Versalab M3 Grinder - Page 6

[barry]

The Zassenhaus burrs on the other hand look perfectly legit -- I suppose motorizing one of these could save someone some money compared to going with that 1K plus commercial conical.

i have seen that setup in some cupping labs... a zass type hand grinder with a pulley on the upper shaft, connected by belt to a small motor mounted on the bench.

[another_jim]

The Zassenhaus burrs on the other hand look perfectly legit -- I suppose motorizing one of these could save someone some money compared to going with that 1K plus commercial conical.

i have seen that setup in some cupping labs... a zass type hand grinder with a pulley on the upper shaft, connected by belt to a small motor mounted on the bench.

Wonder if the Zass mounts and bearings are up to doing this at an espresso grind fineness. Burrs look very nice though. The Trespade burrs are tiny, and judging by the way the coffee oil stained them (the pics are from a grinder that's done maybe 1 pound of coffee), I doubt it's made from a really high grade steel.

[barry]

Wonder if the Zass mounts and bearings are up to doing this at an espresso grind fineness. Burrs look very nice though.

it shouldn't be that big of a deal to rig something up (and it would look surprisingly like the versalab, btw).

[luthier]

Before------------------------------------------------------------After


I hand-polished the lower funnel this afternoon. I don't think it makes any difference tho.

[JonR10]

(Merged from Recommendations for pressure setting on OPV requested by moderator...)

The M3 would be represent a massive investment on my budget but as something that would be used often and, hopefully, last decades it may make sense.

I also appreciate getting to read about the Versalab product, and it clearly contributes to better distribution and puck homogeneity within the basket. It may also produce a more consistent grind, although IIRC there is no evidence or measurement yet about grind particle consistency relative to other grinders (i.e. particle size distribution and deviation).

...but IMO it does not appear to be built well relative to the pricetag...
So you may want to check out Noll Kretchman's "twomartinis Mazzer mod".

He replaced the Mazzer doser with a modified cocktail shaker. He claimed this dramatically improved his distribution in the basket and his pours were remarkably even and well-centered once he made the mod.

After reading all about the Versalab grinder it appears to me that the funnel and grind distribution may be the biggest advantage this product has. If that were true (and I would never pretend to know if it is or not) then one could reap the largest part of the M3 benefit from a $20 modification to a Mazzer (and we all know how well-made Mazzers are).

Here's a link: http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/...so/machines/134026


This picture is an example of Noll's work post-Mazzer mod, the machine is Francis! X5 IIRC.

[Abe Carmeli]

On a tangent, I have appreciated your and Jim's M3 grinder reports and photos. The M3 would be represent a massive investment on my budget but as something that would be used often and, hopefully, last decades it may make sense. Therefore ongoing reports will be highly useful, e.g., the belt slippage issue. Issues related to long term durability are important.

I will keep updating the Versalab Bench review with my ongoing experience. I have replaced the lock knobs with the upgraded one and will post my impressions after I tested it.

Lastly, I must add that the shot photos you posted on that thread are spectacular. I must be going off of the espresso deep end because I'm thinking man that's gorgeous, it would make a great poster!

Welcome to the deep end. The good news is you are going to find here a lot of people you've already met. We serve the best espresso on the planet, and we can intelligently discuss any topic from String Theory to the virtues of Crispy Cream donuts. (Sadly, I will be the one discussing the donuts). After you had spent a weekend on our loony island, you'll never want to leave. (Hey, we ain't gonna let you out anyway).

Your comments about the photos echo espressoobsessed comments on the topic. I believe he said he would hang the image of the flat burr above his fire place, had he had one. You're in good company. Perhaps the following thread - a testament to my fragile sanity, may give you some comfort: The Longest Day

P.S. Dan, thank you for that wonderful explanation of the mechanics of brew pressure adjustment.

[Abe Carmeli]

After reading all about the Versalab grinder it appears to me that the funnel and grind distribution may be the biggest advantage this product has. If that were true (and I would never pretend to know if it is or not) then one could reap the largest part of the M3 benefit from a $20 modification to a Mazzer (and we all know how well-made Mazzers are).

I think you are missing an important element here - the grind quality. We have not done a particle study of it, and I can count only on my taste buds, and Jim's. But the conical/flat combination is responsible for a better grind overall. Jim's extensive report on the topic support that conclusion Link. It is very apparent when dealing with high growth single origin acidic coffees. I just finished a nice batch of beans Jim sent me to put the theory to test. The Mini was able to pull a shot at 96c, but it lacked a lot of the attributes of that acidic bean. The high temp burned them all out. The M3 on the other hand, was able to pull it at 94c and have it much richer and complex because of the lower temp. The Mini at 94c was a punch in the face.

