Espresso Drink Assembly Question

[okaychatt]

Why is pulling the shot, then microfoaming considered "wrong"?

I am very slow when creating espresso based drinks. Though it is sacrilege to assemble quads, I often throw caution to the winds, figuring I can dodge the Espresso Police yet again. Rest assured that lattes and capps are proportioned correctly.

I foam the milk, then pull two shots back to back.

My problem with quad shot drinks is that by the time I've finished grinding, distributing, leveling, tamping, and pulling the two double shots, the microfoam has separated. I usually tap/swirl the pitcher intermittently while doing the other tasks.

I suppose the answer is to not even attempt a quad drink when microfoaming is involved, but I thought I'd ask.

Would pulling the shots first, then microfoaming be such a venal sin? I have an S1, so having enough steam power is not an issue.

Edited to correct first sentence.

[187]

I think the proper solution is to get a two group machine

[Dogshot]

Hi Kay, I think you should have 2 baskets and remove your PF spring. Prepare both baskets, then pull both shots in as quick succession as your machine allows. Then steam and go. I think the conventional rule of steam then pull is more suited to the home user with a machine that is not as steam-capable as the S1. Your S1 can steam up a storm in no time (I once heard 8oz in 15 seconds?), so the time taken to steam should just allow your crema to begin settling (especially if you use a bottomless PF).

Mark

[paisley]

I have a question along the lines of this so I hope nobody minds if I ask it here. Please forgive me if this is not proper home-barista.com questioning etiquette.

My first "real" espresso machine with grinder came by UPS on Monday. It is the Rancilio Silvia and Rocky (doserless) set. My shots of espresso are improving with each pull and every tidbit I read and implement. (thanks everyone for all the assistance) Frothing has actually been rather simple and improved drastically but I am sure this has more to do with all the years I spent working on froth via the previous Mr. Coffee Espresso steam toy I've had for some 18+ years. Espresso is getting better with my tamp techniques and froth is silky and smooth. Actually, frothing is the least of my problems. My biggest problem now consists of the espresso cooling too quickly despite using the passive warming tray on top and filling the mug with hot water from the steam wand. The other issue is my tamp because when I use two shot glasses to pull the shot I always end up with more espresso in one shot glass than the other. The only solution I have to the heat problem is to pour the shot(s) into a thermos-style travel mug I bought from the cafe near me. It keeps it hotter but still it cools too quickly for me to really enjoy it. Is there something else I can do?

I hear it is bad form to froth first and brew second because the Silvia has to come down in temperature to brew. Is there a way around this or is it best to keep brewing first and frothing second while attempting to speed up my work? Right now, I am a bit of a slowpoke because I am trying to be more consistent from shot to shot as well as the whole ordeal of learning to make espresso using a "real" machine too. I would be most appreciative for any tips or hints.

Paisley

[HB]

Would pulling the shots first, then microfoaming be such a venal sin? I have an S1, so having enough steam power is not an issue.

That's what most competitors do, i.e., pull two doubles in four cups, then froth. Some will froth two separate pitchers to help the evenness.

It keeps it hotter but still it cools too quickly for me to really enjoy it. Is there something else I can do?

Preheating the cups boiling hot and moving quickly is about all you can do. The waiting issue is what drove me to upgrade from Silvia.

I hear it is bad form to froth first and brew second because the Silvia has to come down in temperature to brew. Is there a way around this or is it best to keep brewing first and frothing second while attempting to speed up my work?

That's really the only choice. If you froth first, the chances of obtaining correct brew temperature drop precipitously.

