Mazzer Super Jolly doserless modification - Page 2

[cannonfodder]

How about an LED light under the ground chute? My Mini gets a bit dark under the doser in the early AM, and it will add a bit of aesthetic flash with the chrome and/or stainless.

[malachi]

funnel creates more clumping than chute in my experience.

[Teme]

Here's an interesting Mazzer Mini mod. Found it on a German forum, but in short this chap had a manual Mini and modded it with:

- a Mini E chute
- the Mini E PF fork
- the backplate from a Mini E

http://www.kaffee-board.de/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=32;t=5305

The parts were apparently ordered as spares. Apparently this is possible... and when you add a plug-in timer, you have yourself a discount price Mini E...

Br,
Teme

[shadowfax]

guess i need to call up mazzer. I asked EPNW about getting a spare Mini-E chute, but it's a no-go now... they don't have 'em yet.

[NewEnglandCliff]

Chute.

[badbean]

Here is some pics of my mods. It is made out of sheet metal, from wood stove piping, and riveted together. I mocked it up as a prototype in 30 minutes but it worked so well that I have not made a more permanent and better looking replacement yet. I used a small straight discharge chute as it is easier to clean out the old grounds which I periodicaly clean using a large shop vac. The bottom of the chute has a small flap that sits inside the grinder. When I hit the top of the chute with the back of my coffee brush it causes the flap to vibrate up and down and loosen the grounds as I'm grinding and ease them out of the chute into a container. Not a perfect solution. But I will probably grind out the discharge opening on the grinder to make it larger and install a short round pipe as a discharge chute later on and fabricate a new cover.

and

[lino]

Okay, things are going slower than I hoped (but what's new...)

Here's the business end of the latest prototype. *Should* actually be running in a week or two...

The coupe de grace is yet to be shown... These are just the teasers...

Oh, and pardon the condition of the SJ. It's an empty shell that's been partially sandblasted...

here's da pics:




I know it's early but, comments?

ciao

lino

[NewEnglandCliff]

Hey Lino,

I see where you're going with this and I like it. Does the bottom of the chute have to extend that far up into the grinds opening, or am I just looking at that wrong?

[puffinjk]

Lino,
I have been following your progress with great intrest, having just finished the martini shaker version mod. Your latest mod looks very clean. I will be interested to hear how it performs. I did have problems with stray grounds at the bottom of my chute, so I used the top of my martini shaker and made a funnel out of it for my portafilter. Makes for a very clean process now (my wife is very happy about this). Look forward to hearing about your progress.

jim

[lino]

A little update...

Been running with this version since this morning.
Can't say I'm crazy about it...

Pros:
Looks nice, simple
grounds stay well contained (for a doeserless)
grinds like a Mazzer (who woulda thought?)

Cons:
Clumping.


That's a pretty big con. The problem is that it starts in the tunnel from the burrs to the outside of the case. Very little accumulates in the chute.

As one would expect, the finer the grind, the worse the clumping. A little coarser than a "typical" espresso grind is enough for the "air pump" design of the burr carrier to blow the grinds straight out. With espresso, (in my limited ~10 shot experience) it's clump city.
But it gets a little worse, I've also noticed (since I don't have a bean hopper right now) when the beans run out, there is a little extra airflow available or something and the grinder can "blow" out the contents of the tunnel. This invariably seems to happen just as the PF is about full and you only need a little more... Bam! (well, it's not that exciting) You get the volume of the tunnel blown onto your full PF.

All these are fairly minor issues, and I've not had the pleasure of spending any time using a doser in a single-use environment. Perhaps that is no worse (or better?) than the issues with a doser?

Some others used the grinder this morning too, perhaps they could add their comments

[Teme]

A simple, relatively widely spaced mesh at the end of the chute could sort out the clumping, perhaps? I guess that's why the Mini E has one...

I think the design, pending some finishing touches, starts looking promising.

Br,
Teme

[NewEnglandCliff]

Lino,

Could you design the chute so that the floor of it ended and met at the floor of the tunnel, or even slightly below it? Also, if the sides were moved out a bit this might allow a freer movement of the grinds.

[lino]

I think perhaps it looks deceiving in the pictures. The chute is larger and does not obscure the "tunnel".

Here are some more pics (pardon the photography):


white plastic cover was only a quick temp. solution...