If distribution alone were responsible for the difference, you would not notice any difference in straight cupping. Jim's report is one sided "no contest" between the two in straight cupping. Hence my conclusion that the difference is not just in the distribution but in the grind quality.

[another_jim]

After reading all about the Versalab grinder it appears to me that the funnel and grind distribution may be the biggest advantage this product has. If that were true (and I would never pretend to know if it is or not) then one could reap the largest part of the M3 benefit from a $20 modification to a Mazzer (and we all know how well-made Mazzers are).

I think you are missing an important element here - the grind quality. We have not done a particle study of it, and I can count only on my taste buds, and Jim's. But the conical/flat combination is responsible for a better grind overall. Jim's extensive report on the topic support that conclusion Link. It is very apparent when dealing with high growth single origin acidic coffees. I just finished a nice batch of beans Jim sent me to put the theory to test. The Mini was able to pull a shot at 96c, but it lacked a lot of the attributes of that acidic bean. The high temp burned them all out. The M3 on the other hand, was able to pull it at 94c and have it much richer and complex because of the lower temp. The Mini at 94c was a punch in the face.

If distribution alone were responsible for the difference, you would not notice any difference in straight cupping. Jim report is one sided "no contest" between the two in straight cupping. Hence my conclusion that the difference is not just in the distribution but in the grind quality.

There's a bit more evidence on this. Greg Scace is currently assessing a Mazzer Kony, which has an orthodox doser. He reports improved distribution and pours as well, and believes it may have more to do with the grind itself than the funnel.

The problem is that there's always more than one way to skin a cat. Andy says since he got the M3, he's been getting better pours from the Mini, just because he's become more meticulous to get comparable pours.

[another_jim]

It is very apparent when dealing with high growth single origin acidic coffees. I just finished a nice batch of beans Jim sent me to put the theory to test. The Mini was able to pull a shot at 96c, but it lacked a lot of the attributes of that acidic bean. The high temp burned them all out. The M3 on the other hand, was able to pull it at 94c and have it much richer and complex because of the lower temp. The Mini at 94c was a punch in the face.

i'm really happy that you're able to confirm the result. Since I bought the grinder for improving on bright SOs, I didn't much trust myself on tests in this regard, since the wishful thinking factor is so high.

[AndyS]

The M3's belt drive accomplishes two things: it slows down the grind speed to below 350rpm, and it keeps the grinding chamber isolated from the motor's heat.

You can place small pieces of fruit on the center bolt of the top-mounted pulley and spin them at 300 rpm as you grind. Here's a blackberry doin' the funky dance:

[Abe Carmeli]

I've been working with the new upgraded locking knob for a few weeks now. Just as a reminder, the upgraded part assembly which includes a knob lock, two screws, a break and a washer were designed to address the problem of inconsistent dial stop. As far as I can tell, the new upgraded parts resolve that problem. It took me two tries in adjusting the mechanism to work properly, but it is doing a much better job than the original in my case.

[Teme]

I've been working with the new upgraded locking knob for a few weeks now. Just as a reminder, the upgraded part assembly which includes a knob lock, two screws, a break and a washer were designed to address the problem of inconsistent dial stop. As far as I can tell, the new upgraded parts resolve that problem. It took me two tries in adjusting the mechanism to work properly, but it is doing a much better job than the original in my case.

Good to hear that this weakness has been fixed.

This is just a short note on maintenance. Weekly, remove the drive belt and clean it and the pulleys with alcohol - isopropyl would be best. It is a very simple procedure and takes 3 minutes including cleaning. Yesterday I noticed the effect of foregoing the cleaning. Dust is collected on the pulleys, and the belt starts slipping instead of moving the large pulley, though the engine is running. The grinder will stop grinding and you will hear a squeaking sound. One sweep around the pulleys and the belt cleaned it up for me.

Hmm... I guess a few minutes weekly is not too bad. I assume that the belt is one of the shorter lived components of the grinder and needs to be replaced at certain intervals...

