New Andreja owner with microfoam problem

[honeyboy]

Hi,
This is my first post to this list. I just bought a Quick Mill Andreja Premium after owning a Silvia. The Silvia made great micro foam but I have gone through a gallon of whole milk and still don't have it down with the Andreja. What is the trick with this machine? It has tons of steam!
I put the SS milk container in the freezer to cool it down, I use cold milk and I stretch the milk with the tip just under the surface until around 100 degrees. I then sink the tip into the container and hold at an angle to create the whirlpool effect. Before no time the milk is up to temp. and it is just hot milk with some foam on the top. I have modified this and tried different techniques to no avail. I bang the container on the table and swirl the milk too.

How does one make nice, tight microfoam with a Quick Mill Andreja? Please lead me to a previous post that explains the procedure if it is different than what I am doing or tell me how to do it?

Thanks much

[BobY]

Ah - I feel your pain!! It took me a long time to re-teach myself to make foam from an Andreja Premium after having made it so easily with a Silvia. And complain as I might, to Chris, to folks here, and to others - it was always me saying that the king had no clothes! I looked into getting an after-market three or four-hole tip to replace the huge double-holed tip of the Andreja, but to no avail - I'd have had to replace the entire arm and I didn't want to do that.

Of course none of that helps you to make foam. The short answer is - you just have to re-learn how to make foam with an enormous amount of steam power. I practiced with, and still use, a small 10-ounce SS pitcher trying over and over again to get microfoam until I finally conquered the sucker. I can tell you how I do it but you'll have to forget what you did on the Silvia and simply re-learn, using this machine.

I don't measure the temperature anymore so I can't give you exact numbers but basically, I do the following (in my case, with 2% organic milk although it's easier with whole milk). It sounds like this is what you're doing but obviously it isn't:

- cool the milk in the fridge (I don't use the freezer and this works even if the milk is warm)
- blow out the water in the steam wand with a few short blasts
- lean the wand arm on the inside of the spout using it as a kind of guide and bury the wand deep in the milk, turning it up to max. You don't need to open the valve all the way - just a turn or two.
- oh-so-slowly lower the pitcher until the tip gets near the surface and that unmistakable "tearing" sound is heard. This is the most critical part and from your description, it sounds like this is where it's not happening for you. It sounds like you're not getting the microfoam.
- watch the level of the surface rise - in my case the foaming causes it to rise about 3/4 inch and the outside of the pitcher feels "warm".
- bury the wand and find an angle in order to make sure that the milk is swirling around. When the outside upper part of the pitcher is too hot to touch, you're done.
- bang the pitcher a time or three to get rid of the bubbles and swirl the milk in the pitcher to circulate the foam evenly throughout the pitcher.
- pour...

No good? - Try again (or ask more questions)!! I know it seems impossible now but if you work at it, it will happen.

BobY

[honeyboy]

Boby,

Thanks very much. I will try your method. Does it matter how much milk is in the pitcher? When I want just one drink, I use about 1.5"s of milk. Does the amount of milk make a difference? I know the less milk, the quicker it will come to temp.

So, bury the arm all the way and turn on stream.

raise arm slowly until just below the surface. When I have 3/4" of foam on top,
bury the arm again and whirlpool untill the rim to so hot to hold.

I am curious. If possible, take the temp of the milk when your process is finished and let me know what range it is in. Also let me know the volume of milk you are foaming.

I'll try it.

thanks again

[HB]

The Silvia made great micro foam but I have gone through a gallon of whole milk and still don't have it down with the Andreja.

Heh heh... and online forums are replete with new Silvia owners begging for help, or searching for alternative steam tips. Practically every vendor offers a "easier" one, which typically end up in the drawer after a few months (I sold mine). It's all what your used to, I guess.

Does it matter how much milk is in the pitcher? When I want just one drink, I use about 1.5"s of milk. Does the amount of milk make a difference?

Yes! For purposes of practicing, I recommend wasting a little milk and working with no less than five ounces (12 ounce pitcher) or nine ounces (20 ounce pitcher). That will give you a wider margin of error. It's also worth practicing the mechanics with water; producing little bubbles without spraying, getting a good whirlpool, etc.

[JonR10]

Yes, it matters how much milk.

