieve the proper output in 20-seconds, note the grinder setting. These two settings are your rough guide for a normal shot. Somewhere in between is where you want to be. The exact time depends on the coffee, how fresh it is and your tastes. But, the variance will be more-or-less in between the two noted settings. Don't even taste any of the above shots and don't worry about watery pucks, distributing with a needle or anything else. If you are attentive at this stage, and a little lucky, you'll probably not waste more than a half pound of coffee.

Now for the first real shot. Set the grinder in the middle and see if you can pull a decent 25-second shot. Let us know how it looks and tastes and we can take it from there to help you fine tune.

I came across this thread and felt like it was me talking. Just got a breville infuser and the SPG to pair with it. First bag I was using came from Costco don't flame me. I was by end of it pulling 30sec shots at almost 60ml including crema using double shot single wall. I tried for comparison the pressurized basket but thought better of it when 80% of the shot was crema just felt wrong.

Anyway I changed beans to freshly roasted but by this time they were quite old and a light roast to boot. 5his threw everything for a loop. Finally decided to try fresh fresh and got noble tree reverence being a medium roast. Boy was this a game changer instead of using a time of 17+ seconds on the spg I went down to 11 for almost the same output. Now I'm having the same issues dialing in. I time the shot from when I turn the pump on so including preinfusion. Most of the shot actually starts at 10seconds and ends at 30ish so figure at least a 20sec pour. I can't taste every shot otherwise I'd be dead by now but when timing I can't quite figure out what's too slow and what's too fast and also though I've gotten 1:2 in out ratio it isn't quite the 60ml suggested. Am I being too book centric? I've got a scale but not a .1 capable.

I guess my question is assuming I can pull a shot in the right amount of time for the right 1:2 ratio can it be considered a good shot? I say this because it seems you can play with variants so much to get the same shot that it's like a probability equation. Though the thought of returning and going back to my Nespresso crossed my mind I keep telling myself it's just growing pains and you all know Nespresso is not quite a shot but more of an expensive shot of drip in comparison. In all fairness I'm not a big shot drinker at least yet and have been latteing all shots pulled but that said I'd still like to think it's a proper shot non the less.

Any thoughts? I've posted some dosing questions already but felt this is a good place to inquire with regard to same topic.

How do the shots TASTE? All of these brew ratios, timing, etc are great for achieving consistency, but if it still tastes bad you have to start all over. I think too many starting out (myself included) were obsessed over getting the exact 1:2 in 30 sec to achieve the perfect shot, and many times coming up short wondering what went wrong. It is just coffee afterall, so give it a taste, and if you like your results - good job! If it is sour or bitter adjust your dose and grind accordingly.

Think of these numbers as losse guideline, not rigid facts and you will enjoy the espresso journey much more, I promise! Most of my "bad to mediocre" shots are still better than what most cafes serve - around here anyway!

OK31 wrote:I came across this thread and felt like it was me talking. Just got a breville infuser and the SPG to pair with it. First bag I was using came from Costco don't flame me. I was by end of it pulling 30sec shots at almost 60ml including crema using double shot single wall. I tried for comparison the pressurized basket but thought better of it when 80% of the shot was crema just felt wrong.

Anyway I changed beans to freshly roasted but by this time they were quite old and a light roast to boot. 5his threw everything for a loop. Finally decided to try fresh fresh and got noble tree reverence being a medium roast. Boy was this a game changer instead of using a time of 17+ seconds on the spg I went down to 11 for almost the same output. Now I'm having the same issues dialing in. I time the shot from when I turn the pump on so including preinfusion. Most of the shot actually starts at 10seconds and ends at 30ish so figure at least a 20sec pour. I can't taste every shot otherwise I'd be dead by now but when timing I can't quite figure out what's too slow and what's too fast and also though I've gotten 1:2 in out ratio it isn't quite the 60ml suggested. Am I being too book centric? I've got a scale but not a .1 capable.

I guess my question is assuming I can pull a shot in the right amount of time for the right 1:2 ratio can it be considered a good shot? I say this because it seems you can play with variants so much to get the same shot that it's like a probability equation. Though the thought of returning and going back to my Nespresso crossed my mind I keep telling myself it's just growing pains and you all know Nespresso is not quite a shot but more of an expensive shot of drip in comparison. In all fairness I'm not a big shot drinker at least yet and have been latteing all shots pulled but that said I'd still like to think it's a proper shot non the less.

Any thoughts? I've posted some dosing questions already but felt this is a good place to inquire with regard to same topic.

There were more then a few times I wanted to give up and sell the whole thing. The only thing I can say is hang in there!


Randy