Similar problems with my new Rancilio Silvia

[gardoni]

Hello all,

I just finished reading this very interesting thread started by Daniel N.: Problems with my new Rancilio Silvia. First off, I would like say that it is an amazing thing that Daniel N. got his Silvia in good shape right for the holidays. Reading this thread has made me reconsider a lot of things regarding my use of my Silvia in the last month. I have always used pre-packaged beans because it is really hard to find freshly roasted coffee in Mexico City, but just yesterday a friend of mine brought back some Black Cat Intelligentsia beans for me. So I started this morning and after two and a half hours of varying my grind, my tamp and my temp surf. technique I finally gave up. I went through half a pound of Black Cat and got nothing but Sink Shots. I will attempt to describe the best shot:

at 12 on the Rocky Grinder, (might be closer to 11), using a naked portafilter and about 18 grams of coffee this is what happened:

I preheated Silvia for about 45 minutes as I always do.
I then let out some water to activate the pump, as soon as the boiler light went on I sopped letting the water run and waited until it went off. According to what Dan wrote on Reverse Temperature Surfing- Thanks again Dan!- I waited for two minutes once the light went off and then pulled the shot. I got a very slow flow of coffee on the Naked PF( about 38 seconds) and as soon as it blonded I stopped the shot. I didn't take a picture but the shot was bubbly and the crema dissipated rather quickly. So I tried again and again.

I bought my Silvia around 2002 so I am guessing that the Thermostat is one of the older ones on which Dan did his testing, not one of the new ones which requires less Temp Surfing. So what do you guys think? Is my temperature surfing way off? or is it a Grind/Tamp/Dose problem? I am really at a loss here, and would appreciate anyone's help.

The roast date on the Black Cat is Jan the 8th 2007.

Thank You,
Gardoni

[DigMe]

I'm not a Silvia owner but I'm wondering if it could have something to do with elevation?

bc

[edwa]

Gardoni,

Pretty good timing on the roast delivery. Here in Los Angeles I just got my Kid O today also roasted on the 8th. Although you could say there might be some residual degassing, tomorrow should start the prime time! Before I boxed up my Silvia and put her in the attic I had tried both the Black Cat and Kid O in her and I have to say the machine pulled its best shots ever. My Silvia was manufactured in 2002.

I'm not familiar with your grinder but from the description you gave and the 38 second count I would recommend that you not grind so fine. This next thought goes counter to conventional wisdom. Although I use the WDT on my Bric, I had better results on the Silvia with a naked PF if I didn't. I did however do a Portafilter Bounce with a Stockfleth and then a 30 lb tamp. My shots also improved when I switched from a flat tamper to a convex tamper. Your mileage may vary, but still it sounds more like a matter of grind and PF build when addressing the 38 second count. How did your shot taste? Once you get a good pull then the taste will hopefully help you fine tune your temp surfing.

Another consideration, I have to grind coarser in the morning down here closer to the ocean (not at- unfortunately), than I do in the afternoon or evening. Take into consideration your humidity, especially since you're getting closer to the equater. If I remember Mexico City is pretty high up in elevation, you might want to do a search for input from folks making espresso in other high altitudes.

One problem I had with my Silvia is she ran hot. I can not begin to tell you how many different timings I charted. The caveat being I was using a K type thermocouple snaked up through the PF spout and reading it in Celsius on my cheap Tech TM-125 Multimeter (without a sponge for resistance). It did consistently read boiling water at 99 C. Nevertheless she was still able to pull some tasty shots. In fact I remember the 1st succesful Black Cat shot after dialing in the grinder. It was one of those fly catching, open-jawed, "Oh my god!" exclamations. I'd never seen Miss Silvia look so sexy before.

[gardoni]

Edwa and Digme,

Thank you so much for your replies. I will now consider the altitude factor. I had thought about it but it had not been an issue with Pre-packaged beans (i.e. Lavazza and Danesi) However, it might be with freshly roasted coffees such as Black Cat. I wonder if I need to buy a Thermostat portafilter in order to get a good shot with Silvia??? Anyway. I really appreciate your advice.

Sincerely,
Gardoni

[edwa]

I was hoping you would focus on you grind, dose, and distribute. Could it be that the prepackaged coffees that you used were dryer from age and need a heavier tamp than the fresher moister Black Cat? Consequently, your muscle memory is used to doing the heavier tamp and the fresher grounds suffer for it.