This process is all about the dynamic motion in the pitcher.
Stretch a little at the start. Not looking for 3/4 inch of foam, you're looking for a RISE of 3/4"
Then get that milk whirlpooling. Start the whirlpool early and really get the milk moving!

The whirlpool is the key. The milk should move smoothly without bubbling but it should also be vigorous.
The whirlpool blends the air bubbles into the milk throughout the pitcher, making the microfoam.

When I finish, I'm at about 140-145 F (stop stretching at 80 F for starters)

[BobY]

Boby,

Thanks very much. I will try your method. Does it matter how much milk is in the pitcher? When I want just one drink, I use about 1.5"s of milk. Does the amount of milk make a difference? I know the less milk, the quicker it will come to temp.

So, bury the arm all the way and turn on stream.

raise arm slowly until just below the surface. When I have 3/4" of foam on top,
bury the arm again and whirlpool untill the rim to so hot to hold.

I am curious. If possible, take the temp of the milk when your process is finished and let me know what range it is in. Also let me know the volume of milk you are foaming.

I'll try it.

thanks again

I fill the pitcher about 1/2 full but it's not critical. Just leave room at the top for the expansion. First turn on the steam and get rid of the water; then bury it and (this is the critical part) when you get the tip back up near the surface, raise it very, very slowly until you can just hear the tearing sound for a second or two. then bury it very slightly until the tearing stops and then up again for more tearing for another second or two. Then maybe a third time. In that way you can control the expansion. If you do it too much, it will be too foamy (instead of no foam). If that happens, next time back off on the amount of tearing (or expansion) until you get it just right. 3/4" above the original level (not 3/4" of foam) is what I get. For you, it will depend on your pitcher, amount of milk, etc.

Then whirl the milk until the upper part of the milk, as felt through the outside of the pitcher, is too hot to touch. The milk at the bottom of the pitcher gets hot before the top part because that's where the steam is.

I'll measure the volume and temperature tomorrow and let you know.

Bob

[BobY]

Boby,
I am curious. If possible, take the temp of the milk when your process is finished and let me know what range it is in. Also let me know the volume of milk you are foaming.

I use a 10 oz pitcher. That's about as small as they get and foaming in one of these babies with that huge amount of steam and a two-hole tip is not easy. If you can learn to microfoam in one of these, you're probably good to go for nearly any size. I put 5 1/2 oz. of 2% organic milk into the pitcher and at the point that I can't touch the upper outside of the pitcher, the milk reaches a temperature of 150 deg F.

Bob

[elibenton]

Any chance of someone posting a nice video of frothing using either a Vetrano or Andreja premium.? I have read the posts but am yet to perfect the technique. Video showing tip positioning with sound would be extremely useful. Thanks for the help.

[k7qz]

I didn't see it mentioned yet, so I'll add my bit. Try learning using whole milk. The extra fat seems to microfoam easier than 2% or skim while you're learning the machine.

Once you get it, you've got it!

Instead of having a minute or two to correct your mistakes, you'll learn to work faster and get it right within a shorter time frame-

When I upgraded to a high horsepower machine I was tempted to use a "cheater tip" to make up for my crummy technique. Dan suggested I hang in there with the stock tip and learn to use my machine to it's full advantage. Now I'm really glad I took his advice. Thanks Dan!

[arossphoto]

Any chance of someone posting a nice video of frothing using either a Vetrano or Andreja premium.? I have read the posts but am yet to perfect the technique. Video showing tip positioning with sound would be extremely useful. Thanks for the help.

I'd love to see a video of proper frothing technique as well. Has anything like this ever been posted?

Thanks,

Andrew

[cannonfodder]

Like this?

[arossphoto]

That's great and he sure makes it look easy. There didn't seem to be much movement in the pitcher or the steam wand. The milk rose quite quickly, but he didn't seem to lower the pitcher at all to compensate like I would have expected.

Thanks for posting that.

[cannonfodder]

Before you get too excited, that is no Andreja he is using. That is a much larger two, maybe three group commercial machine, although I am not sure what brand it is. The steaming power from it versus your Andreja is night and day. You have to work at it more with the smaller machines, but once you get the hang of it, you will wonder why it took so long to master. It will become a natural tendency. I can even froth in Styrofoam McDonald's hot cups with my Isomac. I have a two group at home, while not as effortless as the video, it is much easier and faster IMHO.

