Hello,


So to the chase, I'm having problems pulling 1oz double ristretto shots. Seems like .5 ounce pulls fantastic: its thick, punchy, intense, and balanced. However, when I pull 1oz: it's thin, less intense, more bitter just overall not that intense shot I'm looking for. Seems I've adjusted grind, dose, tamp, and I'm still not able to get that 1oz shot I want. I shouldn't have to adjust grind in between pulling a single or double ristretto should I?

Parameters and coffee info:
I'm using Black Cat Classic
.5oz I use 18 grams (pulls in 25 sec from first drip)
1oz I Use 22 grams (pulls in 30 sec from first drip)
Same grind for both.
My equipment is listed with the exception I'm using an 18g Decent filter for the .5oz and a 22g Decent filter for the 1oz.


Please help, this is driving me insane!!!

Your brew ratios are completely different between those shots. Also, weight your output in grams.

What you're describing for the 1oz version is an over-extracted shot. The shot is running too fast for the dose. You could fix that by grinding finer, but you're correct that you shouldn't have to as long as you use the right dose.

First problem you have is trying to pull by volume. That simply does not work. The crema makes accurate measurement of volume difficult or impossible, and the volume tells you nothing about the all-important brew ratio, which is the dose weight divided by the beverage weight. That is the concentration of the espresso, which you need to know to get what you're aiming for.

Since you're weighing the dose, you must have a scale, hopefully accurate to 0.1g. You don't need that much accuracy to weigh the beverage -- 1g resolution will do, but if it's small enough to fit on the drip tray you can use your dose scale to weigh the beverage as you're pulling. I weigh every shot.

A classic Normale brew ratio is 1:2 (50%). Ristretto brew ratios are under 1:2. A typical mild Ristretto ratio would be 1:1.5, which in percentage terms is 67% (example: 18g dose producing 27g beverage). It sounds like you are pulling much tighter, so you could start with 1:1 (100%) or an even lower ratio (higher percentage). That should produce a very thick drink.

Your numbers are bit confusing. Nominal dose for a single Normale is 7g and a double would be 14g. You're supposed to change the grind to make this work, but Jim Schulman pointed out that if you dial in for a double, you can pull a single at about 55% of the double dose weight without changing the grind. So, if your double is 18g, your single would be 12g. This assumes you're using appropriately-sized baskets -- i.e., a single (7g) basket for the single and a double (14g) basket for the double. The 55% figure comes from the difference in hole area. You can measure the hole area of your two baskets to determine the right dose ratio.

Although it's typical to updose when pulling Ristretto, your doses are a bit more like doubles and triples. But it doesn't matter. The key thing is to pull to a specific beverage weight which hits the desired brew ratio. Once you've done that, the situation will become clearer.

I would speculate that you haven't updosed enough to double the drink size, and probably can't because you're already at the largest basket size. Measuring the hole area ratio should tell you how much you have to increase the dose when moving between the 18g and 22g basket. With the doses you're using, the difference in hole area should be no more than about 20%. If it's larger, then that would explain why the shot is running too fast and is over-extracting. You would need a larger dose to compensate, and that's probably not possible.

Or, you may not be distributing into the larger basket correctly, and channeling is causing the flow to be too fast and over-extract. Or, there isn't enough headroom in that basket and the puck is breaking up when you insert the PF. Another possibility is that you're not using an accurate enough scale for the dose.

ok, thank you everyone for your replies. Special thanks to Peppersass for the in-depth reply.

I will try to adjust my grind again to produce a 1:1 ratio drink at 1oz. I've burnt through all my espresso trying, so ill have to order some more. Seems if I dose up too high my machine chokes, and if it's not near choking I don't get that punchy espresso taste I like, but up dosing past 22g seems to get closer to the taste I want.

Also, just wondering, does anyone actually have any experience with my setup and beans that I'm using? I'm wondering what works for other people as their preferred taste, maybe I'm pulling it a bit tight? My concern here is I want it to cut through a 12oz latte if need be. Seems .5oz is fine for 4-6oz drink but over that drinks start to taste milky to me.