Check out Cannonfodder's new thread on Dialing in a new machine.

[coffeeboy]

I have to say the best thing I have done with Miss Silvia was a PID. Takes the whole surfing/guessing temp out of the equation and the shots improved right off the bat Bottomless Pf, fresh beans (of course), good grinder = huge Hersey Candy Kiss looking shots
I went with the SD3C kit.. install was super straight forward and well worth the coin.

http://www.pidkits.com/kits.html

[gardoni]

edwa,

I did. the thing is I was taking some photos of the whole process. I will post them soon. Also, thanks for the 411 on Canonfodder's thread.

Sincerely,
Gardoni

[gardoni]

CoffeeBoy,

I have been seriously thinking about a PID. Thanks so much for the link.
So i finally took some photos of the extraction process using Black Cat Espresso that was roasted on the 8th of this month. I still have not been able to get a decent shot. I hope that after seeing the photos you will be able to help me find some definitive answers to my problems. Thank you all.

Sincerely,
Gardoni


Here they are:


Rocky Grinder on a 13 Setting.

hard tamp about 30lbs.

Here's the temp surf technique, let water through boiler and start counting 2 minutes after light goes out.

The extraction took about 28 seconds before blonding:







Here's what the shot looked like. Pretty bubbly...


Here's how the crema dissipated after about 45 seconds


And finally here's the puck:

[luca]

Hi Gardoni,

Crema fading that quickly is often a sign that your coffee is too fresh. A good test is to pull a shot into a 30mL shotglass and just let it sit for a few minutes. The crema on coffee that is too fresh will fade away and you will have a significant reduction in volume.

Cheers,

Luca

[edwa]

As if in support of what Luca wrote, I was just saying to my wife this morning how today (Sat) the Espresso Torro was producing the best shots so far. It was roasted on Sunday.

Otherwise, you might try experimenting with just a bit smaller of a dose. The photos looked good what's the time lapse from the 1st to 2nd photo? Did the 3 streams converge right away or stay separate. Any chance you have a movie mode on that digital camera and can upload it to google video?

Still, most importantly, how did it taste?

[coffeeboy]

Shot looks very nice .. I just received a couple bags Friday that were roasted on the 9th.. the "La Forza" (Counter Culture) is doing something similar.. (lots of creme.. just doesn't hold) should be coming around shortly .. tastes wonderful.
First time I have tried the "La Forza" I have always sipped the "Toscano", which I have to say is still my favorite, but as always taste is up to the person with the cup in his/her hand.

Could try the below surfing variation. So nice with the PID not having to mess with the stop watch anymore + you can monitor temp for steaming as well.

http://www.coffeekid.com/archived/rancilio/cheatsilvia


As a side note and off topic...
If anyone loves a good press cup of coffee, I have to recommend the (El Puente - Marysabel Caballero) (link below) I was blown away by the fragrance.

http://www.counterculturecoffee.c...irtuemart&Itemid=1

[erics]

Good Morning Gardoni -

Firstly, I would like to simply say that your first post is very well written and you have given anyone a great deal of info as regards diagnosing your shot "problems".

Secondly, you are using a coffee (Black Cat) that lots of us are familar with. I BELIEVE your primary problem is one of too high a temp caused by your passing of the water through the boiler and GROUPHEAD in order to start the surfing process. I concur with Edwa in that it looks like you're dosing a little high but the key would be to try ONE FIX at a time and see how the taste improves (or not).

I also second the recommendation made by Coffeeboy to get a PID kit from this source: http://www.pidkits.com/

While I do agree with the INTENT of the "cheatingmiss silvia" article, it is FAR BETTER to stick with your current practice and even easier if the machine is on a timer as the 45 minute warm-up is perfect. At the very beginning of this warm-up period, flick the brew switch on for a few seconds and make sure the grouphead and shower screen area are clean. If you don't have one yet, the Pallo brush is a perfect example of something that works exactly as it was designed:

http://www.espressoparts.com/product/6012JG_T

These few seconds of operation, at the beginning of the warm-up, flushes the group and ensures that the boiler level is correct. Now let the girl fully warm-up as you have been doing. Keep the PF and basket locked in. Now just let the heating element turn on and off naturally for 40-45 minutes and when you see it go off, start your "timer" and also start preparing your shot. At the two minute mark (for the sake of consistency), hit the brew button.