[SuperT]

Newb to microfoam question:

When the milk is ready, should the WHOLE pitcher be consistant microfoam (top to bottom) or should it have milk on the bottom and a layer of foam on top of that?

Thanks,
T

[HB]

There didn't seem to be much movement in the pitcher or the steam wand. The milk rose quite quickly, but he didn't seem to lower the pitcher at all to compensate like I would have expected.

This weekend I was showing a friend how to pull shots and steam milk on a semi-automatic; he's the same guy I'm trying to steer away from super-autos. Richard had watched one too many PBTC's prepare a cappuccino. You know the type that bobs the wand in the pitcher like they're milking a cow? I explained that the zone between stretching (the air injection up to ~100F) and the texturing (the swirling up to ~150F) was a difference of less than 1/2". Corrections to the stretching depth is in millimeters, not inches, and I recommend resting the steam wand against the interior of the pitcher to better judge the small changes. We practiced a bit with water to get a feel for the mechanics, and then followed with pitchers of milk (20 ounce pitcher with 9 ounces). He caught on quickly and was steaming respectable microfoam by the fourth pitcher.

When the milk is ready, should the WHOLE pitcher be consistant microfoam (top to bottom) or should it have milk on the bottom and a layer of foam on top of that?

Top to bottom is the goal. The purpose of the final texturing phase is to mix the microfoam throughout. It's easier with commercial equipment steaming power, but still quite doable with prosumer gear too. Finish by swirling and thunking the pitcher to further mix, break bubbles that may have inadvertently formed, and "polish" the surface. It's one of those practice, practice things. If you can get a 20 minute demonstration from a skilled barista, it can easily cut a few weeks off your learning curve.

[SuperT]

Thank you Dan!

I'm a new owner of an Andreja and coming from a Gaggia Evolution - I was never able to get great microfoam. I guess it may be better for me, as I've never done it compared to the Silvia crowd.

I always thought I wanted a layer of foam so the milk would pour under the espresso and the foam would sit on top for art and what not. This sheds a whole new light on things!

Best,
T

[cannonfodder]

Dan has answered most of your questions. My tip, start with the tip submerged right where the tip and wand join. Open the valve, slowly lower the pitcher until you get the magic Pfft, psssst, pffffft, sound and keep it there until your thermometer reads 80F, then lower the tip just enough that the sound stops and continue to 140F and kill the steam. The milk will carry over to about 148F. You should not need to submerge the tip any farther than where the tip meets the steam tube.

I keep the steam wand at about a 30 degree angle and the pitcher tilted to the left with the steam wand on the left side of the pitcher. The angle helps to generate a vortex. If I get a chance, I will video a steam session on my Isomac and my Faema and post them.

[HunkaBurninLove]

I don't know if the Andreja has the same 2-hole steam tip as the Anita that I'm using, but it seems that the dual hole throws me off and I can't get the incorporation vortex (even after practicing everyday for the past month).

I've tried practicing with soapy water and using various angles/positions but can't get it down yet. Maybe it's time to take a break and revisit it later.

[HB]

The Anita and Andreja Premium don't have the same steam tip. I believe yours is similar to Dave's Isomac. If you're having trouble with texturing, try creating a vortex like this:


Sorry about the quality of this diagram...

The pitcher is tilted to the left and towards you; the force of the steam wand is directed downwards and slightly towards the front and right. You should be able to get a nice "offset" vertical spin with a 20 ounce pitcher and 9 ounces of milk. With a 12 ounce pitcher, you must pay attention to avoid splattering. When done correctly, you will see the effects of the liquid rebounding off the bottom of the pitcher on the opposite side. It is not an end-over-end roil; Anita doesn't quite have enough steam for that.

[cannonfodder]

That is how I have to stretch on my Isomac. I get a downward in the front and up in the back roll. There is just not enough oomph in a 1.5L boiler machine to vortex and swirl the milk. There is a sweet spot to get the milk rolling. You have to have the steam arm at the right angle, the pitcher at the right angle and the tip to side positioning just right.

It takes a lot of practice, pay attention to the angles and position so once you get it, you can repeat. It also takes about four seconds in one position for the milk to gain momentum and start rolling. If you keep repositioning the tip, it will not have time to get rolling.