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PID Silvia temp stability thoughts

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Link to "PID Silvia temp stability thoughts"by miKe mcKoffee on Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:26 pm

I had thought Silvia was rather temperature unstable when doing multiple back to back shots. My measurements showed about 15f difference between PID reading from boiler and grouphead from idle. Series of shots differential decreased and stabilizes at 8f difference from about shot 10 onward.

After playing with the GS3 yesterday and discussing its grouphead heating configuration which is rock solid idle versus series of shots, thinking about E61 and it's design which will have overheated grouphead from idle then stable in series of shots and Silvia and other passively heated groupheads understanding finally occurred. It's not that the PID Silvia is unstable or "overheats" doing a series of shots, it just that passively heating the grouphead requires about 10 2oz pulls coming back up to temp between each pull to get the grouphead stabilized! Duh. Call me slow.

So it of course simply means if just pulling a single shot PID needs to be set differently than if planning to pull a half dozen back to back shots entertaining and when doing a bunch of back to back shots after resetting PID 8f lower than for an idle shot pull 10 2oz blanks before starting the series of real shots. Then those 6 or 10 or whatever back to back shots will be relatively intershot temp stable. It only took me almost 4 years with Miss Silvia for the lightbulb to turn on! :oops:
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Re: PID Silvia temp stability thoughts

Link to "PID Silvia temp stability thoughts"by Abe Carmeli on Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:31 pm

miKe mcKoffee wrote:"Life's Too Short To Drink Bad Coffee"


Life's too short to pull 10 blank shots in order to get a decent cup of coffee. :wink:
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Re: PID Silvia temp stability thoughts

Link to "PID Silvia temp stability thoughts"by miKe mcKoffee on Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:54 pm

Abe Carmeli wrote:Life's too short to pull 10 blank shots in order to get a decent cup of coffee. :wink:

I don't disagree! But it's a work around when entertaining until A) the GS3 is released to market and B) I've saved enough to buy it! :wink:

BTW, my recently finished first cup of the morning Kube's Estate Kona Americano (going to pull a cap in a sec), which was a single double pull, didn't require those 10 blanks shots, those are only needed when pulling back to back shots. YMMV of coure.
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Re: PID Silvia temp stability thoughts

Link to "PID Silvia temp stability thoughts"by Abe Carmeli on Sat Nov 19, 2005 1:14 pm

miKe mcKoffee wrote:I don't disagree! But it's a work around when entertaining until A) the GS3 is released to market and B) I've saved enough to buy it! :wink:


Just teasing you, of course. An upgrade is forever sweeter when you've earned it. Catering to the whims of a Silvia for so many years most definitely puts you in the sweeter category.
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Re: PID Silvia temp stability thoughts

Link to "PID Silvia temp stability thoughts"by AndyS on Sat Nov 19, 2005 3:19 pm

miKe mcKoffee wrote: It's not that the PID Silvia is unstable or "overheats" doing a series of shots, it just that passively heating the grouphead requires about 10 2oz pulls coming back up to temp between each pull to get the grouphead stabilized!


Hence the logic of actively heating Silvia's grouphead.
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Re: PID Silvia temp stability thoughts

Link to "PID Silvia temp stability thoughts"by miKe mcKoffee on Sat Nov 19, 2005 4:48 pm

AndyS wrote:Hence the logic of actively heating Silvia's grouphead.

Ok I'll bite. I've heard of it being done but have no idea how! Any place you can point me to? While I'm asking, anyone mod'd their Silvia with active pressure adj instead washer? (have mine currently washer sanded tuned to 8.5bar, was 7.5 before sanding)
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Re: PID Silvia temp stability thoughts

Link to "PID Silvia temp stability thoughts"by AndyS on Sat Nov 19, 2005 5:44 pm

miKe mcKoffee wrote:Ok I'll bite. I've heard of it being done but have no idea how! Any place you can point me to?


