Ponte Vecchio Lusso vs Gaggia Achille

[Corto]

After reading few articles on that two lever machines, one question remains quite unclear: which of them perform the best espresso. Even if they differ from the style (more or less body), I still have doubts about Lusso espresso' quality.
As I plan to change my pump machine...

[grong]

I still have doubts about Lusso espresso' quality.

I wonder why?

Choosing a machine is so difficult. Perhaps you are leaning towards a choice.

Can only one machine make good espresso? Of course, there can only be one best.

[narc]

The only lever machines I have experience with are the Elektra MicroCasa A Leva (MCaL) and the Ponte Vecchio Lusso (PVL). My opinion is that even using the same blend or single origin (SO), the machines pull espressos of different character. The PVL is closer to the characteristics of my old E61/HX/vibe pump machine (IsomacTea). Heavier mouth feel, sweeter bias at the cost of more distinct flavors from the MCaL. Both IMO are capable of quality shots. It's more dependent upon operator vs. the machine. Best quality espresso difference between the Gaggia and PVL will probably be a personal choice.

[timo888]

After reading few articles on that two lever machines, one question remains quite unclear: which of them perform the best espresso. Even if they differ from the style (more or less body), I still have doubts about Lusso espresso' quality.
As I plan to change my pump machine...

Stylistic (body) differences are superficial compared to the core differences, among them:

-- Lusso is a spring lever operating at ~6 bar and Achille is a manual lever operating at ...7...8...9...10 bar
-- Lusso has a vintage water draw and a vintage basket diameter (45mm) and Achille has a larger water draw and a 58mm basket
-- Lusso manages temperature for you with a passive thermosyphon and Achille requires you to control the temperature in a proactive manner by a flush regimen

Both are capable machines. You have to decide for yourself which machine makes espresso to your tastes and whether you prefer the simplicity of the Lusso's temperature management versus the relative complexity of the Achille's heat exchanger, a complexity that brings greater control over the temperature ... when you have mastered the flushing regimen.

Regards
Timo

[Dogshot]

After reading few articles on that two lever machines, one question remains quite unclear: which of them perform the best espresso. Even if they differ from the style (more or less body), I still have doubts about Lusso espresso' quality.
As I plan to change my pump machine...

I have come to settle on the opinion that the 'versus' strategy is not a successful one when it comes to purchasing an espresso machine. Almost all the machines talked about here on HB are highly capable of delivering the best of what the user's skills and the coffee can offer, with interesting variations on a theme.

My suggestion is to get the machine that interests you the most, for whatever reasons.

Mark

[prof_stack]

The Gaggia will probably come closer to the taste profile from your pump machine. It will require more work on your part.

The PV Lusso will be easier to make consistent shots. Tamping on a spring lever is often less than on a manual lever.

Both will make great espresso.

[ogatasan]

After reading few articles on that two lever machines, one question remains quite unclear: which of them perform the best espresso. Even if they differ from the style (more or less body), I still have doubts about Lusso espresso' quality.
As I plan to change my pump machine...

In my opinion it is a general and widespread misconception that there is something like a "best" or even "perfect" espresso. To my understanding this absolute claim is against the nature of coffee.

There is no objective best shot profile, bean, roast, grind, whatever the variables are - there is only a common sense of what an espresso is but within those boundaries lies the real joy of variety and nuances.

Nobody can seriously answer which (of the two) machines makes the best espresso, or - and thats a very different question - is capable of making the best espresso...

I'd like to conclude that each is potentially capable of doing so and while one might be more consistent, the other might have the potential to surprise you. Whereas one might produce safer results the other might be more challenging but also rewarding in good hands. And even if both machines were under the control of a barista with "perfect" control, the judgement of the result would still come down to personal taste and preferences.

Your question has been answered by others insofar as differences and potentials have been pointed out. Whats left for you is to either opt for certain features or to compare both over a long time and accept that you might change your repeatedly

Without much experience aside from the Europiccola i prefer manual over spring levers. I'd like to have an Achille some time because i consider it great design: to have a HX machine that cools the grouphead and draws fresh water.

[Corto]

Finally I just bought a Lusso, from bella-barista ( great service: quick, with 1kg beans from Jamaica).
Tomorrow I get cracking...

