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Versalab M3 Grinder - Page 5

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Link to "Versalab M3 Grinder"by Abe Carmeli on Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:52 am

nalesch wrote:Abe,

Thinking out loud for a minute, to avoid messing up the grinder, you could punch the numbers on a strip of brass sheet and then wrap it around the barrel as Jim did with his paper scale.
Norm


You took the words out of my fingers, I was just about to post that idea :). Yeah, that should be a no brainer.
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Link to "Versalab M3 Grinder"by HB on Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:02 am

The idea of approaching this grinder with a hammer and punch seems rash. After shelling out over a grand for the grinder (that should have had markings in the first place), involving a good machinist wouldn't be extravagant. Below is a photo from Lino's article "The Mind and Machines of Verna Design":

Image
The La Spaziale S1 portafilter and its jig on the rotary table.

Placing the grinder barrel on a rotary table and drilling regular markings would be easy. Alternating the "dot size" (i.e., major detent markings of small, medium, medium-large, large, small, medium, medium-large... with teenie minor detents in between) would be consistent with the minimalist look of the grinder.
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Link to "Versalab M3 Grinder"by Abe Carmeli on Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am

HB wrote:The idea of approaching this grinder with a hammer and punch seems rash. After shelling out over a grand for the grinder (that should have had markings in the first place), involving a good machinist wouldn't be extravagant. Below is a photo from Lino's article "The Mind and Machines of Verna Design"


Lino,

What do you think? Would you like to give it a try :D
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Link to "Versalab M3 Grinder"by lino on Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:16 pm

Oh boy....

I knew I'd be in trouble as soon as Dan said it'd be easy.... :shock:


Abe, if you're interested, we can discuss options and possibilities... Shoot me an email.

ciao

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Link to "Versalab M3 Grinder"by another_jim on Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:08 pm

Abe Carmeli wrote:Nice shot Jim. Did you invert the image using "Negative" for the X-Ray images?


No a combo of filters - equalize, contrast, find lines, threshold (black & white only by luminance level) false coloring by luminance level, then all overlaid. There's a ton of cheap pattern enhancement, pattern recognition, and other photo faking filters out there from eastern European ex-spook sources.

Seems Lenin got it the wrong way around, they're selling us the rope to hang ourselves :wink:
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Link to "Versalab M3 Grinder"by Abe Carmeli on Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:36 pm

I have just finished a three hour interview with John Bicht, the Designer of all things Versalab. It was very interesting and as soon as I can get my act together, I will post excerpts from it on a separate thread.

Updated: See Interview with Versalab Inventor John Bicht
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Link to "Versalab M3 Grinder"by another_jim on Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:59 am

A quick method note:

Grinding is faster, there's no bean hurling, and stray grinds from the burrs fall to the base if you do thing things in the following order:

1. start the grinder (a 1/2 gram of old grinds may fall out)
2. mount the pf or basket
3. feed in the beans

The running grinder sucks the beans down below the brass disk on the axle almost instantly, so the beans don't get the chance to fly back out.
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Link to "Versalab M3 Grinder"by Abe Carmeli on Sun Aug 14, 2005 10:25 pm

This is just a short note on maintenance. Weekly, remove the drive belt and clean it and the pulleys with alcohol - isopropyl would be best. It is a very simple procedure and takes 3 minutes including cleaning. Yesterday I noticed the effect of foregoing the cleaning. Dust is collected on the pulleys, and the belt starts slipping instead of moving the large pulley, though the engine is running. The grinder will stop grinding and you will hear a squeaking sound. One sweep around the pulleys and the belt cleaned it up for me.
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Link to "Versalab M3 Grinder"by another_jim on Mon Aug 15, 2005 12:00 pm

A note on my taste testing. Bottom line, the final results will be delayed by two weeks. Here's the skinny:

The interim results are based on blind cuppings of some very good coffees; so these results hold up in my mind. But the shot tests have problems. They were based on non-blind naked PF extractions of a bunch of so-so coffees I had lying around from some tastings. The non-blind part could bias the results, the so-so part means there was a really low upper limit on how good the results could be.

I tried doing blind tests on my current houseblend. This also isn't working out. The sweetspot for the Mini is a 96C ristretto, for the M3, a 94C regular pull. These two "best practice" shots are different but I can't really prefer one to the other. The blend is from three coffees selected out of dozens I've tasted to work specifically with the mini and tea. In other words, the thing is designed to produce a great shot with that setup. So what conclusion can you draw from the M3 shots being different but not clearly better? Basically, the only conclusion is that the M3 is a good grinder and that I know my stuff. That's not news

So here's the new tack. I've ordered three of the best SO coffees I've cupped this year. The Harar makes a great shot; the Lintong makes an iffy shot, with some distortion from the cup taste; and the Yrg makes a very poor shot, with the greatness from the cup distorted beyond recognition. I'm going to compare the grinders in the cup, in Tea shots, and La Peppina shots.

This is a test with no upper limit. If the M3 is capable of undreamt of greatness, i.e. grinding godshots from the Yrg, it will show up. If it gets a lot closer to this than any conventional grinder, that too will show up.