[paisley]

Thanks Dan. I'll work on speed next. I have frothing down well thanks to learning on the Mr.C and added tips from here. The new tamper (RSVP Gem Tamper) is helping me make great strides in tamping too. Improvement is coming by leaps and bounces, not leaps and bounds. Thanks to advice from you and a few others, I now have a tamper technique that works well. I use a pin to break up clumps. The NSEW tamping I did is not necessary any longer with the new tamper. I tamp straight down and twist evenly. The levels in the two shot glasses are more equal (1 to 1-1/2 oz per shot) and I pull the shots at 20 to 22 seconds with lots of crema, diminishing bitterness, and more honey-like flow than ever. BTW, the RSVP has a convex bottom like the included plastic tamper but at least it is the same dimension as the PF basket so it makes it easier to tamp evenly. Thanks again for the assistance.

Personal and only gripe/snipe with purchase:
I realized something that bothers me greatly regarding Rancilio, the company. Rancilio goes to great lengths manufacturing a high quality bestselling home espresso machine, certainly a top contender for #1. They didn't skimp on the machine considering commercial-grade parts such as the brass boiler, commercial size/weight PF, and stainless steel exterior with an iron frame. Why not include a stainless steel tamper? I plan to email the company regarding this because without a quality tamper, Silvia is no more than frothing attachment/hot water dispenser. My experience with contractors' books, DH's former company included, with six years of college studying accounting and business tells me changing the plastic tamper to steel would be negligible to the bottomline in terms of cost to the company. IMHO, the plastic tamper is an insult to the consumer's intelligence. Maybe this isn't the case at first but certainly it becomes so within the first few days to weeks. Rancilio Silvia is synonymous with quality to adding a real tamper would complete quality and provide the perfect beanie, no pun intended. (big grin)

The waiting issue is what drove me to upgrade from Silvia.

Regarding other higher-end machines, unless my coffee consumption increases dramatically, I feel Silvia will be with me for a long long time to come. Considering I drink only 1 to 2 cups a day, although I'm expanding to 3 to 4, I feel upgrading to a dual boiler and/or heat exchange isn't necessary. I can handle the little quirks with temperature as long as I work out a solution to the reservoir ordeal. I'm still contemplating that one and making progress.

Paisley

[HB]

They didn't skimp on the machine considering commercial-grade parts such as the brass boiler, commercial size/weight PF, and stainless steel exterior with an iron frame. Why not include a stainless steel tamper? I plan to email the company regarding this because without a quality tamper, Silvia is no more than frothing attachment/hot water dispenser.

Many Italian coffee bars use the tamper appendage on the grinder, simply lifting up slightly to tamp:


Jon's mid-tamp from
How to make a beautiful "naked" triple espresso

Others grind fine, overdose, and don't tamp at all, letting the lock-in of the portafilter compress the puck against the grouphead. I wonder why they bother to include a tamper, cheapie or not. If they do offer an explanation, please let us know.

[paisley]

Will do. Although I have to say that considering the outcome of the shots I am making and the earlier unmaking, I cannot imagine not tamping at all. (grin)

Paisley

[luca]

Personal and only gripe/snipe with purchase:
I realized something that bothers me greatly regarding Rancilio, the company. Rancilio goes to great lengths manufacturing a high quality bestselling home espresso machine, certainly a top contender for #1. They didn't skimp on the machine considering commercial-grade parts such as the brass boiler, commercial size/weight PF, and stainless steel exterior with an iron frame. Why not include a stainless steel tamper? I plan to email the company regarding this because without a quality tamper, Silvia is no more than frothing attachment/hot water dispenser. My experience with contractors' books, DH's former company included, with six years of college studying accounting and business tells me changing the plastic tamper to steel would be negligible to the bottomline in terms of cost to the company. IMHO, the plastic tamper is an insult to the consumer's intelligence. Maybe this isn't the case at first but certainly it becomes so within the first few days to weeks. Rancilio Silvia is synonymous with quality to adding a real tamper would complete quality and provide the perfect beanie, no pun intended. (big grin)