I must say that the M3 looks interesting and the grind quality / distribution characteristics very appealing. Thank you for sharing your experiences! The price (currently at $1250) it a bit less appealing but being a low volume product, it is understandable. I look forwrd to a wrap-up / conclusions on the M3. I do have a couple of things that I am wondering about:

1) Versalab says that the M3 is suitable also for smaller filter baskets. I am thinking lever here and e.g. a 49mm basket from an Olympia Cremina or Elektra Microcasa a Leva would fit snugly within the plastic "O" ring on the bottom funnel (the inner diameter is 50mm and with the 49 mm basket in the portafilter handle, there should be a tight seal) while the 58mm commercial portafilters are a snug fit to the outside of the said "O" ring. Any views on this?
2) Moving from one grind setting to another - how difficult is this? Let's say I had an M3 and used the grinder for two machines. One would be a lever for which I grind slightly finer than for the E61 HX vibe pump machine. With the grind adjustment scale and the upgraded locking knob moving between these two settings should be repeatable, right? But I assume that potentially it would require quite a few turns on the adjustment knob due to the extended adjustment range of the M3?

Br,
Teme

[luthier]

1) Versalab says that the M3 is suitable also for smaller filter baskets. I am thinking lever here and e.g. a 49mm basket from an Olympia Cremina or Elektra Microcasa a Leva would fit snugly within the plastic "O" ring on the bottom funnel (the inner diameter is 50mm and with the 49 mm basket in the portafilter handle, there should be a tight seal) while the 58mm commercial portafilters are a snug fit to the outside of the said "O" ring. Any views on this?

My millennium europiccola has 51~51.5mm baskets and it's probably the smallest suitable basket size for the M3 grinder.

2) Moving from one grind setting to another - how difficult is this? Let's say I had an M3 and used the grinder for two machines. One would be a lever for which I grind slightly finer than for the E61 HX vibe pump machine. With the grind adjustment scale and the upgraded locking knob moving between these two settings should be repeatable, right? But I assume that potentially it would require quite a few turns on the adjustment knob due to the extended adjustment range of the M3?

I adjust the grind all the time. I think it's quite repeatable even before upgrading the lock knob. As for the upgrading kit, I had to file the underside of the break a little more to make it work properly.

[Abe Carmeli]

1) Versalab says that the M3 is suitable also for smaller filter baskets. I am thinking lever here and e.g. a 49mm basket from an Olympia Cremina or Elektra Microcasa a Leva would fit snugly within the plastic "O" ring on the bottom funnel (the inner diameter is 50mm and with the 49 mm basket in the portafilter handle, there should be a tight seal) while the 58mm commercial portafilters are a snug fit to the outside of the said "O" ring. Any views on this?

I think it will fit. I used it with a ~ 51 mm basket for my La Pavoni and it works. Luthier is right to voice some caution, since a 49 mm basket is slightly smaller. But I think you should be OK since the basket rim is wider than 49 mm. At most, you may have a little more ground coffee at the rim than a 58mm would. To be absolutely sure, if you feel like shipping one to me I'll test it for you.

2) Moving from one grind setting to another - how difficult is this? Let's say I had an M3 and used the grinder for two machines. One would be a lever for which I grind slightly finer than for the E61 HX vibe pump machine. With the grind adjustment scale and the upgraded locking knob moving between these two settings should be repeatable, right? But I assume that potentially it would require quite a few turns on the adjustment knob due to the extended adjustment range of the M3?

You should not have a dial stop consistency problem with the new knob. As to the dial difference between a 58 mm vibe and a 49 mm lever, it is not a few turns of the dial, but just a few stops difference. Jim should be able to answer it more accurately. Jim, what's your La Peppina basket size?

[another_jim]

The 49 baskets are iffy. The go up against the brass on the inside of the plastic collar and can get hit by the moving scraper. This can be cured by clipping off a small amount at the bottom of the scraper (John Bicht's idea). The remaining difficulty is that there's a far greater tendency for the grounds to spill out from the sides when you take the basket off. So using the tiny basket is a little too delicate for my klutzy ways. I ended up using an old solis 53mm basket, putting the Peppi basket over it (upside down) and flipping. This is fast and no mess.

[Abe Carmeli]

Adjusting Burr Speed on the Versalab M3 Grinder

Here is an interesting variable I've never been able to play with: Adjusting burr speed. I believe the M3 has a stock burr speed of 500 rpm. However this can be adjusted downward (to a slower speed) by adjusting a little screw on a circuit board inside the grinder. To access it, you need to disassemble the grinder's back panel (4 screws). Inside, you will find a blue chip on the circuit board. That blue thingy has a small brass screw on top of it. Turning the screw counterclockwise, reduces burr speed. I turned it 2 turns and noticed a visible change in burr speed. It is hard to tell what the speed is, but it is definitely slower. John Bicht believes that slower speed has a positive influence on the cup and is detectable. My guesstimate is that I reduced it to around 350-400 RPM with those two turns. I will spend a couple of weeks on it and see if indeed there is a detectable difference.