The testing won't be blind, it won't be statistically significant, but it will answer the question we're really asking: Will this thing produce an espresso undreamt of till now?
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Link to "Versalab M3 Grinder"by Abe Carmeli on Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:04 pm

Day 6

After spending a week with the grinder, sometimes into the wee hours of the morning, it was time to talk to the person who invented that little bunny. I called up John Bicht of Versalab, and we had a 3 hour chat on anything from race cars to product design to the M3 series. Since the scope of the interview was larger than the grinder I published it in its entirety in Knockbox.
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Cimbali/ DRM Pics

Link to "Versalab M3 Grinder"by Jepy on Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:17 pm

For those who haven't seen what's inside the DRM grinder, I posted some pics. I was surprised to see how much metal the frame has connected from the motor to the burrs. It seems the belt design must have been for speed, and not so much for heat. As opposed to the Versalab, this belt is toothed. The grinds appear very fluffy, and no dusting.

Try this link:
http://homepage.mac.com/jepy/PhotoAlbum57.html
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Link to "Versalab M3 Grinder"by Abe Carmeli on Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:24 pm

The latest on the dial stop consistency problem: Versalab believes they have resolved it. They are replacing the lock knob with an upgraded one. According to John's measurement, it will deliver dial stop consistency within less than a micron. That should be more than enough for a very precise dial. I should be getting it early next week and will report my results.
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Link to "Versalab M3 Grinder"by Abe Carmeli on Sun Aug 21, 2005 8:44 pm

Day 7

I've talked about the grinder's even distribution, and today I took some photos to illustrate how it all comes together when pulling a shot.

Image
I promise, no more naked shots

The above image was taken 20 seconds into the shot using a ridgeless double basket and 14.5 grams coffee. This is just about as perfect as a shot can get. The jet is perfectly centered, note how dark the extraction is so close to the end of the shot, how evenly the stripping is, not a hint of channeling, and best of all - this is not your standard triple basket 21 grams naked shot. it is only 14.5 grams of coffee in a double basket. That one was yummy.

Image
In the cup - They just don't get much prettier than this one

Image
My afternoon shot - like molten chocolate

All shots were pulled on the Brewtus.
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Link to "Versalab M3 Grinder"by default on Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:11 pm

wow! it looks very reddish. what coffee is that?

the white cup is beautiful, what brand is that?

i'm not sure whether someone has asked about popcorn effect on this grinder, any comment please?
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Link to "Versalab M3 Grinder"by Abe Carmeli on Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:21 pm

default wrote:wow! it looks very reddish. what coffee is that?


It is my home roasted blend: 40 % Daterra Reserve, 30 % Sulawesi 30 % Harrar. Roasted to Full City, after 3 days of rest.

the white cup is beautiful, what brand is that?


It is Danesi. It is shaped like a ball with the top cut off

I'm not sure whether someone has asked about popcorn effect on this grinder, any comment please?


The only way I can verify the existence of the popcorn affect is in the cup and sometimes in the extraction. I haven't detected it with the M3 grinder, but it still could be there.
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Grinder 101

Link to "Versalab M3 Grinder"by another_jim on Tue Aug 30, 2005 7:56 pm

The M3 has arrived at its new temporary home, a person whose tasting and grinder tweaking acumen I trust far more than my own. With luck, we'll get a more authoritative tasting report than I can provide.

I completed my taste tests using SOs. Although my subjective impression was that the M3 stood out more in this area than with regular espresso blends, my scores were completely in-line with those posted on my taste report.

And that brings me to the subject of the post.

I took the grinder apart prior to shipping it. I wanted to check how much grinds it retained, and what their condition was. The inspection confirmed Versalab's claims about grounds retention -- I swept the lot into a container, and it was less than what stays behind in my doser after I sweep it out, maybe 3 to 4 beans worth of ground coffee. It was hard to tell from their condition how cool the grinder is running. However, the grounds seemed brown and dry, rather than the black, oily double shot's worth of compressed grinds I find when cleaning the Mini's chamber.

As I was doing this, I chanced to look at the way the conical burrs were spaced. First I looked at the upper burrs with the lower ones removed:

Image

Hmm, I thought, the outer conical burr is really far back. So I mounted the lower (inner) conical burr, and could still see a lot of daylight.

Image

If you look at the left side, you'll see the amount of clearance. In fact, you can toss through the coffee beans ...

Image

... and they emerge completely unscathed. A little testing confirmed it, the conical burrs are too widely spaced to affect the beans if the flat burr is not in place.

On the other hand, trying to grind coffee without the inner conical mounted turns into a failure too, the beans simply won't enter the flat burr set, which is too narrowly spaced to admit a whole bean. I tried to examined the beans mid-grind (with the grinder properly assembled) trying to disassemble it so the beans being ground remained in position. I made a mess of it and wasn't able to get good photos. It does appear that the conical burrs augur the beans down against the flat burr entrance, where they get crushed against one another, and the metal walls, into pebble size.

