There's so much info here on H-B that I didn't think I'd need to post, but here I go after digging around for quite a while.

So, bottom line first: Is there a downside, such as maintenance hassles, to having a capability (such as steaming) that hardly ever gets used?

A little about me. I've been doing espresso since maybe the mid-90s (after some trips to Europe). Started with one of those Krups "steam" boilers, then moved up to a Krups thermoblock with a pump. Got a Gaggia Espresso about 10 years ago. Upgraded to a used Compak K3 grinder a couple months ago, and quickly came to understand the limitations of the Gaggia. Well, OK, I still get enjoyable results but at long last I'm feeling ready for an upgrade.

I'm not in any hurry and I don't have a rigidly defined price range. However, I'm a "best value" shopper. I see plenty of machines below $2000 that I think I'd be happy with, and going over $1500 seems like a stretch. I'd be comfortable buying used.

My present use case is straight espresso for me and Americano for my Wife the majority of the time. I seldom steam milk, but when I do, I'm frustrated by the weakness of the Gaggia in this area. It's OK for cappuccino but struggles with Latte. (I recall better results with my Krups thermoblock.) If we're entertaining, the machine is off and we serve drip, owing to the fact the Gaggia simply isn't up to it. This comes up maybe a couple times a year.

My future use case is uncertain. I prefer straight shots for myself, regardless, but I want to improve my steaming and latte art anyway. I'd like the option of offering espresso drinks to a small party of guests, even if it seldom comes up.

The present use case drives me toward the higher end SBDUs, such as the ECM Classika PID or Quick Mill Alexia Evo. But my nagging doubt about the "party" situation has me considering Hx machines, as well, in a similar price range. So, that brings me back to my question. Apart from the differences in operation, is there any other reason for me not to consider an Hx?

RogerB wrote:Apart from the differences in operation, is there any other reason for me not to consider an Hx?

No. In fact, I suspect that the "wear and tear" on an SBDU machine is probably greater than it is for HX units because the temp & pressure cycle up and down every time you go to or from steam to pulling a shot. And an SBDU takes much longer to steam the same amount of milk, so the element has to work harder to keep the pressure up. Even so, few of them can maintain good steam pressure and volume for more than one or two drinks without needing time to recover. If you use good water and practice "safe extraction" (cleanliness, routine maintenance, optimum parameters etc), you shouldn't have to worry about the HX itself for years, and that's the costly additional piece (over a SBDU) that would need replacement if it develops terminal scale or other serious ailment.

A good HX machine is a more effective tool for making great coffee and properly foaming milk than is a SBDU - for me, there's no comparison. There's no question that the ECM and Quickmill are great machines that will make delicious coffee, but personally I prefer an HX after years of SBDU machines. I wouldn't go back and I feel no need for a DB.

RogerB wrote: ...at long last I'm feeling ready for an upgrade.
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I'm not in any hurry and I don't have a rigidly defined price range. However, I'm a "best value" shopper. I see plenty of machines below $2000 that I think I'd be happy with, and going over $1500 seems like a stretch. I'd be comfortable buying used.
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I'd like the option of offering espresso drinks to a small party of guests, even if it seldom comes up.
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...my nagging doubt about the "party" situation has me considering Hx machines, as well, in a similar price range
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....is there any other reason for me not to consider an Hx?

Like you, I am a value buyer and want the most value for the money. I bought a new HX machine based on the excellent videos produced by Dan Kehn, aka HB, here on HB explaining differences between HX machines versus DB and SB machines.

If you are looking for an excuse not to buy a quality HX machine, DB machines don't need to be flushed in the way HX needs prior to pulling a shot. But, that also means temp hump surfing is not possible to develop a spectrum of temp varying tastes in the cup. The downside to that is you use more water, thus needing to refill the tank more often if water is not plumbed in. The HX machine I chose has the option to plumb water to it and that was another important factor in making the decision to buy it.

From a value standpoint, Dan correctly points out that makers of a good quality DB machine priced the same as a good quality HX machine had to make component and feature choices with a limited budget due to the higher costs of the double boiler.

My view, I got better quality parts/additional features by going with a good quality HX machine for the same price as an equiv priced DB. After getting useful experience with using flush to chose different starting brew temps, I would buy the same HX machine again, given the option. Others' mileage, of course, varies.

The clincher: on Christmas day, I pulled some of the best espresso shots I have tasted in 20 years. Now I know it's possible. Haven't achieved that since but I will again.