Well ... I've got to disagree that Rancilio 'goes to great lengths' to manufacture any of their machines. Basically, it looks like it is just cobbled together from a bunch of commercial groups that they had sitting around and some switches and wires that they presumably didn't have to go to great lengths to source. The only real quality differences between a Silvia and a cheaper machine seem to be the case, the material that the boiler is made from, the lack of a froth aider and the commercial portafilter. Seems to me like it was intended to require the minimum design effort possible; the fact that it is awesome relative to anything else in the price bracket is really due, more than anything, to other manufacturers cutting even more corners on everything else. It has been said a million times, but there are lots of things that could be done at very little cost to improve the Silvia - eg. add microswitch so that you steam with the element on, some way of knowing how full the boiler is without removing the lid and an OPV designed to be adjusted. Given the length of time that the machine has been on the market and the seeming lack of improvements, I very much doubt that Rancilio would go and find a decent tamper. Presumably they outsource them, so the best bet is probably to find out who makes La Marzocco's 58mm plastic tampers and give their details to Rancilio.

Sorry; on reflection, that sounds a little harsh! I guess that it's just a result of having peeked inside a commercial Rancilio machine the other week; absolute dog's breakfast. For example, where every single other manufacturer uses an actively-heated grouphead, Rancilio just uses the exact same thing as on the Silvia. Might be OK at home, but not in a commercial environment.

Thanks to advice from you and a few others, I now have a tamper technique that works well. I use a pin to break up clumps. The NSEW tamping I did is not necessary any longer with the new tamper. I tamp straight down and twist evenly. The levels in the two shot glasses are more equal (1 to 1-1/2 oz per shot) and I pull the shots at 20 to 22 seconds with lots of crema, diminishing bitterness, and more honey-like flow than ever. BTW, the RSVP has a convex bottom like the included plastic tamper but at least it is the same dimension as the PF basket so it makes it easier to tamp evenly. Thanks again for the assistance.

The Gem tamp looks identical to one of the EPNW tampers. I used to use one at the last cafe that I worked with; got great results by gently pushing the coffee bed down part way a few times to prevent grounds from rising up the edge, then tamping down exactly once. (This practically eliminated channeling as verified on the naked portafilter and is now my standard technique) A word of warning; be careful not to knock the tamper onto the ground; the handle shatters!

Hope that helped ... or at least was relatively amusing,

Luca

[HB]

Basically, it looks like it is just cobbled together from a bunch of commercial groups that they had sitting around and some switches and wires that they presumably didn't have to go to great lengths to source.

If the lore of Silvia's origins are true, you're right, it was cobbled together. The story goes that Silvia was a "thank you" gift for resellers of their commercial line. The machine proved so popular among the receivers that Rancilio decided to sell it publicly. The rest is history.

[paisley]

I agree the Silvia could be better; however, given the state of your average coffee addict's finances, the Silvia offers something unique. It offers a chance at a real espresso machine at the least about of cost for the most machine.

Silvia performs leagues above the steam toys yet it costs leagues below a commercial machine. This is a catch-22 situation but considering the alternative, it sure is nice to have the chance to own one. Given my years of experience with a steam toy (Mr. Coffee ECM2), I can say from experience that I would not want to go back to one of those machines again ever. As for owning a more expensive machine? Right now it is not possible. Purchasing the Silvia with Rocky was difficult enough but at least it was well enough into my price range that I could make the length with a bare minimum of financial fallout. Besides, this gives me the opportunity to figure out if I want to take my coffee addiction to the next level or if I want to remain where I am now. The purchase of a $1000+ machine is simply difficult to justify. For many, it is impossible to consider with any ties to the real world of finance.

Luca, I understand completely what you are saying but consider for a moment what it would be like for so many without the option of the Silvia. You cannot imagine what I went through with DH when I began my quest for an espresso machine. Since I cannot work a full-time job due to health issues, I needed DH's assistance in order to purchase the Silvia and Rocky. He was less than pleased with the price tag. I am certain he would have blown if I pushed for next round up in the $1000+ range. MOF, the only reason I mentioned the higher priced machines was to lessen the stick shock of the Silvia. I planned to purchase a refurbished Maccinino grinder but at the last minute changed my mind. I bought the Rocky instead because of the reputation and reviews. I wanted the better grinder particularly since I switch between grinding for espresso for Silvia and drip for the Bunn. I want to buy DH a French press or Bodum Pour-Over pot in the future, maybe for his birthday. DH did blow a gasket when he learned I went a bit over budget by $115.