Schomer has written a lot about conical grinding and its wonders, especially in connection with this burr-set. Most of this appears to be complete nonsense. Basically, grinders force the beans into a more and more constricted space, so they break into finer and finer particles. The burrs don't do much cutting, they are merely paddles that criss-cross like scissors, pushing the bean fragments into the tighter space.

Here's a schematic cross-section for flat burrs:

Image

The typical burr grinder has three angles where the bean breaking, coarse and fine grinding respectively occur. As the burrs are put together, these angles create a progressively constricted space the beans are forced into. At the outer diameter, the grindstones are perfectly parallel for the final grind to a powder.

Now, armed with this mental schema, lets look at the DRM/M3 burrs and the Mini Mazzer burrs (standing in for all flat burr configurations):

Image


Looking at the Mini burrs, you can see the three zones very clearly, in the breaking zone (marked by green shading) the burrs are widely spaced. as one transitions to the coarse grind zone (blue shading), the burrs become tightly spaced, creating a narrow channel for the grinds, the final fine grind stage (red shading) is a very narrow outer perimeter.

Now over to the DRM flat burr. The fine grind area is equally narrow. But there's no bean breaking area, and the coarse grind area is huge in comparison to the mini's. So where's the green bean breaking area? That's where the conical burrs come in. They force the beans into the flat burrs, breaking them as they enter.

In other words, the only thing the conical burrs do on this grinder is allow the flat burr to have a much enlarged coarse grinding area. Whether and how this contributes to an improved grind is anyone's guess.

A final thing caught my eye that may be relevant to the discussion of particle distribution in espresso grinds. On the DRM grinder, the burrs are not cut all the way to the perimeter; instead there are little channels that allow some coarse particles to escape. On the Mini, the burr channels are cut all the way through, also giving an escape path for some coarse particles (see enlarged sections). I'm wondering if grinder manufacturers can "tune" their grindstones by varying the size of these escape channels, in order to affect particle distribution?
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Link to "Versalab M3 Grinder"by lennoncs on Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:53 pm

very interesting post...you have my undivided attention.

nice work!


cheers
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Link to "Versalab M3 Grinder"by another_jim on Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:24 am

lennoncs wrote:very interesting post...you have my undivided attention.


In that case ... I wasn't planning on continuing the grinder 101, but here's a look at a pure conical bur grinder. This is the Trespade burr set from the Lux, Pavoni, Innova home grinders and the lowest end commercial model from Iberital. The burrs are quite tiny, but the configuration of the grinder is commercial, albeit cheap. BTW, at around $150 to $200, these grinders are the true entry level for serious espresso grinding -- loud, messy, slow, but grind quality equal to the mini's.

Here's the grind chamber from the Pavoni PGC, my travel grinder, with the static outer burr removed.

Image

As you see the layout is conventional, including the mass of grinds not spat out by the paddles.

Here is the outer burr assembly:

Image


The mount is hard plastic instead of brass, and the mounting threads aren't tight, but the burr is well attached by two screws. The assembly is driven by a worm gear driving the teeth shown on the outside. Despite the poor threads, this gives very good grind adjustability.

Now to the business side. the burrs are slightly out of focus, but (starting from the bottom of the picture) the bean breaking, coarse grinding and fine grinding areas are apparent. Note that the outer burr is roughly tube shaped, whereas the inner burr is conical, so one has the same constricting space as with the flat burr.

The grinding areas on the inner burr are a lot clearer:

Image


Again note the changing surface angles as one moves from the bean breaking to coarse to fine grinding zones. One of the reasons conical burr grinders may be better than flats is also apparent here -- this is a tiny burr set, yet the coarse grinding area is larger than the mini's (although not as large as the M3's. On a true commercial conical like the Conik or robur, these areas must be huge.

It also becomes obvious that the DRM/M3 conical is missing the coarse and fine grinding zones, and only has the augur-like bean breaking section.

When one puts the burrs together, one finds the same flush contact along the fine grinding zone as in the flat burr grinders:

Image


OK, that's it for grinder 101. I'm not sure if this tells one which grinder is best; but it does let one at least see what's going on with the grind stones.
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Link to "Versalab M3 Grinder"by another_jim on Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:58 am

OK, one more 101.

How about less then steller grinders:

Scoot on over to long time altie Ken Wilson's page on burr sets, which includes all the cheapies.

http://www.kwilson.fsnet.co.uk/burrs.htm

The low end flat burr grinders seem to missing anything but the bean breaking part. The Solis conicals don't have a fine grind section. The Zassenhaus burrs on the other hand look perfectly legit -- I suppose motorizing one of these could save someone some money compared to going with that 1K plus commercial conical.
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Link to "Versalab M3 Grinder"by Abe Carmeli on Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:31 am

Jim,

Thanks for the great post. I was sure the conicals do more than just funnel the beans against the flats, and that was a real 101 for me. One thing we did not discuss is how wear and tear plays a role here. It will dull the flats, I'm sure, but the conicals on the M3 seem to be immune to wear and tear as they really do very little work. What's the lifespan on the flats? I need to ask John that question.
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