[timo888]

Finally I just bought a Lusso, from bella-barista ( great service: quick, with 1kg beans from Jamaica).
Tomorrow I get cracking...

<image>

Enjoy the new machine.

Make sure the beans were roasted within the past week. Otherwise, you'll be off to a very inauspicious start.

Regards
Timo

[beansbats]

As someone who is undergoing the same internal debate as you regarding the Achille or the Lusso. I have decided (I think) to go with a two group Lusso. My reasons include 1. I am currently a manual lever user and want to try a spring lever, 2. I make enough espresso for friends that two groups sounds like a good idea, 3. and for some reason the tiny portafilter appeals to me

Having said this, I am not ruling out an Achille in the future Good luck with your decision!

-beans

[peacecup]

I have never tried the Achille, but I have no complaints about having chose the PV spring lever a couple of years back. The tiny PF is surprisingly versatile, although I'm sure there are a variety of baskets available for the 58-mm Gaggia as well.

I had the opportunity to compare my Export to a La Pavoni earlier this year, I'd say that each make great coffee, but that the spring lever is more forgiving. Conversely, the manual offers a little greater brew pressure.

PC

[Fullsack]

I am not ruling out an Achille in the future

There are several posts on this site and others, regarding mechanical problems with the Achille. Included are reports of leaky steam valves, issues with the vendor and the overall lack of quality in the construction of the Achille. Do some more research before making a final decision.

[Corto]

I read on other post, the pressure was too high: I find it is the case. Apparently it is easy to adjust it down, but can somebody explain me the procedure please; I don't want to make a mistake.
Thanks

[Fullsack]

When it happend on my Achille, the vendor told me they had been having problems with the valves and they needed to be replaced. Nothing was ever mentioned about pressure being a factor.

[HB]

Apparently it is easy to adjust it down, but can somebody explain me the procedure please

See Gaggia Achille Adjusting Boiler Pressure.

[peacecup]

Corto wants to know how to adjust the pstat on the Lusso. You'll need to open the case (see the Lever Smackdown Thread), then it is just a simple turn of the screw on the Mater Pstat.

PC

[timo888]

I read on other post, the pressure was too high: I find it is the case.

Remember to unplug the machine before working on it.

What is the reading on the pressure gauge?

Regards
Timo

[peacecup]

The Mater PStat on my Ponte Vecchio Export is the same, I think, as the new Lussos. You adjust the pressure down by turning the screw in the "-" direction. Maybe a 1/4 of a turn at a time is a good increment.

[narc]

Corto, are you referring to a Ponte Vecchio pstat setting?

The Mater XP110 pressurestat that came on the Ponte Vecchio Lusso 2 (PVL) has a relatively tight deadband of 0.1bars. I don't remember the original factory setting (?1.2 bars). Readjusted it downwards to 1.0 bars (0.95-1.05 bar range). Based on a "Steam Table" a 1.0 bar boiler pressure = 121.0C water temp. The 1.2 bar factory setting would = ~123.6C water temp. After using this machine for couple months on a daily basis I'm of the opinion that the non-direct grouphead connection does not overheat and probably has the sink heat capacity to deal with an extra 2.6C of water temp. Adjustment of the pstat for personal taste relative to the SO or blend you are using makes sense, but altering the pstat setting for just thermo reasons may be waste of time.

[Alchemist]

Corto, I am going to go completely out on a limb, bare my soul, don my heat proof undies, and say:

Achille. No contest.

Why? First on foremost, MY taste. I own an Achille. I have tasted espresso from a PV. IMO (hedging back from the edge of that limb) the 9 bar you can achieve doesn't compare to the sub 9 deliverable from a spring. That simple if for no other reason.. I have had many a shot on a spring, and they can be good, but I have never had an amazing shot. Just good. That counters to the countless eye fluttering great ones I have pulled from my Gaggia.

Now, to go onto the other items noted about the Achille. Mine too developed a steam wand leak. PITA. But the vendor (Aabree) has been GREAT on repair and replacement of the valve. Seems to be the Achille's Achilles' heel. But that isn't what you ask. But it is relevant to making a purchase of that magnitude.