This is not an installation for the faint of heart. Here's a link to my original post about it on alt.coffee:
http://groups.google.co.in/group/alt.coffee/msg/48f5560fc4d1bf39

Here's a picture of the rope heater before it was puttied in place on top of Silvia's group:


Image

miKe mcKoffee wrote:While I'm asking, anyone mod'd their Silvia with active pressure adj instead washer? (have mine currently washer sanded tuned to 8.5bar, was 7.5 before sanding)


Some people have added rotary pumps, which allow easy pressure adjustment. Others are working on more sophisticated digital pressure control.
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Link to "PID Silvia temp stability thoughts"by miKe mcKoffee on Sat Nov 19, 2005 6:21 pm

Thanks Andy. I'm likely nuts enough to work on the grouphead pre-heater mod. I don't think I'll go as far as external rotary pump, more likely stay vibe until GS3 or ? ....
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Link to "PID Silvia temp stability thoughts"by AndyS on Sat Nov 19, 2005 6:32 pm

miKe mcKoffee wrote:Thanks Andy. I'm likely nuts enough to work on the grouphead pre-heater mod. I don't think I'll go as far as external rotary pump, more likely stay vibe until GS3 or ? ....


Also, since you're that nuts, you should preheat the boiler inlet water.
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Link to "PID Silvia temp stability thoughts"by miKe mcKoffee on Sat Nov 19, 2005 6:45 pm

AndyS wrote:
Also, since you're that nuts, you should preheat the boiler inlet water.

Yeah, I fully realize the benefit. Especially since seeing how the GS3 HXing the boiler feed from the steam boiler works so well. You using same type PID'd electric heater as for grouphead?
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Link to "PID Silvia temp stability thoughts"by AndyS on Sat Nov 19, 2005 6:50 pm

miKe mcKoffee wrote: You using same type PID'd electric heater as for grouphead?


I'm using a thermoblock heater from an old Krups espresso machine.
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Link to "PID Silvia temp stability thoughts"by miKe mcKoffee on Sat Nov 19, 2005 7:01 pm

AndyS wrote:
I'm using a thermoblock heater from an old Krups espresso machine.

How intra and intershot stable is your boiler PID'd, grouphead electric PID heated, boiler feed thermoblock heated Silvia?
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Link to "PID Silvia temp stability thoughts"by barry on Sat Nov 19, 2005 7:15 pm

don't forget to let the epoxy dry thoroughly before powering up the group heater.
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Link to "PID Silvia temp stability thoughts"by malachi on Sat Nov 19, 2005 7:40 pm

Barry... either you're naturally paranoid or you've got some scary "whoops" stories to tell!!
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Link to "PID Silvia temp stability thoughts"by barry on Sat Nov 19, 2005 7:53 pm

malachi wrote:Barry... either you're naturally paranoid or you've got some scary "whoops" stories to tell!!



iirc, someone at a.c had a moment of excitement....
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Link to "PID Silvia temp stability thoughts"by malachi on Sat Nov 19, 2005 7:55 pm

Sounds like an understatement...
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Link to "PID Silvia temp stability thoughts"by AndyS on Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:49 pm

barry wrote:

iirc, someone at a.c had a moment of excitement....


It's a water-based, heat-conductive putty, and sasha turned on the electricity before it had dried completely.

BANG!!!!

However, no equipment was harmed and everyone lived happily ever after.
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Link to "PID Silvia temp stability thoughts"by AndyS on Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:50 pm

miKe mcKoffee wrote:How intra and intershot stable is your boiler PID'd, grouphead electric PID heated, boiler feed thermoblock heated Silvia?


Approx ± 0.75F
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Link to "PID Silvia temp stability thoughts"by barry on Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:57 pm

AndyS wrote:
It's a water-based, heat-conductive putty, and sasha turned on the electricity before it had dried completely.

BANG!!!!

However, no equipment was harmed and everyone lived happily ever after.



i thought that was how he ended up with baby ruth!! <snicker> ;)
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Link to "PID Silvia temp stability thoughts"by miKe mcKoffee on Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:06 pm

AndyS wrote:
Approx ± 0.75F
Impressive. Sounds definitely well worth the effort.

BTW, Krups thermoblock like from an old Gusto or ? I'll have to start searching for one. I had a Gusto briefly I'd gotten to possibly use for travel but gave it away to a friend! I wonder if the parts needed could be ordered via spare parts...

The scary part is doesn't sound like a couple hour project. It won't be easy having Silvia out of commission for ANY length of time! Thoughts enter my head like just buy a new machine to use temporarily and return it under 30 day remorse policy, but I won't play that game, way uncool. Sure I could still brew vac or press or moka pot or turkish, but it ain't espresso!
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