I tried to take a "clumped up" pic, but you couldn't see anything, then I did a quick scrape with a plastic fork handle. Some grinds present. Good brush would make it easy to clean (I think).

All the clumping appears to happen inside the tunnel. the grinds "extrude" out the hole. I guess I'm suggesting that my stuff has very little, or nothing to do with the clumping.

Also of relevance: the miniE has larger burrs in the mini frame. This would make a shorter tunnel to get the grounds out of the case, and might lead to less clumping??
Dan, you got a couple MiniEs right now. Can you tell if the grinds drop into the funnel in clumps?

ciao

lino

[HB]

Can you tell if the grinds drop into the funnel in clumps?

You and I are on the same page (link). If there is clumping, it's minimal judging from what ends up in the basket. I'll remove the finger guard and watch carefully the next few days (a lot easier with the Type B since the funnel lid is optional). In any case, it appears that the Mini E exit chute is both shallower and narrower than the Super Jolly. Of course I'm speaking from memory because someone (*ahem*) has mine at the moment. I noticed the opening seems more rounded than the Mini; again, I'll have to double-check them side-by-side to confirm if that's truly the case.

It's evident that the Mini E designers considered the same problem you're facing. Before I figured the Mini E's 64mm burrs were added to better justify the price; apparently it was an intentional choice to increase the exit speed and shorten the grinds' runway.

[puffinjk]

lino, What would happen if you blocked off the upper 1/4 of the exit chute. Would that create enough back pressure to reduce the clumping?

Jim

[lino]

Hey all,

Been having a related discussion with a friend off-forum. With his permission, I'll add a summary of his thoughts:
___________________________________

Lino, I have been thinking about the Mazzer "Doserless Mod" question and I wonder if we are perhaps going about this the wrong way when we look for a less expensive version of Mazzer's "spout".

Like most geeks, I find the Mazzer doser itself inconvenient because, in order to work as designed, it needs to grind and hold far more coffee than I will consume in a session. When I see all that coffee piled up, I think, "Gee, I need a little spout to let me grind and dispense only what I need." And I can even see on the web that Mazzer makes a "doserless" model that has a spout. But when I bought one, I discovered that this really doesn't address my problem. Again, it is a product designed for a high volume commercial environment whereas, in the home, the rate of consumption is statistically "erratic" and small, relative to a commercial environment. A spout for the home environment has to come to grips with two issues:

1. The Mazzer's little shelf in the grinding path and
2. The tendency of coffee grinds to temporarily stick to a surface.

The Mazzer grinding system includes the 1+ inch horizontal shelf connecting the grinding area to the dosing area. That shelf can hold about 8 grams of coffee, but doesn't always retain that much ... depending on the polish of the bottom surface and the "stickiness" of the particular grind/blend. This is fairly irrelevant in a shop where the dispensing is done from an inventory of ground coffee temporarily held in the doser. Nor is it a noticeable problem when grinding a pound into a bag. But in the home, the coffee often is ground and used one shot at a time to avoid extravagant waste. If a previously used Mazzer is loaded with 14 grams of beans and then turned on, it will drop between 10 and 18 grams of coffee off the shelf into either the doser or funnel, whichever is present. That is too much variance to use directly as the shot. It will spoil the predictability of the brew times and the taste. The solution to this in the home environment has been to lift the doser lid after grinding and to brush the reachable content of the shelf into the coffee to be dispensed.

Mazzer's doser replacement spout is intended to dispense into a bag to be weighed for final sale ... conveniently allowing for variations in weight or ignoring a 10 gram (2%) variance in a "500" gram bag. The spout introduces additional surface area stickiness into the system and often has a plug of coffee grounds stuck in it. This same grinder may be fine for a shop that can dispense 20 to 25 grams into the PF and throw any "excess" onto the floor during the tamping process. But in the real world, it sucks for home users who do not have an endless supply of somebody else's coffee.

The Mazzer ejects the grounds from the grinding area with significant velocity in an effort to clear the shelf. Hurtling down the spout, these make quite a mess as they plow into, and often out of, the PF basket. This may be tolerable in a shop, but not in your wife's kitchen. The popularity of the pastry brush mod addresses these problems by allowing the lid to be lifted to sweep grinds out of the shelf area and it catches the high velocity grinds and brings them to rest, preparatory having them swept by the vanes out the opening in the floor of the doser (introducing the famous "throw to the left" problem.)