Thanks

Peppersass wrote:What you're describing for the 1oz version is an over-extracted shot. The shot is running too fast for the dose. You could fix that by grinding finer, but you're correct that you shouldn't have to as long as you use the right dose.

While I agree that his shot is over-extracted, grinding finer isn't the answer as it will only increase the extraction further. His ext% is high, and his strength is low - meaning his yield needs to be lower. Grinding finer increases both ext% and strength. Decreasing yield lowers ext% and increases strength.

OP, report back to us with the yield in grams rather than oz, and we can help you further. As Peppersass said, 1:2 is pretty standard for a great espresso, it's where I always start out when dialing in and adjust from there. If you want ristrettos, grind finer so your 1:2 hits like 1:1.5 within your goal brew time. Also check out this thread that talks about "should a ristretto be properly extracted"

wolf wrote:ok, thank you everyone for your replies. Special thanks to Peppersass for the in-depth reply.

I will try to adjust my grind again to produce a 1:1 ratio drink at 1oz. I've burnt through all my espresso trying, so ill have to order some more. Seems if I dose up too high my machine chokes, and if it's not near choking I don't get that punchy espresso taste I like, but up dosing past 22g seems to get closer to the taste I want.

Also, just wondering, does anyone actually have any experience with my setup and beans that I'm using? I'm wondering what works for other people as their preferred taste, maybe I'm pulling it a bit tight? My concern here is I want it to cut through a 12oz latte if need be. Seems .5oz is fine for 4-6oz drink but over that drinks start to taste milky to me.


Thanks

The dose has nothing to do with the machine choking, it simply means your grind is off, as your dose increases your grind is going to get coarser most likely due to more coffee offering more resistance, you'll also want a basket big enough to accommodate, I think your ok with up to 23g in the 22g La Marzocco basket, past that and you'll probably start running into the screen, even at the basket rating on our machine you'll often see a slight impression from the screw. I have the exact setup you do (machine and grinder), but I've swapped the stock .8 restrictor for a .6. I assume you want ristrettos for the particular taste, but would not a normal double in the same size cup actually increase the coffee flavor since the ratio of milk to coffee with decrease? We use 8oz latte cups at home and pull 20in and 37-40g out for my wifes lattes, I only drink 5oz capps and shots so no milk concerns there.

The advice on the thread is good. Also, the baskets that come with the Linea Mini are *very* good and appear to be VST Baskets (if not actually made by VST). I haven't seen the Decent Espresso baskets to compare, so I'm not knocking them, but the ones LaMarzocco supplies with the LM are very good indeed and work well on the machine.

It is difficult without beverage weights to understand what you're brewing. 0.5 ounces is about 14 grams and 1 ounce is about 28 grams. Presuming that's what you're shooting for, the brew parameters are pretty considerably dose heavy.

18g dose for 14g beverage is about 1:0.8 which is really highly over dosed even for ristretto.

22g dose for 28g beverage is 1:1.2, which is in the ristretto range.

To be honest, it can be difficult to get a good pull from a triple basket. I tend to view a 20g VST as the biggest one I get consistently good results.

I looked up the roaster's recommended profile and they call for 18-18.5g dose and 34-40g beverage at 200f in the standard 25-30. So they are actually recommending a 1:2 range normale, which is just a bit more volume than a ristretto.

If you want to pull a ristretto with it, I'd dose down to 18g, and perhaps try the standard 17g basket that comes with the Linea Mini. You may find better coffee and extraction at a lower dose as well. I'm currently pulling Ritual Sweet Tooth Rwanda Gihombo single origin, at 17.2g dose, 29g beverage and 37-42 seconds pull (from motor start). It is sweet, thick, fruity with a big fat note of strawberry. At 18g that just didn't come out because the EY% isn't really there.

Maybe try the roaster's recommended profile and work from that point? I think you can get the ristretto you seek by starting there and tailoring it by doing things to improve the extraction yield, such as adjusting the grind for long water contact time, carefully tweaking temperature and adjusting the dose down so that you're really getting the most out of the coffee in the process.