RapidCoffee wrote:And the next time you make cappuccinos for a dinner party of six with your Sama and Kyocera hand grinder, please post a video.

A couple years ago I spent a Christmas eve making about 15 cappuccinos with a Caravel, a 'little flying horse' electric grinder, and a stovetop steamer sitting on an industrial gas stove on the other side of the (foreign student cafeteria) kitchen.

I wish I had a video of that! So yes, it can be done. And YES, it is an experience best avoided!

peacecup wrote:Thanks for the replies.

I think I'm asking this question at the most basic level. I realize there are differences among levers as well as among pump machines. I knew of course that the X1 would be said to be inferior, but I maintain it is capable of making espresso characteristic of pump machines. And I'm mainly comparing it to a home spring lever, the Sama. But of course I drink espresso at cafes whenever possible, and some very good ones, and these observations seem to hold.

So, to me, the mean comparison is this: Pump machines pour shots that are more or less 100% crema in the cup, settling out to a very thick layer if one waits long enough. Somehow I taste a distinct difference between these layers, unless I drink it immediately, in which case it tastes foamy. I find the coffee under the crema somehow thinner and less appealing than lever espresso.

Lever machines pour less crema, but the whole cup seems to be more integrated, have more mouthfeel. etc.

PC

The X1 does NOT deliver what I would call anything similar to what I achieve with my HX La Val. "foamy"? I have never pulled anything FOAMY, although the Mypressi kind of pulls something foamy IMO... "Thin under the crema"? Yes, you can enjoy the different layers and it's very nice, but my shots are heavy-bodied beasts with lots of flavour and crema. I do not have to wait to drink my espresso to enjoy its viscous mouthfeel and flavours.

Here is a machine you can try "both ways" - Bezzera Strega - new spring lever for home use

I think Olympia's machines would be good for an across the board comparison, although I have never used or tasted a Cremina for myself. I do recall reading someone's opinion that the cremina and maximatic produce shots of comparable quality but still with preferential differences. So I second that it is a tough argument like trying to argue which pasta sauce is always best: red or white.

Hi Jack,

You sure got us going with this one!

It seems to me your answer is pretty simple and easy to discern. Compare your very experienced and nuanced lever shots with what you get on pump machines at the best cafes.

With care, people on this forum say you'll get something comparable at home on an Elektra Semiautomatica or T1/A3 an Olympia Maximatic, and more expensive ones of course (Linea, etc.). I'm surprised that I'm getting similar quality to cafe shots on my E61 machine.

For personal preferences, you know I've really been enjoying my lever machines. Compared to you, I'm still coming up the learning curve.

When I want a luscious, buttery and balanced espresso that's sticky thick or a little more dilute than that, and repeatable shot after shot, my go-to machine is my PID'd Isomac Amica E61 machine. The espresso underneath is luscious and rich, not foam on top and thin underneath. And it gets great chocolates too. I like someone's comparison above to thick and thin pencil lines on a drawing. The E61 shots are thick lines, but well drawn in that they're balanced and repeatably delicious. However, it took me well over a year to improve my technique to the point it could stand up to 9 bars of pressure on a 58 mm coffee cake. The pump machine, though, allows me to attend more to dose, grind and temperature to fine-tune the balance of a shot.

I suppose I could get similar or better ristretto pulls with a Caravel but don't have one of those.

When I want to discern the subtle layers of flavor I turn to one of my Pavoni manual levers, and the characteristics of the coffee progressively reveal themselves as I savor a shot with clarity. If I want even more clarity, I go to the Lady Duchessa. If I want utterly chocolate espresso, it's the Microcimbali, though Duchessa can do that too with a Microcimbali double basket. In general, I've found the lever machines more forgiving of learner's technique.

Also, aren't one's latest efforts usually the best, assuming you're working with adequate gear, lever or pump? Fine coffee that's beautifully grown, processed and roasted is really the star, I believe, if one has sufficient skills and gear to execute a well dialed-in extraction.

is someone honestly suggesting that basket diameter is a significant component of taste?

imagine such a claim in a hobby you had no interest in, doesn't seem real plausible does it . . .

apple2k wrote:is someone honestly suggesting that basket diameter is a significant component of taste?

If you're responding to my comment about struggling with higher pressure and a larger basket, different machines require different skills, even among very experienced baristas. See: Dialing in a new espresso machine, a step by step guide. Before those skills are mastered, yes, the taste suffers. After that, there are discernible taste characteristics of different machines. So much is discussed about that here and it's the subject of this thread in particular.

apple2k wrote:imagine such a claim in a hobby you had no interest in, doesn't seem real plausible does it . . .

So your point is ...

If a person is not at all interested in a hobby they have no grounds to judge plausibility of anything about it, do they?