Edit - make sure your espresso cups are "hot" - fill with just off boiling water at the beginning of the two minute countdown and empty them dry just before the shot.

Just a thought,

Eric S.

[jrtatl]

One other thing to consider when the crema falls really fast: make sure you rinse your cups thoroughly before use. Detergent residue makes crema dissipate. Detergent residue is ridiculously difficult to completely remove.

So, just for gits and shiggles, try rinsing your demitasse 10 or 12 times before use. Just when you think there can't possibly be any detergent residue left, rinse a couple of more times.

See if that helps. At least you will eliminate one more variable.

Just this man's $0.02. YMMV.

[mrgnomer]

Could be the extraction too. That's one crazy cone. I didn't have a naked portafilter when I had a Silvia so I don't know what kind of cone I got with her but with the Vetrano I have now I rarely get a cone like that. My cones are small and centered and I find with a pull leaning towards ristretto the crema has more longevity and is almost elastic even if the over all volume is a bit short.

I'm still learning so I don't know for sure but I also tend towards low or underdosing so that could be the reason for short tight cones. The big cone and short crema might be tied to the dose level.

[gardoni]

Hello all,

Thank you for all of your observations and advice. Today Chino and I took some video. I hope that some of the questions regarding these poor extractions(including today's) are better addressed in this video. I will post it as soon as possible. Thanks so much.

Sincerely,
Gardoni

[edwa]

Sorry if I sound like the village idiot hanging from the church bell tower ... but... How does it taste?

sanctuary, sanctuary, ...

I've only gone thru a couple of pounds of Black Cat and then switched to the Kid O. I'm not a big fan of dark chocolate, it tends to upset my stomach and the Black cat with its big full dark chocolate taste did the same after a week of drinking 3-4 doubles/capps a day. Don't get me wrong, I think its an exquisite blend but up here in the bell tower we go for the Kid O!

[erics]

OK - second village idiot checking in here:

Your first post talked about a 38 second extraction - was that a typo? - because your post with the pictures had a 28 second extraction. If the first post was NOT a typo, then most definitely that is a high temperature extraction and one that even Black Cat would have a rough time handling. With a stock Silvia setup and the two-minute cooldown you are performing, the heating element will come on pretty quickly (<2 seconds) after you hit the brew switch and stay on for the duration of the shot. Maybe somebody who has a stock Silvia setup could confirm what I remember to be the case.

The initial Silvia's were fitted with a 110C brew thermostat but that was changed (I BELIEVE) in mid-2001. Mine is a Dec 1999 production and, most definitely, HAD the 110C thermostat which I changed to the 100 C thermostat which I changed to a PID setup. Certainly you COULD have the higher temp thermostat because of stocking situations at various dealers but I kinda doubt it. The thermostats are marked on the underside as to their nominal temp setpoint.

Skol,

Eric

[gardoni]

Erics,

The first post was not a typo. I did get a 38 second extraction which I attribute to overdosing and too fine a grind setting on the Rocky. The 28 second extraction shown with the photos was done after I adjusted the grind to a 13 instead of a 12 on my grinder. It was still pretty slow and the cone didn't begin to form until after about 15 seconds. As I mentioned before my friend Chino and I shot some video of an extraction so that the pour could be more accurately observed and judged. I will post it as soon as I can. (we had some trouble with the compression in the cutting room!)

I bought my Silvia circa 2002 so I don't know if the Thermostat is one of the "new" ones, but I will most definitely install a PID in order to get more accurate extractions.

Thanks,
Gardoni

[gardoni]

Hello All!

Ok. So Here it is. chino and I made the video of an extraction using Black Cat Espresso. A few notes on this video:

The Black Cat beans were roasted on the 8th of January and this video was shot on the 14th.
As you will no doubt notice, the extraction was a very fast one. However, we have had some longer extractions under similar conditions. The purpose of this video was to be able to portray a pour in real time so as to better diagnose the causes of the bubbly shots and their dissipating crema.

I have included two stills of the actual shot because of the poor video quality. Hopefully this video will help you help us!

Thank You!

Sincerely,
Gardoni and Chino

[cannonfodder]

That shot looks a LOT like iflawdya problem on Help! My shots are bubbly