My situation is not much different that many I am sure but consider this for a moment. The Silvia and Rocky allowed me to have a chance at real espresso; I mean quality espresso that I would not have had the opportunity enjoy otherwise if my only choice was the higher $1000+ priced machines. This goes without adding a grinder. Finances are not great here with one child in her senior year and with a heart condition to boot along with ADD (attention deficit disorder) and plans to go to nursing school in the fall following graduation. We have a younger daughter that requires much because she is an AIG student, academically gifted. It's difficult to keep a step ahead of her in books and mind-challenging toys, games, etc... The fact that our home is over 30 years old goes without saying. We had a new roof put in last year without having to resort to financing the money. The plan is to replace the windows with thermopanes this summer, again hopefully without the need to finance. The siding comes next because it is falling off the house in places. The master bathroom needs to be ripped apart to repair plumbing since ripping out the shower/tub is the only access to the plumbing. The kitchen needs linoleum and a new drop-in stove, which will require a carpenter since the standards on stoves changed somewhere alone the time and my custom cabinets will need some shaving. I refuse to leave this to amateurs. The carpet needs replacing throughout the house. I want hardwook Pergo while DH wants Berber. We recently bought graduation items including pictures and now we have to order senior cap and gown pictures. Then there is prom, graduation party, etc... Life gets in the way of having fun. It's nice to have a small luxury to enjoy. The Silvia and Rocky are the only machines in a price range for middle income people with families, mortgages, car payments, etc... Actually, I fear if Rancilio did rebuild Silvia to include say a heat exchanger or more gauges and gizmos the price would skyrocket into the $1000+ range pushing it too far out of the reach of your average working adult. However, that being said, I am sure there are some areas of improvement without compromising their bottomline and allowing the machine to stay within the price range it is currently holding. A steel tamper is but one of those things. BTW, I did send an email to the company. I'll post what I find out if anything.

A word of warning; be careful not to knock the tamper onto the ground; the handle shatters!

BTW, thanks for the heads up on the tamper Luca. Did the one you mention shatter from hitting the floor or the espresso equipment? I have wood floors beneath the linoleum in the kitchen, not hardwood but regular wood. I desperately want hardwood floors but the day that happens will be long after the final mortgage payment and both kids are grown and away from home living their own lives. (grin) I've dropped a 2-cup glass Pyrex measuring cup on the floor of my kitchen a few times and never chipped it. I hope this proves as well for the tamper. I really like the feel of it.

Paisley

[HB]

Luca, I understand completely what you are saying but consider for a moment what it would be like for so many without the option of the Silvia.

I didn't mean to imply that going up to the next class of espresso machine was the only option. In fact, according to well-informed home baristas like Jim Schulman and reviewers alike (link), the Solis SL70 performs very well and costs less than Silvia ($349 versus $495 on amazon.com). It looks pretty plain Jane by comparison though. I noticed that WholeLatteLove no longer carries it and some online vendors list it as out of stock. Maybe it's no longer made?

[paisley]

The Solis SL70 and SL90 are still out there but the few I did manage to find before making the decision on Silvia had listings of prices higher than Silvia. Plus, I am not keen on the fact the PF is not a standard size. The 58mm PF/filter basket on the Silvia makes it a great purchase because this is a standard size, according to what I read online. There are no issues with ordering customized parts for it since the standard is set and used throughout the machine for the most part.

The cost-factor, materials, recognition, resale value, and reviews regarding quality are the reasons I chose the Silvia over all others. This one just works out for the best all around.