My hypothesis is that the best doserless solution will look like the shell of the doser on the Mini E., not a traditional spout. This approach provides a large ejection area to decelerate the particles and a lid to allow for sweeping as needed. The construction could be matched in size to the opening in the case, thus eliminating the need for a separate closing plate. You may be able to think of a solution that incorporates the functional qualities of this design into an entirely different form factor that is easier to manufacture, but that is where your experience comes into play. But I would argue that a closed spout is dead end ... you are welcome to borrow mine Mazzer unit if you want to test this conclusion.

Feel free to share my thoughts with others, perhaps someone else will see something I am missing.

Ciao

Kitt

[Rockygag]

I really like the rev 2 model as compared to Rev 1.

I have made a funnel from some PCV parts and a dremel, functional, but ugly. White PVC and a hole where the motor was, this was a no go. I looked at the Martini mod, and I do not care for the visual line it adds to the SJ. I find it too bulky.

The EPNW kit that I had ordered was months away, so I canceled the order.
( The need to build an after market kit seems to say that the OEM part might never come )

The rev 2 chute model seems like just was I was looking for. I do however had a rivet gun and some tin snips, and a lowes is not too far away. I think that I may have a new project, since there is no firm production date. There is also no info on what the cost would be. ( or even the ball park )

For me, the issue has alway been keeping the chute/doser free of old grounds. The chute seem simpler than the doser, but as I am lazy, I somtimes just let the old grounds around, I know, not the best, but hey, there are limits to how geeky I will get.


All that said, I have been using the doser into a bowl, and for my limited home use, it is just not that hard ----- I have to ask myself, is the change really worth it? This make the dosing and clumping a non-problem. I have not really analyzed the sorting of ground size issue.

Dave

[HB]

Today we got together at Counter Culture Coffee to finalize the evaluation of Lino's prototype of the Super Jolly doserless modification. Since the Mazzer Mini E Doserless is currently On the Bench, we also took the opportunity to compare them in appearance and usability. First a side-by-side photo:



The stock Super Jollly hopper really adds a lot of height! Switching the hoppers brought it down to Earth and helped it look much more kitchen-friendly. The plastic strip shown along the top of the Super Jolly's snout is a prototype; in the final version, Lino plans to make it out of metal to match the face plate. We all agreed it looked nice, nearly original, and directed the grinds exiting the chute well.

If you turn back to the earlier posts in this thread, you'll see a photo of Lino's first prototype, which we jokingly refer to as "Elephant Man." One major problem with Elephant Man is clumping and retaining huge amounts of grinds in its curved snout. He's been relegated to grinding to drip coffee, which doesn't clog very easily.

The second prototype routes the grinds much better. Below is a side-by-side comparison of baskets filled with Lino's modification (left), the Mazzer Mini E Type A (middle), and doser Mazzer Robur (right):


(click to enlarge)

Peter dosed the basket on the right. As a point of interest, he's a medium-speed thwacker. Although visually there is some evidence of clumping from the doserless grinders, all felt it was inconsequential (the Mini E's sample is smoother than Lino's thanks to the little grid on the exit chute that breaks up grinds).

Bottom line: We agreed Lino's doserless conversion is ready for production! The fabrication will involve another shop, so he warns that it will take time to produce. He promised to update this thread with more information regarding availability and pricing soon.

Before leaving, Lino shared some of his future plans (he was very tight-lipped at first, but we pried it out of him). He'll publicly announce the next Verna Original product in this forum when he's finished some prototyping and planning. Cool stuff I assure you.

[stjones]

One of the more interesting threads I've had the pleasure to read. Any ETA?

Also, is the plan (I hope) to build a version that will also fit Mazzer Majors?

Thank you.

Stephen Jones

[lennoncs]

The biggest problem I see with the configuration of these grinders in general is the position of the chute relative to the burrs.
The coffee grounds are expected to make a square left turn after leaving the burr set and then bounce off the walls of the housing prior to leaving the machine.

When I look at my machine (SJ) there used to be an area of deposits where the grounds would exit the burr set and bounce off the left hand side of the housing before exiting to the doser. a minor port and polish job helped matters out but in no way eliminated the problem.

The exit chute for the grounds needs to be located at the point of tangency for the burr set to maintain maximum exit velocity and minimum residue. after the grounds are clear of the housing, then you can concentrate on deceleration and dispersion.

Sean