Ventus Lever in North America - A Warning - Page 7

#61: Post by **SniffCoffee** » October 21st, 2016, 6:51 am

Hello Abe

I have a Ventus in Australia - 240v, but the machine I have was already modded with a PID to replace the pressurestat. The mods were done by Rick Bond, who trades as the Coffee Machinist, google him and get in touch, he might be able to provide some assistance to you.

Regards

James

October 21st, 2016, 10:48 am

AssafL wrote:Here is what I'd do:
1. Trace the wires and create a circuit diagram. So I'll know how to reconnect. I sometimes redesign if I have to (such as adding a relay). It may also be possible that that they wired it wrong (e.g. the pressure sensor is not in series with the heater; our apartment failed a megger upon final inspection - turned out a lamp fixture maker swapped a ground and neutral).
2. Disconnect the heaters and coils. Megger them at 500V. (Rationale - at this point it is a Lemon. I would not take it for granted the heaters are good and insulated. - see above). If they failed the Megger - replace.
3. Rebuild the machine: If the cabling looks good - consider using it. At least the low amperage. Look carefully at the crimps. Now gently grasp the crimp in one hand and the wire in the other and Yank Them Hard. Look again. Did they separate, budge, expose loose strands, etc? replace.
4. Build new thicker wires for the heater.
5. Inlet wire: There is a reason Espresso machines generally do not use an IEC cable. The standard C15 is rated for 10A and UL authorizes it for 15A (see below). C21 and C22 are more appropriate as are the ceramic input connectors used for heaters. I'd buy a fuse holder, a 20A fuse and thick General Cable (Carol Cable) or Belden and a terminal strip (or the big twist terminals) and hook it up directly.

Funny I've taken so long to get here and you have a lot figured out off the top of your head.

I've done or am doing 1,3,4 and 5. I didn't even think about 2. The wires need to be replaced and the C19/20 connectors and fuse holder+20Amp fuse are coming today. I don't know why I didn't think of hooking it up directly. That was just too obvious, I suppose.

The wiring is very simple. The only components are:

o Heating Element
o Pressurestat
o Solenoid
o Indicator lights

I think a reason I'm not giving up (again, I can't make a completely rational argument for this) is because I should be able to understand the basics of how this thing works. What I really don't get is the need for the Gicar controller. Can't these simple functions be done with solid state components?

SniffCoffee wrote:Hello Abe

I have a Ventus in Australia - 240v, but the machine I have was already modded with a PID to replace the pressurestat. The mods were done by Rick Bond, who trades as the Coffee Machinist, google him and get in touch, he might be able to provide some assistance to you.

James,

I'm sending him a message. Thanks for the heads up! I'm not sure about the PID yet. If I can't get away from the controller, I may do it. Does it help you that much? Did he mod anything else for you?

Thanks!

#63: Post by **AssafL** » October 21st, 2016, 12:27 pm

cizinec wrote:The wiring is very simple. The only components are:

o Heating Element
o Pressurestat
o Solenoid
o Indicator lights

I think a reason I'm not giving up (again, I can't make a completely rational argument for this) is because I should be able to understand the basics of how this thing works. What I really don't get is the need for the Gicar controller. Can't these simple functions be done with solid state components?

Usually there are two independent circuits:
1. Autofill: the Gicar controller is for autofill. So it has a sensor (actually a single ended probe) in the tank and when water reaches the sensor it closes a circuit to ground and a relay disconnects the filling solenoid.
2. Heating: the Sirai (or other) Pressure stat connects power to the heater. When it reaches the proper pressure (hence the temp through PV=nRT) the pressure stat opens the circuit and hearing ceases.

They should be separate circuits.

(On a side note that is the simplest Gicar implementation. Other models do more functions)

October 21st, 2016, 1:59 pm

I think I understand. So in the case of the Ventus, based on my observations and what you've stated, the Gicar checks if the solenoid circuit can close (I hear the solenoid click everytime I turn the machine on). If it does, the Gicar either closes the solenoid circuit until the boiler is filled and then opens the solenoid circuit and closes the circuit to the pressurestat (currently a CEME) or, if the boiler is already full, it just closes the circuit to the pressurestat. If the circuit to the solenoid does not close, the circuit to the pressurestat does not close and the light (the green light) connected to the sixth pin blinks and no other circuits close. The Gicar also lowers the voltage for the solenoid and lights.