Paisley

[okaychatt]

Hi Kay, I think you should have 2 baskets and remove your PF spring. Prepare both baskets, then pull both shots in as quick succession as your machine allows. Then steam and go. I think the conventional rule of steam then pull is more suited to the home user with a machine that is not as steam-capable as the S1. Your S1 can steam up a storm in no time (I once heard 8oz in 15 seconds?), so the time taken to steam should just allow your crema to begin settling (especially if you use a bottomless PF).

Mark

Hi Mark. I'll just remove the spring, then. I've tried the larger springs per the S1 website's advice, but I still find it difficult to get those baskets out.

My only concern is that by removing the pf spring, I'll have a tad harder time knocking out the puck without the basket falling out. Your advice is certainly worth a shot though.

Watch the CNN headlines for indication of my successful resolution of this earth shaking issue. HA!

Thanks.

[barry]

That's what most competitors do, i.e., pull two doubles in four cups, then froth.

and it makes me cringe whenever they do, and it usually has a negative impact on their score.


espresso should wait for nothing and no one.


--barry "in theory. practice may be different"

[RapidCoffee]

I'll just remove the spring, then.

Hi Kay. Mark's suggestion is excellent. Other options:

* Get a couple of ridgeless filter baskets (if available in 53mm). They slip in and out much easier than ridged baskets, even with the PF spring in place.
* Get a second portafilter (obviously bottomless ). You can have them both ready to lock and load, no basket swapping involved.
* Make two doubles instead of one quad. Twice the fun!

Somewhat OT: you've had the S1 for a couple of months now - do you like it??? Don't be bashful...

- John

[barry]

They didn't skimp on the machine considering commercial-grade parts such as the brass boiler, commercial size/weight PF, and stainless steel exterior with an iron frame. Why not include a stainless steel tamper?

fwiw, you can spend $15,000 on a commercial machine and still not get a decent tamper, so don't feel so bad.


or, look at it this way: you can spend $50 for your own tamper made just the way you like it, or you can have $150 added to the price of a silvia to cover a tamper which you might not like anyway.

[HB]

and it makes me cringe whenever they do, and it usually has a negative impact on their score.

Not sure that I follow you. What is the ideal sequence you envision for competitors on multi-group espresso machines? Does the same sequence apply to okaychatt's single group / capable steamer?

[barry]

Not sure that I follow you. What is the ideal sequence you envision for competitors on multi-group espresso machines? Does the same sequence apply to okaychatt's single group / capable steamer?

ask me this question again, after the USBC.

[okaychatt]

Hi Kay. Mark's suggestion is excellent. Other options:

* Get a couple of ridgeless filter baskets (if available in 53mm). They slip in and out much easier than ridged baskets, even with the PF spring in place.
* Get a second portafilter (obviously bottomless ). You can have them both ready to lock and load, no basket swapping involved.
* Make two doubles instead of one quad. Twice the fun!

Somewhat OT: you've had the S1 for a couple of months now - do you like it??? Don't be bashful...

- John

Hi John. I'm over the moon with my S1. It was worth the extra effort to have a plumbed in machine. Her steam power could run a freight train, and the temp control makes life so easy.

I can pull as many shots as needed and microfoam at the drop of a dime. We love to entertain, and Vivaldi acts as the perfect host when espressos are on the menu.

I have several pf (one naked), and the only problem I see with that solution is that one pf simply won't be hot enough. Would running blank shots do the trick to heat one up so that the shot works?

Good idea on the ridgeless 53mm baskets. I'll try to track some down tonight. (I didn't realize that would make a difference in how they fit into the pf.)

Barry - I agree on espresso not having to wait on anyone, and if I were faster, I wouldn't have asked the question. So, I'll continue to work on speed combined with proper procedure. For the time being, I'll pull the shot, then foam. My ultimate goal is to get fast enough to make my drinks properly - foam, then pull the shot.