Eliminating spring noise on a commercial lever (Londinium R) - Page 2

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Markant
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#11: Post by Markant »

spressomon wrote:If the noise is coming from the spring rubbing on the ID of the group then its more than an "irrelevant" problem. Eventually metal-on-metal battles are won by the harder of the two. No more than I'd want the cylinder walls of any of my vehicles scored ... I certainly can't fathom anything positive, related to piston seals and their job for sealing, developing in the scenario of the spring rubbing on the ID wall of the group.
Hmmmm. Ok.- If - But imho i don't think that it is that kind of rubbing on the ID of the group. That would sound different, more dull if you will. I hear in the vids the 'clear' 'free-resonating' sound of a spring and it seems to me that it is the spring 'jumping/shifting' at the bottom, so at the piston, or at the top of the group, not the ID of the sleeve.

But if I am wrong in that respect, then still sealing is not an issue: the spring never comes below the inlet holes, so the sleeve where it counts cannot be damaged this way.

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FotonDrv
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#12: Post by FotonDrv »

Kfir wrote:It's absolutely not related to the piston seals, it's only the spring itself causing the noise while being compressed.

You need to try again, move it just a tiny bit and test.

Try to apply some oil at the top where the spring makes contact with the upper part of the group (didn't work for me but it's worth a try).

Good luck.
Kfir.
Kfir, I do not believe I said anything about seals causing the noise, I did however say that I messed with this spring moving trick that you employed WHEN I WAS CHANGING MY SEALS. Why take the Group top off just for a spring rub noise??

I do note the point of pressure when I exert pressure on the root of the spring to move it. I have not tried feeler gauges, yet, but I will the next time I remove the Group.

The QC question that Dan poses is indeed a good statement; why in the world are some leaving the factory doing this and others leaving in perfect harmony??

What was discussed earlier makes sense and is something I have not tried yet and that is the rotational movement of the spring when compressed. Marking the spring and the inside of the Group top in a corresponding point and then removing after 6 months and see if they are in the same place would be an interesting test. I bet I have tried at least a dozen times using the screwdriver method. It sort of makes me want to make a spring centering tool, which would not be all that difficult. Sort of like a Piston Seal Tool on steroids that slid over the piston and spring and reached all the way down into the root of the spring and centered on the ID of the Group top thus forcing the spring into compliance.
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Markant
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#13: Post by Markant »

It sort of makes me want to make a spring centering tool, which would not be all that difficult. Sort of like a Piston Seal Tool on steroids that slid over the piston and spring and reached all the way down into the root of the spring and centered on the ID of the Group top thus forcing the spring into compliance.
That is what i mean by "doing everything" :-) Way to go, Stephen! I am sure you will manage.

mathof
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#14: Post by mathof »

FotonDrv wrote: The QC question that Dan poses is indeed a good statement; why in the world are some leaving the factory doing this and others leaving in perfect harmony??
I venture that some of the springs have a coil or two that is very slightly distorted and that this is what is causing the rubbing. These springs are not not, after all, high tech products. The factory could test them for rubbing as part of quality control and replace springs that rub, but their commercial customers probably don't complain about spring noise.

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Balthazar_B
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#15: Post by Balthazar_B »

mathof wrote:I venture that some of the springs have a coil or two that is very slightly distorted and that this is what is causing the rubbing. These springs are not not, after all, high tech products. The factory could test them for rubbing as part of quality control and replace springs that rub, but their commercial customers probably don't complain about spring noise.
Exactly. The reason the Italian manufacturer doesn't address this is because those group assemblies are (almost entirely) intended for commercial applications. Ever been in an Italian cafe in the morning? I would challenge anyone to hear spring rub on a grouphead, or even to hear yourself think. This is not to say that nothing can be done about it, and I'm guessing the ingenuity of H-B participants will find a universally-applicable solution and proclaim it loudly.

Stephen, in the meantime, I recommend playing your favorite AC/DC song on 11 when you do your morning pull. Problem solved! :P
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FotonDrv
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#16: Post by FotonDrv »

mathof wrote:I venture that some of the springs have a coil or two that is very slightly distorted and that this is what is causing the rubbing. These springs are not not, after all, high tech products. The factory could test them for rubbing as part of quality control and replace springs that rub, but their commercial customers probably don't complain about spring noise.
I think this is spot on!

And yes, an Italian cafe in the morning is indeed a noisy place! My family has had a home on the Italian side of the Adriatic for 600 years and I bet the noise level increased dramatically after WW2 when the industrial age hit Italy, along with espresso machines :-) Don't forget Italian weddings, those are some of the loudest, and most fun, I have ever attended.

The Groups being designed for commercial environments is sort of a given for the past but in a current time frame Levers are way to slow to compete. I suspect the only reason they are still in production is the fact that there is so little to go wrong with a Lever machine that they last forever. Now with the home market catching on to the Lever machines it certainly would benefit the current manufacturers of the Lever espresso machines to do a noise check before they leave the factory and of course raise the price accordingly so all the machines were silent when the got to the shipping dock.

And as to turning up the volume when I am making espresso; I get up at 0400 hrs and start the making shots then as the machine was on at 0300hrs. My wife gets up at 0700hrs..... Our dog does not care they the volume is up, unless it is a barking dog :-)
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FotonDrv
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#17: Post by FotonDrv »

After listening to the noise for almost a year or so and changing seals from OEM to Cafelat to the Larger Londinium seals I have noticed one thing. The spring rubs on the side of the inner cylinder wall and has now left rub marks indicating which side is hitting. That is good for me so the next time I get time I will offset the spring in the group head and see if that eliminates the noise, because it is perfectly clear to me that a centered spring is not working!
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FotonDrv
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#18: Post by FotonDrv »

My Londinium group springs rubs on the inner sleeve onto which the seals ride. I let the noise go for this past 2 years so I could find rub marks and on the last seal change I did spot the marks. I did the best I could do to move the root of the spring away from that side of the sleeve. It helped a bit but did not cure it. But what it did do was let me know I am on the right track.

Now, the big question is. What is not manufactured correctly, the spring root not 90 degrees from the axis of the bore, OR, the base up inside the group head is not machined perpendicular to the axis of the bore thus causing the spring to not compress evenly.

Replacing the spring is the next step in trying to fix this darn thing that should never have left the factory floor, and it truly amazes me that Fracino even has a department that they might label "quality control". I will soon attach a photo of the rub marks on the bore.
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pizzaman383
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#19: Post by pizzaman383 »

I think you might be better off getting a new spring. Can you take a picture of the spring with the lever pulled so we can see how far it moves off the center line?
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3cordcreations
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#20: Post by 3cordcreations »

FotonDrv wrote:After listening to the noise for almost a year or so and changing seals from OEM to Cafelat to the Larger Londinium seals I have noticed one thing. The spring rubs on the side of the inner cylinder wall and has now left rub marks indicating which side is hitting. That is good for me so the next time I get time I will offset the spring in the group head and see if that eliminates the noise, because it is perfectly clear to me that a centered spring is not working!
Is Reiss aware of this thread or have you posted this on his forum? I'm wondering what he would say.. Would he just dismiss it or send a new spring and agree something is not right in the units that are rubbing?
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