Good Luck with whichever machine you decide to buy.

Charlene wrote:Like you, I am a value buyer and want the most value for the money. I bought a new HX machine based on the excellent videos produced by Dan Kehn, aka HB, here on HB explaining differences between HX machines verses DB and SB machines.

If you are looking for an excuse not to buy a quality HX machine, DB machines don't need to be flushed in the way HX needs prior to pulling a shot. But, that also means temp hump surfing is not possible to develop a spectrum of temp varying tastes in the cup.

Dual boilers can have a PID which will ensure consistent temp and allow for much easier temp control for various coffees and blends

Indeed. That is a plus for many buyers.

With the HX I am the PID using flushing as the means of adjustment. Thus, I can make three shots back to back each with a different initial brew temp or make the initial brew temp identical for all three.

Other buyers aren't interested in that level of finesse and want a simpler process.
I think of it as the differences between power boat owners and sailboat owners.

I sail.

Hi RogerB,

I think I can relate to what you've posted, however, my story has a different outcome - I lucked out and found a good Rocket Giotto Evoluzione V2 from a CoffeeGeek/Home Barista member locally.

Like you (and perhaps many others) I started out with a SBDU machine (Rancilio Silvia.) I used the machine day in and day out over a seven year period and performed basic maintenance on the unit. I only did a full overhaul on the machine once at the shop, but otherwise, the machine performed as expected.

I outgrew the Silvia a long time ago, but decided to be content with it, having upgraditis itching on the side every few months. As much as the majority feel that an SBDU machine is sufficient, one should consider the costs of the initial purchase and the cost of ownership over "x" period of time. I personally felt that the Silvia was a pain in the ass to own and to maintain - It was a fussy machine and I truly wished that I had simply purchased an HX to begin with.

Sure, a gasket costs a few bucks, and minor things here and there, but the amount of time invested to maintain and to repair things that go wrong was a real chore, I felt that it was a matter of diminishing returns after you've fully learned how to exploit the machines strengths and weaknesses. I am very happy with the HX and with the budget you have, I am confident you can purchase a very nice machine, even if used. There are a lot of good owners out there who want to move on to their grail machines and their HX machines come up for sale.

Some people suggested I get the LM Linea Mini, others, a GS/3, but that, to me, is excessive and overkill. Don't get me wrong, they are beautiful machines, but the cost-to-shot ratio was too high to be justified. I managed to pick up my Rocket well under $2000 with some nice goodies included by the previous owner too. I am quite happy with my purchase. And also, keep in mind that I am in a different market where used machines are scarce and not as widely available in comparison to the US. I am confident you will find something within your price range.

Good luck in your search!

So do you find yourself making more milk drinks now with the hx vs when you had the sbdu?

Absolutely, yes.

So, with Hx machines, if you're not steaming, you're not cycling fresh water through the boiler, correct? The same is true for a DB.

What's the recommended practice for this situation? Drain and refill periodically? If so, how often?

Charlene wrote:Like you, I am a value buyer and want the most value for the money. I bought a new HX machine based on the excellent videos produced by Dan Kehn, aka HB, here on HB explaining differences between HX machines versus DB and SB machines.

If you are looking for an excuse not to buy a quality HX machine, DB machines don't need to be flushed in the way HX needs prior to pulling a shot. But, that also means temp hump surfing is not possible to develop a spectrum of temp varying tastes in the cup. The downside to that is you use more water, thus needing to refill the tank more often if water is not plumbed in. The HX machine I chose has the option to plumb water to it and that was another important factor in making the decision to buy it.

From a value standpoint, Dan correctly points out that makers of a good quality DB machine priced the same as a good quality HX machine had to make component and feature choices with a limited budget due to the higher costs of the double boiler.

My view, I got better quality parts/additional features by going with a good quality HX machine for the same price as an equiv priced DB. After getting useful experience with using flush to chose different starting brew temps, I would buy the same HX machine again, given the option. Others' mileage, of course, varies.

The clincher: on Christmas day, I pulled some of the best espresso shots I have tasted in 20 years. Now I know it's possible. Haven't achieved that since but I will again.

Good Luck with whichever machine you decide to buy.

Hello, I'm a new member but have read and used this site a lot for helpful info. Since you went with an Andreja did you consider the Salvatore Club "lever"? or have you heard of the company? It's a small business in Ca. that hand builds their machines. Just curious as I don't see many people talk about the Salvatore machines on here.