This is a lever and does not use the fifth pin, which would close a circuit to a pump.

The pressurestat closes the circuit to the boiler. PID!! Why the heck not.

This is making sense now. Thank you!

#65: Post by **SniffCoffee** » October 21st, 2016, 2:10 pm

cizinec wrote:James,

I'm sending him a message. Thanks for the heads up! I'm not sure about the PID yet. If I can't get away from the controller, I may do it. Does it help you that much? Did he mod anything else for you?

Thanks!

My pleasure.

Rick had already modded the Ventus at the request of the vendor I bought it from - the PID was installed as Chris (the vendor) had found the group was overheating a little with the default pressurestat's setting and he'd had to turn it down to keep the grouphead stable. The PID also means you avoid the cycling on and off that you get with a pressure stat.

Rick also changed the steam and hot water arms to La Marzocco arms - so they're a bit longer than the standard arms.

#66: Post by **AssafL** » October 21st, 2016, 3:27 pm

cizinec wrote:I think I understand. So in the case of the Ventus, based on my observations and what you've stated, the Gicar checks if the solenoid circuit can close (I hear the solenoid click everytime I turn the machine on). If it does, the Gicar either closes the solenoid circuit until the boiler is filled and then opens the solenoid circuit and closes the circuit to the pressurestat (currently a CEME) or, if the boiler is already full, it just closes the circuit to the pressurestat. If the circuit to the solenoid does not close, the circuit to the pressurestat does not close and the light (the green light) connected to the sixth pin blinks and no other circuits close. The Gicar also lowers the voltage for the solenoid and lights.

This is a lever and does not use the fifth pin, which would close a circuit to a pump.

The pressurestat closes the circuit to the boiler. PID!! Why the heck not.

This is making sense now. Thank you!

I am not sure that the Gicar is even in the heater circuit. If it is - it may be because it also has an electronic on-off function.

I don't even know if Gicar has on board relays rated to 20A. 20A On off functionality would be better with a real contactor.

October 21st, 2016, 8:26 pm

It has a 16A relay and that is what the pressurestat is connected to. The element is pulling 17A. I'm not sure what that will do to the Gicar. I noticed a SSR PID control on espressoparts. ISTM that may be the best option. I suppose I can just bypass the Gicar for the power to the SSR.

#68: Post by **AssafL** » October 23rd, 2016, 2:53 pm

Sad. Whomever designed the electricity deserves to lose their license.

Is the relay a power on- power off switch?

Indeed bypass the gicar for power to the SSR and use the Gicar output to control the SSR. Use an SSR with a built in snubber.

Oh - just had a thought. Perhaps it is a 16a relay per pole but has two or more poles paralleled? If so a DPDT 16a relay would be 32a if wired in parallel. In that case the Gicar would be amply rated.

http://users.rcn.com/erics/ · #69: Post by **erics** » October 24th, 2016, 12:16 pm

The highest rated relay I have seen in any Gicar or Giemme control box is 16 amps. I believe I recall these as being double pole/single throw (DPST) relays. So, if the heating element only drew ~ 16 amps, these relays would be OK.

1st Line rates the replacement Ventus heating element at 1800 watts for a 110 volt input. By itself, this equates to a little over 16 amps at that voltage. If you are supplying it with 122.6 volts (under load) as you previously stated, then the current is about 25 percent greater.

Another option to think about would be to simply install a lower wattage heating element which would take the current levels down commensurate with your upgraded power connections.

#70: Post by **JohnB.** » October 24th, 2016, 1:01 pm

I'm curious why the OP is seeing a 17A draw from the 1800W element running off an outlet putting out 120v+. Shouldn't the draw be 15A max? My Bosco also uses an 1800W element & runs off a 20A outlet that never goes over 117V with no issues.