The little brass screw on top of the blue thingy on the bottom circuit board adjusts burr speed.

[mathias]

First of all, many thanks for the information given in this thread.

Any chance of photos of the motor? According to Versalab's homepage the grinder requires 1A, 120V. Does that mean it draws less than 120W?

What is the rpm of the motor? If not specified could someone measure the two wheel diameters?

From the photos in the thread I see no other means of transfer the energy from the burr axis to the burrs than friction. Is that correct? Then how hard does the screw at the end of the burr axis need to be tightened?

Regarding the wiper that needs to be repositioned after each dismantle. Wouldn't it be possible to redesign it a little and have a separate made threaded hole off center (on the conical surface of the burr carrier) for it? Then it could stay together with the lower burr carrier when dismantling the burr set.

[Teme]

Abe and Jim,

I applaud the great job you have done in testing the Versalab grinder. As for some background on my interest towards this grinder, I have received a "threat" from those close to me that they will actually buy me a new grinder for a Christmas present (or at least take part in the cost) as long as they know what I want. So, I will be upgrading from my current Mazzer Mini to either a MiniE or the Versalab...

Upon reading this thread I am convinced of the superiority of the Versalab in many areas but I'm not too sure about its suitability / practicality in terms of everyday use. My specific questions relate to these items in particular:

- pulley / belt slippage and squeaking issue - how bad is this? can one live with it?
- lack of hopper - is the grind result sensitive to how one pours the beans in?
- popcorning - there is no hopper so can one assume some popcorning will occur or are all the beans really "sucked" into the grinder as indicated in the thread
- messiness / cleanliness? is there a lot to clean up after use vs e.g. a Mini
- multiple consecutive shots - how does it fare against a Mazzer in terms of the procedure and time consumed?

I would naturally also be very interested in hearing any pros or cons that are not apparent from the thread as of yet - can there be any after such an exhaustive report?

Br,
Teme

[papalatte]

I second the motion.......

[Abe Carmeli]

pulley / belt slippage and squeaking issue - how bad is this? can one live with it?

I recommend a weekly cleaning routine of the pulley & belt. It takes three minutes. If you do it, there shouldn't be any slippage in normal use. However, you cannot overload that grinder with beans or you are likely to choke it. That was my initial problem. I loaded it to the top with beans and then ran it. The proper way is to turn it on and feed it with beans. I do it in two servings for 18 grams of coffee.

- lack of hopper - is the grind result sensitive to how one pours the beans in?

Yes, see above.

- popcorning - there is no hopper so can one assume some popcorning will occur or are all the beans really "sucked" into the grinder as indicated in the thread

I do not think that popcorn is an issue with the grinder, though I have no way to confirm it other than tasting it in the cup.

- messiness / cleanliness? is there a lot to clean up after use vs e.g. a Mini

I use the Mini grinder tray for the M3 grinder (I cut the two clips that attach it to the Mini). It works well to prevent a messy surface. There is less to clean up because you are not dealing with sweeping a doser clean after a grind session. It takes me about 15 seconds to cleanup after a grind.

- multiple consecutive shots - how does it fare against a Mazzer in terms of the procedure and time consumed?

Here the Mazzer is faster and more convenient. It takes ~ 20 seconds to grind for a shot. The Mazzer will grind enough coffee for 2 shots at that time frame, and you don't need to attend to it as it grinds.

I would naturally also be very interested in hearing any pros or cons that are not apparent from the thread as of yet - can there be any after such an exhaustive report?

Let me try to sum it up in a nutshell:

Pros

1) Near perfect distribution
2) No clumps
3) Better grind quality, resulting in overall better quality in the cup, particularly with high growth acidic coffees.
4) Minimal amount of stale coffee caught in the grinder burrs & housing
5) Practically no coffee is caught in the funnel
6) Esthetically outstanding & unique

Cons

1) No dial scale, though one can fabricate a half ass scale, with hilarious consequences. I'm working on putting together a laser etched scale. (with help from Sean Lennon & Lino). If we are successful, I hope to make it available to all who request it.
2) Takes longer to grind
3) May be too slow & inconvenient when entertaining a party
4) Requires the Barista to attend to the grinder as it grinds
5) Prone to stall if it is not fed properly
6) Requires slightly more time to maintain the grinder - weekly pulley cleanup